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#3442953 - 08/01/14 02:51 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: bimmerdriver]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10058
Loc: PA
I can't explain something I didn't bring up and that doesn't seem relevant... shrug
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#3443008 - 08/01/14 03:44 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1065
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.


M3 is designed and built in Germany with European buyer in mind. No one buys M3 to go to the store or driving kids to kindegarten. Petrol is too dear to do that. These cars are driven here by die hard enthusiast who either don't drive it at all or by people who track them all the time. In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.
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#3443021 - 08/01/14 03:54 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 30539
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: chrisri
In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.

Like my brother-in-law, who drives his '13 M3 to work, 2 miles each away, and maybe to the grocery store on the weekend. That's about it, I think.

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#3443752 - 08/02/14 10:52 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12725
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
BMW also know that they make plenty of other cars that aren't much slower on the street and vastly more sensible in that environment. I'm especially thinking of CATERHAM's post about his encounter with a BMW engineer, who was confused when asked about oil choice for M3s that never see high oil temps. His response was something to the effect of "why not get a normal 3er then?"

More importantly though, I think "designed for"/"not designed for" is too black-and-white. It's a spectrum: Prius on one end, race car on the other, infinite shades in between. The E46 and E9x M3s are somewhere between Prius and race car, but farther from the "Prius" end than most street cars.


M3 is designed and built in Germany with European buyer in mind. No one buys M3 to go to the store or driving kids to kindegarten. Petrol is too dear to do that. These cars are driven here by die hard enthusiast who either don't drive it at all or by people who track them all the time. In US with cheap petrol, fairly cheap cars they become interesting to a wider public.



My M3 stickered for $73,375 + tax + gas guzzler fee when the original buyer snatched it up in early 2011. I wouldn't call that a "fairly cheap car." Our gas might be cheaper in the US, but an M3 is still expensive here. The new ones can pass $80k pretty easily.
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#3443775 - 08/02/14 11:26 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: dparm]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10058
Loc: PA
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.
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#3443820 - 08/02/14 12:16 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1065
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.


That was my point. I know that M car is not cheap anywhere but they are cheaper in US by a big margin. An M3 owner in US is similar to a 335d M Pack owner in Europe.


Edited by chrisri (08/02/14 12:17 PM)
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#3443848 - 08/02/14 12:56 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: stchman]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Back in 1991 I've used M1 10w60 SF in a Honda XLX600R I had, put with 1 k miles on the bike and run it until I sold it two years later at 14,5k miles. At that time I didn't know nothing about oil and the shearing up those VIIs at gears and wet clutches ... The guy who bought it ran for a few years and may have changed the oil soon. I did several dirty off road trips with it. At least for 13k miles the oil did fine.
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#3490573 - 09/22/14 09:40 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
Gtiguy34 Offline


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: worcester MA
But an S2000 does and that doesn't need fancy oil :-P

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#3490596 - 09/22/14 10:00 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: chrisri]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2602
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
His point was that cars are generally less expensive in the US than they are in the rest of the world, and that that makes Americans relatively more willing to put up with terrible fuel economy if they like the car otherwise.


That was my point. I know that M car is not cheap anywhere but they are cheaper in US by a big margin. An M3 owner in US is similar to a 335d M Pack owner in Europe.


M's are not exactly cheap in the US.

And, with the exception of the relatively prolific M3's, there aren't that many around.
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#3490597 - 09/22/14 10:01 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Gtiguy34]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2602
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: Gtiguy34
But an S2000 does and that doesn't need fancy oil :-P


That's because it doesn't make enough horsepower.
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#3496575 - 09/29/14 09:03 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: SilverC6]
Gtiguy34 Offline


Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: worcester MA
It was in reference to the piston speeds being similar to an F1 engine. They make plenty of horsepower.... Just not enough torque

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#3496601 - 09/29/14 09:48 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: SilverC6]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10058
Loc: PA
I suspect oil temps are more to the point there. The S2000 might not be generating enough heat to require a ridiculously thick oil.
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#3497416 - 09/30/14 06:55 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: d00df00d]
gatorfast Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 9
Loc: Fla
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I suspect oil temps are more to the point there. The S2000 might not be generating enough heat to require a ridiculously thick oil.


Good point. But the M3's S65 engine which is specd for 10-60 runs at an operating temp of 210F which is certainly not high.
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#3497424 - 09/30/14 07:09 AM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: gatorfast]
d00df00d Online   content


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10058
Loc: PA
I'm pretty sure the 10w-60 is more for the max temps than for the typical temps. In other words, it's to make sure you're okay in the middle of a hard track session on a hot summer day, not during mild use on the daily commute.

IF -- and I'm not sure if this is true, but IF -- the S2000 doesn't heat its oil as much as the M3 does under those conditions, that might partly explain the difference in oil specs.
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#3498371 - 09/30/14 10:19 PM Re: BMW and the 10W60 thing???!!! [Re: Gtiguy34]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2602
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: Gtiguy34
It was in reference to the piston speeds being similar to an F1 engine. They make plenty of horsepower.... Just not enough torque


237 HP is not plenty.

Two of the little 2.2 liter 4 cylinders hooked together wouldn't make plenty of horsepower.

And I think my Kohler powered lawn mower puts out more than 162 ft-lbs of torque.
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