War in Ukraine

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http://www.pravda.ru/news/world/01-08-2014/1219408-ukraina-0/

CNN described the use of ballistic missiles Ukraine for attacks on the militia on July 29.

In other words Russia reported that Ukraine used ballistic missiles on "ethnic Russians". Russia also reports this attack was confirmed by NATO. This is the Russian response to U.S. reports of Russia firing rockets from Russia to support actions in eastern Ukraine.
 
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I smell "desperation".

Just saw Barry Soetoro on TV speaking about the Ukraine and how terrible Russia is for protecting it's sphere of influence, but noticed that he didn't speak of how the US illegally and deliberately attacked a sovereign nation without cause, Iraq, and literally destroyed a ancient nation throwing it into despair and chaos for decades to come. Hypocrite.




I implore you to make this statement to the Iraqi men that lost their fathers under Saddam's dictatorship taken by members of the Ba'ath party and never seen alive again or simply never seen again. I recommend you are wearing your running shoes when you tell them this.

Also what does Iraq have to do with Ukraine. Are you a citizen of Iraq?


Red herrings it sounds like. Unless Iraqi troops are pouring into Ukraine, I don't see any connection.
 
I can't believe that this thread is still running, since it was political on page 1.i might as well start a thread to easily prove, in 2 paragraphs, that creation is a fairy tale.
maybe the mods are letting it slide because the posts have been civil in nature.who knows.
have a good night, all.
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan
To say nothing of the following.

The Obersalzberg speech, 8/22/39

Our strength consists in our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state. It’s a matter of indifference to me what a weak western European civilization will say about me. I have issued the command – and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks to-day of the annihilation of the Armenians

3-18-2014 Crimea
Everything in Crimea speaks of our shared history and pride. This is the location of ancient Khersones, where Prince Vladimir was baptised. His spiritual feat of adopting Orthodoxy predetermined the overall basis of the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Crimea is Balaklava and Kerch, Malakhov Kurgan and Sapun Ridge. Each one of these places is dear to our hearts, symbolising Russian military glory and outstanding valour.
Colleagues,
In people’s hearts and minds, Crimea has always been an inseparable part of Russia. This firm conviction is based on truth and justice and was passed from generation to generation, over time, under any circumstances, despite all the dramatic changes our country went through during the entire 20th century.
3-15-1938 Austria
Germany’s mission as though it is something grand that all German people should be fighting for. Time of change has taken place which we are witnessing today that will be up to the future generation to value it. It has often been stated that we have to fulfill our mission, shall and must be fulfilled. Just praised hail to Austria…the German Reich, which has been united into the German nation.”
 
www.pravda.ru/news/world/formerussr/ukraine/01-08-2014/1219344-ukraina-0


Now Pravda is reporting Ukraine has fired artillery into Russia this happened on July 25, 2014. I do not understand if this happened a week ago. Why is the first report today?

"Plan declassified military provocation against Russia Ukraine"

"the territory of Russia periodically shelled from the Ukrainian side. The other day, July 25, in the territory of Russia once again bombarded with Ukrainian products. About 45 shells exploded while in the territory of the farm Primiussky Kuibyshev district of Rostov region. In addition, under the impact bombardment from Ukraine got the investigation team of the Russian IC."
 
Michael Hudson: IMF is pushing Ukraine to ‘voluntary suicide’
July 12, 2014 / roger / No comments

Interview with economist Michael Hudson, on Russia Today, July 07, 2014. Michael Hudson is Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri.

Rally earlier this year in Ukraine under the theme ‘No to currency slavery’, photo RIA Novosti

Western support will allow more IMF and European lending to prop the Ukrainian currency so the Ukrainian oligarchs can move their money safely to British and US banks, economist and author Michael Hudson tells Russia Today’s Truthseeker.

Russia Today: Could you summarize for us the tried and tested steps that will lead from IMF loans, to Ukraine’s best assets ending up in private Western hands – the IMF’s ‘knee-breaker’ role as you memorably described it as?

Michael Hudson: The basic principle to bear in mind is that finance today is war by non-military means. The aim of getting a country in debt is to obtain its economic surplus, ending up with its property. The main property to obtain is that which can produce exports and generate foreign exchange. For Ukraine, this means mainly the Eastern manufacturing and mining companies, which presently are held in the hands of the oligarchs. For foreign investors, the problem is how to transfer these assets and their revenue into foreign hands – in an economy whose international payments are in chronic deficit as a result of the failed post-1991 restructuring. That is where the IMF comes in.

The IMF was not set up to finance domestic government budget deficits. Its loans are earmarked to pay foreign creditors, mainly to maintain a country’s exchange rate. The effect usually is to subsidize flight capital out of the country – at a high exchange rate rather than depositors and creditors getting fewer dollars or euro. In Ukraine’s case, foreign creditors would include Gazprom, which already has been paid something. The IMF transfers a credit to its “Ukraine account,” which then pays foreign creditors. The money never really gets to Ukraine or to other IMF borrowers. It is paid to the accounts of foreigners, including foreign government creditors, as in IMF loans to Greece. Such loans come with “conditionalities” that impose austerity. This in turn drives the economy even further into debt – forcing the government to tighten the budget even more, run even smaller budget deficits and sell off public assets.

RT: Can Ukraine expect the so-called ‘IMF effect’ of 1 in 5 of the impoverished population emigrating to work abroad, and what consequence could this have on a country to lose its brightest minds?

MH: Ukraine already draws in foreign emigrants’ remittances equal to about 4% of its GDP. (About $10 billion a year.) Most of this money comes from Russia, the rest from Western Europe. The effect of IMF austerity plans is to drive more Ukrainians to emigrate in search of work. They will send some of their earnings back to their families, strengthening the Ukrainian currency vis-à-vis the ruble and euro.

RT: How are the IMF’s tools in reality “weapons of mass destruction” as you quoted it?

MH: Lower budget deficits cause even deeper austerity and unemployment. The result is a downward economic spiral. Lower incomes mean lower tax revenues. So governments are told to balance their budgets by selling off public assets – mainly natural monopolies whose buyers can raise excess prices to extract economic rent. The effect is to turn the economy into a renting “tollbooth economy.” Hitherto free public roads are turned into toll roads, and other transportation, water and sewer systems also are privatized. This raises the cost of living, and hence the cost of labor – while overall wage levels are squeezed by the financial austerity that shrinks markets and raises unemployment.

RT: The IMF’s perhaps also a weapon of mass destruction in a more literal sense. The organization has publicly threatened and blackmailed Ukraine that it will ‘re-design’ its aid package, unless Kiev goes to war on fellow Ukrainians in the East of the country and stops them protesting. Does that not make it now literally a criminal accomplice or instigator of war and murder?

MH: The IMF’s “conditionality” is that it “pacify” the East. Pacification may occur violently in today’s Orwellian rhetoric. The only way in which actual political and economic peace can be achieved is by a loose federalization of Ukraine, to make each region independent of the kleptocrats in Kiev, who are appointed mainly from the West.

As for accusations of criminality, this always depends on who is the prosecutor, and what is the court! No country has yet prosecuted the IMF. All that voters can do is reject governments submitting to IMF conditionalities. Many voters who are able will “vote with their feet” and simply leave the sinking economy. So the IMF’s defense is that Ukraine and other clients are voluntarily committing suicide rather than being murdered. Austerity is ultimately a policy – nobody is holding gun to their head, except when political leaders are assassinated as in Chile in 1974 under Pinochet with the US Government behind it. In this sense, Ukraine today is a replay of Chile four decades ago.

Photo: Participants in the nationwide Ukrainian rally against bank outrage and for the rights of borrowers under the slogan “No to currency slavery!” by the building of Ukraine’s Verkhovna Rada. (RIA Novosti)

RT: Everyone knows austerity’s effects on Greece and elsewhere; polls show most Ukrainians don’t want it; even the IMF itself now admits austerity doesn’t work. Why will Ukraine’s leaders allow it to happen, are they guaranteed a cushy job in the West when they’ve voted out or something?

MH: Ukraine’s leaders are mainly kleptocrats. Their aim is not to help the country, but to help consolidate their own power. George Soros has written that their best way to do this is to find Western partners. This will provide US and European backing for the kleptocrats tightening their hold on the economy. Western support will provide more IMF and European lending to support the currency so that the Ukrainian oligarchs can move their money safely to the West, to British banks and US banks.

RT: Do you think that the EU isn’t stupid enough to make Ukraine a full member, so under the one-sided association agreement, member states will just strip the country of its best assets, and use its workers as near slave labor, with Ukraine’s 91 US cents an hour minimum wage?

MH: The EU hardly can really make Ukraine a member. One reason is that a key policy underlying French and German creation of the original Common Market in 1957 was the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). Ukraine has rich Western land, and that part of the country is largely still rural. Foreign investors would like to buy it out and “re-feudalize” it, creating large business farms. But the EU is unlikely to provide the subsidies that financed mechanization and capital investment in Western European agriculture.

The EU does not need to formally integrate with Ukraine to benefit from its inexpensive labor. Wrecking the economy Greek-style or Irish-style or Latvian-style is sufficient to send its workers to the West. And the most mobile traditionally are the best educated youth in their 20s, able to speak foreign languages and with skills in demand in the West.

RT: You noted Ukraine ‘must have asked the US first’ before blowing up that gas pipeline. Do you think NATO will support anything even terrorism to make Russian gas seem less reliable, especially while US fracking giants currently are waging a big PR campaign in Europe.

MH: The US has pressed Europe to make its own economy much more high-cost and to rely on US gas exports mainly in order to deprive Russia of foreign exchange. The NATO rationale is essentially that which Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk tweeted on Monday, June 16: Ukraine “won’t continue subsidizing Gazprom [to the tune of] $5 billion annually, so that Russia can arm itself against us [with this money].”

The US position today is what it was in 1991: Without manufacturing, Russia cannot be a serious military power to defend itself. And without purchasing foreign technology and without large state subsidy – as US and European governments provide their own economies – Russia cannot create a manufacturing economy. So NATO is trying to prevent Russia from earning enough money to modernize its economy, on the principle that any industrial power is potentially military, and any military power my potentially be used to achieve political independence from the US sphere.

RT: Anything else you would like to add?

MH: What is at issue is whether economies throughout the world will let financial leverage dismantle the power of elected governments, and hence of democracy. Governments are sovereign. No government actually needs to pay foreign debts or submit to policies that negate the three definitions of a state: to create its own money, to levy taxes, and to declare war.

At issue is who shall rule the world: the emerging 1% as a financial oligarchy, or elected governments. The two sets of aims are antithetical: rising living standards and national independence, or a renting economy, austerity and international dependency
.
 
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So can you please explain how an economist that subscribes to the concept of the gift economy would give an accurate and probable interview to the Russian media?

Or do you not know the historical ties between Russia and the concept of gift economy?
 
Looks like the Ukrainian gov't is supporting the ethnic cleansing of Russians in Donbass.


There is a category of people who have to be simply killed (c) Butkevich

cassad_eng
July 31st, 19:12

Yet another conscious degenerate on Hromadske TV proves that there is no fascism in Ukraine by calling for elimination of the unnecessary residents of Donbass.

This is what they were jumping for in Maidan – for murdering certain categories of people.

http://youtu.be/J2vBdyszP5M

Translation:
So you asked how can it be this way.
It can be this way because Donbass in general is a region that... well... it is not just a depressive region. You see, there is such a huge complex of problems... The main thing is that there is a huge number of absolutely unnecessary people in economy there (@0:15).
Trust me, I say this fully consciously.
So let's take just the Donetsk region there are approximately 4 million population there. No less than 1.5 million there are simply unnecessary people (@0:20).
What else do I want to say. We don't need to "understand" Donbass. We need to understand in general the Ukrainian national interest. And Donbass needs to be just used as a resource. (@0:28).
From the point of view of understanding Donbass. I think... I don't have a recipe of what can be done there quickly. However, the main thing that needs to be done there right now no matter how cruel this may sound... there is a certain category of people who need to be simply killed. (@0:40)
 
One it is a youtube video.
Second this is from the same sources I have provided on this thread that have reported that NATO has confirmed the Ukrainian government has launched ballistic missiles from Kiev to Donbas.
Third The same sources reported that Ukrainian forces have attacked Russia
crazy2.gif
with heavy artillery and rockets on July 25th!

Third alone discredits the validity of their claims until they are redeemed. Because if Ukraine fired heavy artillery and rockets to attack Russia you and I would not be discussing this topic right now.
 
Also you still have not answered the last question. Or the previous one. Or the previous one before that.
I lost count on how many questions you have failed to answer.

This is important because without answering the questions your posts are nearly impossible to prove of being probable.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I smell "desperation".

Just saw Barry Soetoro on TV speaking about the Ukraine and how terrible Russia is for protecting it's sphere of influence, but noticed that he didn't speak of how the US illegally and deliberately attacked a sovereign nation without cause, Iraq, and literally destroyed a ancient nation throwing it into despair and chaos for decades to come. Hypocrite.

Regarding why I mention that my country is no longer a "nation" and only a ployglot is because our own Founding Fathers spoke of
their "posterity" in the Preamble to the US Constitution.
Dave1251 you need to do some studying and look up what the
Founding Fathers intended when they spoke of "their posterity"
and it doesn't include those from any other tribe other than their own tribe. That fact is something that never becomes obsolete.


I think the irony here is that you seem to be implying that the US has been, in recent time, as compassionate and destructive as Nazi Germany. However, if you were to present yourself as you do during the late 30's and early 40's in Germany you would have worn a bullet to the skull so quickly that you wouldn't even have had the time to create a forum for which to convey your opinions or participate in one where you hoped to find individuals of like-mindedness. In that reality, it shows that what you THINK to be the case is a great departure from reality.

You don't have the foggiest idea of what it was like to live under a dictator like Hitler or Stalin. What it was like to love, hate and fear them. The conflict in your heart and mind you felt to be a part of that population.

Many, MANY people died so you could sit here in your living room in your undies and [censored] about what a [censored] hole your nation has become. You have the FREEDOM to make a difference if you so choose. That's a [censored] of a lot more than anybody living under the sort of totalitarian reign that you think you are under has.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
I smell "desperation".

Just saw Barry Soetoro on TV speaking about the Ukraine and how terrible Russia is for protecting it's sphere of influence, but noticed that he didn't speak of how the US illegally and deliberately attacked a sovereign nation without cause, Iraq, and literally destroyed a ancient nation throwing it into despair and chaos for decades to come. Hypocrite.

Regarding why I mention that my country is no longer a "nation" and only a ployglot is because our own Founding Fathers spoke of
their "posterity" in the Preamble to the US Constitution.
Dave1251 you need to do some studying and look up what the
Founding Fathers intended when they spoke of "their posterity"
and it doesn't include those from any other tribe other than their own tribe. That fact is something that never becomes obsolete.


I think the irony here is that you seem to be implying that the US has been, in recent time, as compassionate and destructive as Nazi Germany. However, if you were to present yourself as you do during the late 30's and early 40's in Germany you would have worn a bullet to the skull so quickly that you wouldn't even have had the time to create a forum for which to convey your opinions or participate in one where you hoped to find individuals of like-mindedness. In that reality, it shows that what you THINK to be the case is a great departure from reality.

You don't have the foggiest idea of what it was like to live under a dictator like Hitler or Stalin. What it was like to love, hate and fear them. The conflict in your heart and mind you felt to be a part of that population.

Many, MANY people died so you could sit here in your living room in your undies and [censored] about what a [censored] hole your nation has become. You have the FREEDOM to make a difference if you so choose. That's a [censored] of a lot more than anybody living under the sort of totalitarian reign that you think you are under has.


I typed out a long reply to this, but thought better of it. Why? Because I completely agree with this. There is *no freaking way* that one can compare the US to the Third Reich or Stalin's Russia and come out thinking that the first is as bad, or anywhere near as bad, the other two.

In the meantime, I'll get back to reading "Soviet Criminal Justice under Stalin."
 
LOL, this reminds me all the trolls on this very threads talking how USA is socialist or even communist country.

Those people apparently never traveled abroad and have no clue what they are talking about.

I was raised in a communist country before immigrating to USA and can tell you that USA, not without huge problems and closer and closer to circling the drain in the economic terms, have no problems with socialism or communism yet.

Sure I'm not happy about many questionable policies (started by the previous administration BTW), but the anti-president trolls here don't have to worry about being lockup in prisons, like in a real communist states.

On the other hand, dare you to say loudly something against putin on the Moscow's red square and see how much freedom they have over there.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
A lot of people in this thread have their head stuck in the sand.


Apparently not you, as you are better than anyone else.
 
By JIM KUHNHENN Associated Press
Obama, Putin Discuss Ukraine, Missile Treaty
Capping a week of aggressive action against Russia, President Barack Obama pressed Russian President Vladimir Putin Friday for a diplomatic path out of Ukraine's struggle with Moscow-backed pro-Russian separatists. Putin countered by calling U.S. and European economic sanctions against Russia counterproductive.
 
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