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#3444352 - 08/03/14 12:15 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Clubber_Lang]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14699
Loc: Iowegia
Timeout got me again! eek

Below is a photo micrograph of the surface of grey cast iron, the material which is used in iron engine blocks and skillets:

Grey Cast Iron Surface

The surface is rough with very large "asperities," I.E., with little hills and valleys, because of the carbon inclusions and casting.

It's in these valleys that films of oil (or fats) move into.

In engines, the cylinder is purposely roughened (honed) so the oil film can get into the valleys and be present when the piston rings pass by.

Seasoning a skillet is simply getting a polyermerized layer of cooking oil or fat into those asperity valleys.

So it's these valleys that hold the film such that this film can only be removed by detergents or solvents.


Since words have meanings and proper definitions define those words, and since Dave5358 is incapable of giving proper definitions I'll attempt to supply a few:

Soak implies prolonged immersion in a fluid. I can immerse a piece of steel in a fluid, but that does not mean the fluid penetrated into the atomic structure of the steel. Immersion is from the Greek meaning to "completly cover" (over).

Saturate is a resulting effect of complete absorption of a liquid until no more liquid can be held, as in a sponge saturated with water. The porous cells of the sponge take up as much water as they can hold.

But solid metals are not sponges and are not porous. A sintered bearing IS porous and can hold oil, but is not a solid like cast iron or steel, and this is where Dave5358 and others get confused. You cannot equate a solid metal to a sintered material.

You cannot expect to immerse (soak) an engine block or any other solid metal in fluid and expect that fluid to permeate the atomic structure of that metal.

BTW, Permeate means to, "to diffuse through or penetrate something."

So no matter what Dave5358 incorrectly believes, or what some companies may advertise, oil films DO NOT diffuse; they do not permeate or penetrate into the metal below the surface.

Maybe Dave5358 has a crosssection or photo micrograph of his favorite fluid permeating below a solid metal surface. ???


Edited by MolaKule (08/03/14 12:23 AM)
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#3444364 - 08/03/14 12:38 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Clubber_Lang]
SirTanon Offline


Registered: 06/23/14
Posts: 81
Loc: Arizona, USA
So this argument has spread from the Z-max thread and now infected this one. Seriously guys, why does this need to happen?

We were talking about MMO. It's a great additive with some wonderful qualities. Do we need to start bickering over minutiae?
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#3444367 - 08/03/14 12:40 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Clubber_Lang]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3381
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
MMO haters are 50% people who wont hear of anything but AutoRx/Zmax/ect

Im not going to bash any of those as i have no experience or thorough knowledge of them


If by "hating" you mean those who don't blindly accept claims because some end user said it, or because they don't except what advertisements state, the figure would be higher.


No I mean people who criticize without knowledge


And they would be?
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#3444370 - 08/03/14 12:48 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: SirTanon]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3381
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
So this argument has spread from the Z-max thread and now infected this one. Seriously guys, why does this need to happen?

We were talking about MMO. It's a great additive with some wonderful qualities. Do we need to start bickering over minutiae?


We're talking about a product that hasn't changed from 1923 that was designed to use with leaded gasoline that people use with early 21st century oil formulations.

And now, not only do we have claims that it cleans better than current oils, we have claims that it penetrates *into* metal because it is "attracted" to metal.

So when you have claims by companies that say an oil diffuses into metal, and they are accepted by people who *don't* know better, then........ those of us who *do* know better can question it.

And if you go on and on about how great a product is, then you should have all the answers. At least IMHO.



Just because it hasn't killed a car engine doesn't mean it has any benefit.

ps, you don't need to use it as a UCL as the motor oil you do use serves the purpose.


Edited by Trajan (08/03/14 12:59 AM)
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#3444376 - 08/03/14 12:58 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Clubber_Lang]
MrQuackers Offline


Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 1095
Loc: Oregon
It's 8th dimension technology developed by Buckaroo Banzai and the Hong Kong Cavaliers. Deep stuff man. Can you dig it?
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#3444387 - 08/03/14 01:43 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Trajan]
Clubber_Lang Offline


Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 294
Loc: SC
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
MMO haters are 50% people who wont hear of anything but AutoRx/Zmax/ect

Im not going to bash any of those as i have no experience or thorough knowledge of them


If by "hating" you mean those who don't blindly accept claims because some end user said it, or because they don't except what advertisements state, the figure would be higher.


No I mean people who criticize without knowledge


And they would be?



people who have never tried it, or seen what it can do to clean an engine. Yes, it was developed in 1923. You know what was developed in 1911? The Colt 1911. Still very much useful and competitive with other autopistols today. Some would say superior.


Edited by Clubber_Lang (08/03/14 01:44 AM)
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#3444389 - 08/03/14 02:15 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Trajan]
rdalek Offline


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 126
Loc: Mississippi
Originally Posted By: Trajan
So when you have claims by companies that say an oil diffuses into metal, and they are accepted by people who *don't* know better, then........ those of us who *do* know better can question it.


Don't forget, one company in particular proved that "soaks into metal" claim in court and to the FTC. If one company can make that claim, which was proven, why is it that another product can't do the same thing as the first if it is tested and shown to do it?

It seems to come back to a point I have made before. You state your opinion as if it is fact. That is not the facts tho. It is just your opinion. When you state something as if it is fact, when it is proven to be otherwise, people are going to question your post. I know I will. Then at some point, people will start to question anything you post, as I do. With me, you have developed a history of stating some opinions as if they are facts. Now, anytime you post something, I have questions regarding any information you post. Since some of these claims have been proven in court and to the FTC, the burden of proof is on you. You prove that court and the claims wrong.

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#3444549 - 08/03/14 09:20 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Clubber_Lang]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14699
Loc: Iowegia
Quote:
rdalek: If one company can make that claim, which was proven, why is it that another product can't do the same thing as the first if it is tested and shown to do it?


Repetition and parroting unscientific claims does not make those claims true.

Now you are using false analogies in order to bolster your unscientific, unproven claims.


Edited by MolaKule (08/03/14 09:33 AM)
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#3444565 - 08/03/14 09:32 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: SirTanon]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 14699
Loc: Iowegia
Originally Posted By: SirTanon
So this argument has spread from the Z-max thread and now infected this one. Seriously guys, why does this need to happen?

We were talking about MMO. It's a great additive with some wonderful qualities. Do we need to start bickering over minutiae?


MMO was a fairly decent cleaning product in its day from API SB to about API SF oil classifications.

Quote:
Do we need to start bickering over minutiae?


Do we want to remain in the Dark Ages or do we want to progress our understanding of Marketing Claims and Advertising Hype verses Scientific truth??



Edited by MolaKule (08/03/14 09:33 AM)
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#3444633 - 08/03/14 11:05 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: rdalek]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3381
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: rdalek
Originally Posted By: Trajan
So when you have claims by companies that say an oil diffuses into metal, and they are accepted by people who *don't* know better, then........ those of us who *do* know better can question it.



If one company can make that claim, which was proven, why is it that another product can't do the same thing as the first if it is tested and shown to do it?



Making a claim does not equal proving a claim. Science tells us that this claim is not possible. Repeat it all you want, it does not, can not, or will not change the fact that it is impossible.
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#3444646 - 08/03/14 11:27 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: Trajan]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Science tells us that this claim is not possible. Repeat it all you want, it does not, can not, or will not change the fact that it is impossible.

That certainly wraps this up neatly.
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#3444650 - 08/03/14 11:32 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Soak implies prolonged immersion in a fluid. I can immerse a piece of steel in a fluid, but that does not mean the fluid penetrated into the atomic structure of the steel. Immersion is from the Greek meaning to "completly cover" (over).

So this is your scientific definition of 'soak' as in 'soaks into metal'? Please, what is your source on this? It sounds to me like a common sense definition - what you might find in a Webster's dictionary. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with that, but if it is a common sense definition, then readers should be aware there will be no scientific standard to test against. This isn't minutia - rather, it is simply debunking Molakule's endless army of straw man argumnts.

So, what is your source on this definition?

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But solid metals are not sponges and are not porous. A sintered bearing IS porous and can hold oil, but is not a solid like cast iron or steel, and this is where Dave5358 and others get confused. You cannot equate a solid metal to a sintered material.

You cannot expect to immerse (soak) an engine block or any other solid metal in fluid and expect that fluid to diffuse the atomic structure of that metal.

There's that "diffuse" word creeping into your argument. It's worse than athelete's foot. As anyone following this thread should be able to see by now, this is a totally bogus straw man, outside any claim made by either company. MMO said "penetrates metal" - Zmax "soaks into metal". Not diffuse and not permeate. Let's all keep our eye on the ball.

In a previous message, I said

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Anyone can read the results of the outside scientific tests and draw their own conclusions - I posted the links above. I would like to say the same for Molakule's scientific tests on anything or any subject. Perhaps he can fill that void.

Please refer us to something you have done or published in this field. There is nothing on SAE. There is nothing on WorldCat which catalogs numerous engineering and scientific societies and just about every scientific journal in the known universe. I note the M. E. LePera's list of public contributions is even longer if you search WorldCat.

And, please, something other than a publication on BITOG.
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#3444655 - 08/03/14 11:35 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But solid metals are not sponges and are not porous.

For anyone who has followed this thread, MMO claims to 'penetrate metal'. This MMO claim is related to Zmax as follows: Zmax claims to 'soak into metal'. Zmax, by their own statements and by laboratory analysis is >99% highly refined mineral oil. Depending on which source you consult, MMO is composed of 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard. Unless the stoddard solvent or lard magically thicken MMO by a significant amount, it too should soak into metal or 'penetrates metal' just as well or perhaps even better than Zmax. So, it should be productive to look closely at the Zmax claim and the evidence supporting it.

The actual lab testing of this specific Zmax claim was conceived and performed by Richard Shalvoy PhD, then on the faculty of Brown University. If you do a search of WorldCat Dr. Shalvoy is the author or co-author of numerous scientific articles, including
- The bond ionicity and structural stability of some average valence five materials studied by x-ray photoemission
- X-ray Photoemission Studies and Bonding in Amorphous Chalcogens (for the National Bureau of Standards)
- Catalytic conversion of alcohols - Attempt to correlate the ESCA oxygen 1s binding energy with the selectivity, Journal of the Chemical Society, Royal Society of Chemistry Journals
- Hydrogenation with anthranilic acid anchored, polymer-bound nickel catalysts, Journal of Organic Chemistry

However, Dr. Shalvoy has not published any articles on BITOG

Dr. Shalvoy did his research on Zmax at Arch Analytical Systems. His written results are not secret. Here is what he set out to do:

Originally Posted By: Richard Shalvoy PhD December 2001
INTRODUCTION
As a result of the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) involvement questioning the performance claims being made in a zMAX Infomercial, a need surfaced for an investigation that would provide some evidence of zMAX’s ability to become absorbed (i.e. to penetrate the surface) into metal components of internal combustion engines such as cylinder walls and piston skirts. zMAX is a proprietary hydrocarbon based product advertised to be pure micro-lubricating oil that treats the metal.

This report provides a summary of the investigation that was performed by Arch Analytical Services.

Please note Dr. Shavoy's choice of words: "become absorbed", "penetrate the surface". Nowhere to be found is Molakule's straw man of "diffuse"
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#3444656 - 08/03/14 11:36 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But solid metals are not sponges and are not porous.

Continuing on the exploration of 'soaks into metal' or 'penetrates metal':

Originally Posted By: Richard Shalvoy PhD December 2001
APPROACH
The approach taken was to see whether this absorption could actually be documented by first treating Cast Iron and Aluminum Alloy metal specimens with zMAX, then with a zMAX - Engine Oil Blend, and engine oil alone using a relatively simple static exposure protocol. Once treated, these metal specimens would then be analyzed using Auger Electron Spectroscopy (AES). The selection as to the type of Cast Iron and Aluminum Alloy to be used was based upon the metallurgy used in the piston assemblies and in the cylinder walls of internal combustion engines. AES was chosen as the analytical tool as it offered one opportunity short of radioactive tracers or neutron activation for determining whether any absorption had occurred.

The AES technique uses an electron beam to analyze the sample by exciting and measuring the secondary (Auger) electrons generated as the electron beam contacts the surface. The results of this initial scan is referred to as the "surface" analysis, as AES samples just the top 30-50 Ängstroms (i.e. 0.003 to 0.005 micrometers) of the samples surface. An Argon-ion etching gun is then used to rapidly "depth profile" through the surface layers to provide a continuous plot of composition with depth. These depth profiles can range down to a depth of 400 Ängstroms (i.e. 400 micrometers) or more beneath the surface. The results of a second scan after the depth profiling is referred to as an "etched" analysis.

One limitation that surfaced with using AES was the allowable size of the metal specimen to be analyzed. In discussions with Arch Analytical Services, the metal specimens had to be a specific size to fit into their AES instrumentation; that is 18 millimeters (mm) long, 9mm wide and 12.7 mm thick. This small size prevented using any removed sections from actual engine components that had been exposed to the zMAX treatment.

Problems encountered. Problems overcome.
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#3444657 - 08/03/14 11:40 AM Re: MMO, the real deal. [Re: MolaKule]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
But solid metals are not sponges and are not porous.

Continuing on the exploration of 'soaks into metal' or 'penetrates metal':

Originally Posted By: Richard Shalvoy PhD December 2001
THE EXPOSURE PROBLEM
In the absence of conducting engine testing, attempting to simulate the working combustion-temperature pressure environments that typically occur in automotive engines would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to recreate. Typical combustion pressures are probably in the range of 40 atmospheres and this would range depending upon the engine displacement, whether spark ignition or compression-ignition engines, whether naturally aspirated or turbocharged, etc. To attempt to simulate this environment would certainly necessitate some very specialized temperature and pressure chambers that would not be available at most laboratory facilities. Recognizing this, a relatively simple static exposure protocol was devised that involved alternate heating intervals at 100º C for 6 hours followed by intervals of cooling to room temperature (~22º C) for the remaining sixteen hours. This cycle was repeated for a total of five days giving the heating-cooling exposure time for the Cast Iron and Aluminum Alloy some one hundred and nineteen hours to either the zMAX, zMAX -engine oil blend or engine oil itself. At the completion of this five-day cycle, the specimens in the zMAX, zMAX -engine oil blend and engine oil were then allowed to remain immersed in the fluids at room temperature until being analyzed by AES.

The metal specimens selected for this investigation were provide by Metaspec, a well-known company in San Antonio, TX, that specializes in providing metal specimens for a wide variety of industry standard tests. The Cast Iron specimens were Gray Cast Iron (i.e. ASTM A48, Class 40 Iron) polished to a 280 grit. The Aluminum Alloy specimens were Cast Aluminum Alloy (i.e. ASTM B26, Alloy A319) also polished to a 280 grit. The zMAX Metal Treatment and a commercial engine oil randomly selected (i.e. Exxon Superflow SAE 5w-30, API SJ) were purchased at a Pep Boys Automotive Store in Woodbridge, VA, and then sent to Arch Analytical Services in Chesire, CT. Using the above mentioned exposure protocol, triplicate samples each of the two metal specimens were exposed in screw-top jars to (1) 100% Zmax, (2) a 10% Zmax-90% SAE 5w-30 blend, (3) the SAE 5w-30 itself and (4) a control (i.e. no liquids, but only to the alternate heating and cooling effects).

Another problem encountered. Another problem overcome.
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