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#3425476 - 07/15/14 12:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1114
Loc: Florida
No mention of fuel mileage and costs. Clearly must be more expensive than diesel. Taxpayers going to subsidize this project as well?
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2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
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#3426217 - 07/16/14 07:00 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Well, if you read the article, you would see who was funding the project. It was pretty open about that in the article. But both the Cummins 2.8L project and the GM 3.2L project have both yielded better mpg numbers at the same power level as comparable diesel varieties. And then there is the reduced amount of emissions equipment due to no need for SCR or DPF with E85 engines. And in GM's case, they clearly state a 400 lb net weight savings using the 3.2L EBDI E85 fueled engine than the Duramax diesel in the 3500HD pickup.

And everything gets subsidized by the tax payers eventually. Either government is the one who gives it or any number of companies provide funding, but they got that funding money from the buyers of their goods and services. Just like NASCAR, the US Olympic team, and hundreds of other entities get funding for stuff. Just look at Mobil Oil... they are a major funding source for NASCAR and trucking shows including top name entertainment at commercial truck jamborees, shows, and such. Anyone who buys a quart of Mobil is paying for that. Since roughly 48% of Americans had no Federal Income Tax last year, the government sourcing for any subsidies, if there were any, are not being laid on every potential tax payer out here.

Still a little confused about something though.... ethanol made from sugar from sugar cane is better than ethanol made from sugar from corn. And it is the sugars and starches from the corn that go into making ethanol. But sugar cane has, what, for additional products that can be used for food and other products? Whereas corn has a laundry list of additional products that are made from the same kernel of corn that went into producing ethanol. So the confusion is in how is making ethanol from corn such a bad thing than making it from any other sugar source? Sure, the amount of sugar in sugar cane is higher than corn, but what other major food and industrial products are made from sugar cane?

So on a sugar for sugar level, yes, sugar cane is more efficient for making ethanol. But other than that, it is just sugar. No other real major food products. Corn used for ethanol on the other hand, while less of a sugar source, is also a major source of high and low protein gluten, corn oil, high fructose corn syrup, and other products. So to equate cane sugar ethanol production with corn ethanol production is not a one for one, pound per pound, kind of thing. Now, if only ethanol was made or used from the corn going into ethanol production, then one might be able to make a viable case to the inefficiency of corn ethanol.
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#3428700 - 07/18/14 07:30 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1114
Loc: Florida
It's not about corn or sugar products. It's about energy. For corn if you use 1 unit of energy you get out 1.X(last number I saw was 1.3) units of energy. While sugar gets you 8+ with that unit of energy. I'm sure sugar ethanol production has usable byproducts just like corn. Corn ethanol was sold as a way to increase energy. Something it's clearly not very good at doing considering the land, fertilizers, chemicals, impact on food supply, etc it take to produce.


Edited by hatt (07/18/14 07:33 PM)
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#3428982 - 07/19/14 03:33 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
TT, so you can get HFCS out of the corn AFTER you've made ethanol out of it...that's what you're saying, but I would have thought that the sugars were all consumed in making the ethanol in the first place.

A little bt of rudimentary research and you would know:
* that Bagasse, the stalk material left over produces about 3% of Brazil's electricity
* ever heard of a product called mollasses ?...someone as versed in ag as yourself would know of it's uses in animal feed and supplementation.

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#3441586 - 07/31/14 11:21 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt
It's not about corn or sugar products. It's about energy. For corn if you use 1 unit of energy you get out 1.X(last number I saw was 1.3) units of energy. While sugar gets you 8+ with that unit of energy. I'm sure sugar ethanol production has usable byproducts just like corn. Corn ethanol was sold as a way to increase energy. Something it's clearly not very good at doing considering the land, fertilizers, chemicals, impact on food supply, etc it take to produce.


You would be correct on all the associated costs of production, if all we were using the corn for was ethanol. It would be a pretty poor trade off. But most of the corn that is targeted toward ethanol production is used for other purposes as well. If we break down the the percentages, the costs of corn production is balanced in regards to ethanol. And when you run the percentages on a net use basis, ethanol production only uses about a net 17.5 percent of the total corn production. When you factor out the 20% of corn production that goes toward human consumption, and you factor that 40% of the remaining 80% of the crop is targeted toward ethanol, and of that 40%, 35% of it is returned to feed supplements and other uses. In the end, it is roughly 18% of the entire corn crop that gets used for ethanol. When you divide the corn production costs out on this percentage, ethanol is really not the evil ogre it is made out to be regarding fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, and fuel costs to produce.

And land use for corn production is not needed as much as one would think. Average corn yields on a per acre basis are multitudes above what they were just a decade ago. A farmer in Illinois last year, set the new all time record for average corn yield per acre... over 450 bushels per acre average. We are able to produce much more corn, on the same land. Hybrids are wonderful things sometimes. And most farmers do it while using less intensive farming techniques like low till and no till farming. Farmers around me have been on no till farming methods for years, cutting massive waste, both fuel and environmental, in crop production.

The farming dynamics are changing so rapidly, that a year can make a monumental difference. Unfortunately, most articles and other stuff written about this for the general populace is outdated to say the least.
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#3441676 - 07/31/14 12:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1114
Loc: Florida
How much corn we're using for this and that has no bearing on the energy conversion rate. We aren't getting much energy out of the equation.
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#3442572 - 08/01/14 08:10 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Cows eat grass efficiently...growing corn on pasture, then messing with it, then feeding it to cows to get a worse health (cow and human) result in protein and fatty acid profile only gives the greenies ammunition against eating meat.

Yes, Cows get less flatulence eating distillers grains than corn...but they shouldn't be eating grain in the first place.

Using animal feed to justify ethanol is plain farcical.

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#3442609 - 08/01/14 09:03 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Using animal feed to justify ethanol is plain farcical.

Remember, though, Shannow, that some grain pretty much has to be used as animal feed of some sort since, depending on weather and growing conditions, grain may only grade as a feed grade, rather than human food grade. We get that here on occasion, although it's not a huge problem. Of course, there's virtually no corn grown in this province. If cattle are being fed grain (in conjunction with ethanol production or not), it's most likely to be wheat or barley in feed grades.
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Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3442632 - 08/01/14 09:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1114
Loc: Florida
Chickens and pigs can eat grain without a problem. For most of a cow's life they're grass fed. They only see grain on the feedlots for a few months between the ranch and plastic wrap.
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#3443177 - 08/01/14 06:44 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Couple of weeks on grain, and the entire lifetime of fatty acid profiles on grass (good, Omega 3s etc.) is screwed up in favor of 6s ...which makes bad human food. Similarly, the fact that chicken and pigs CAN eat grain, they end up poor human food compared to a non grain diet.

It's got to be obvious, given that we've evolved alongside these anuimals, and only with the advent of subsidised markets grain feeding is a modern, ill conceived (but highly profitable) idea...provides fodder to animal libbers, and is being used to justify ethanol.

Traditional means of cold weather feed like silage produce a nutritionally better product...gets forced out as being too expensive when wooed by the grain lobby (*)

Milk from (almost exclusively) grain fed cattle is an abomination compared to grass.

(*) former workmate left to take over family farm, started using the farm to produce hay/silage, and computerised management systems for growth etc. ... flown around the country, wined and dined by grain lobby, who convinced him to convert to the more "predictable" growth with intensive grain feeding (not finishing), and grass/silage became a supplementary feed...then changed the price structure such that he needed the high intensity overproduction, and could never get back to "farming" rather than feedlotting.

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#3443186 - 08/01/14 06:55 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Shannow]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's got to be obvious, given that we've evolved alongside these anuimals, and only with the advent of subsidised markets grain feeding is a modern, ill conceived (but highly profitable) idea...provides fodder to animal libbers, and is being used to justify ethanol.

Here, there isn't the subsidy issue. Heck, there isn't even a lot of grain fed cattle. Some are dealt with that way, in conjunction with the ethanol processes or not. And, of course, the ethanol process can occur here, too, without the involvement of cattle.

In the end, something has to be done with feed grain, and given its low price, there aren't a lot of money making options for the farming industry.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3443204 - 08/01/14 07:18 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Oh, I agree that the production of "food" is the race to the bottom to keep a pound of beef on the plate for everyone every day and a gallon of milk in the fridge.

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#3443485 - 08/02/14 12:28 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1081
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Let's see.... what wildlife doesn't eat grain as a natural component of their diet? Deer, Pheasants, quail, squirrels, rabbits, you name it. Grain is not just a farming thing, all grasses and legumes make grain, which is just seeds. And animals have eaten it since the dawn of time. So feeding grain (seeds) to cattle, chickens, turkeys, swine, etc is not natural and shouldn't be done? Somehow, they never got the memo.

You ought to see the number of critters and birds the make pilgrimages to the grain bin between my house and the barn after we put in or remove grain. There is always some spillage, and it sure attracts the critters from rabbits to possums to raccoons at night (occasionally a brave deer) and birds all day long. They didn't get the grain isn't natural and they shouldn't eat it memo either.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3443502 - 08/02/14 12:53 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27047
Loc: a prison island
Tiredtrucker rolls out the "grain is grass" barrow again...c'mon, even you can't buy that...

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#3446964 - 08/05/14 04:45 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
One other of the major advantages of sugar cane ethanol, is that the biomass byproducts (bagasso) is what feed the powerplant, not other fuel/electricity. So all the substance are used up to make the alcohol. That keeps cost down, also making a more efficient production.
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