Truck Double Standard

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Originally Posted By: itguy08

Not to make this a slam against Subaru (like their cars) but it's not the same ground clearance as an F150:

http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/outback/2014/features-specs.html
GROUND CLEARANCE 0 ft. 8.7 in. (8.7 in.)
ANGLE OF APPROACH 18.3 degrees
ANGLE OF DEPARTURE 22.2 degrees

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/f-150/2014/features-specs.html?style=200489509
GROUND CLEARANCE 0 ft. 9 in. (9 in.)
Ford's Approach angle for a 4x4 Supercrew is 25.8
Ford's Departure angle for a 4x4 Supercrew is 24.7

The Jeep is close:
http://www.edmunds.com/jeep/grand-cherokee/2014/features-specs.html?style=200462923
GROUND CLEARANCE 0 ft. 8.6 in. (8.6 in.)
ANGLE OF APPROACH 26.3 degrees
ANGLE OF DEPARTURE 26.5 degrees

The Subaru might get the job done but I can imagine some circumstances where you would need that extra .3" of clearance and better angles of the F150. Or the even better still angles of the Jeep.

I personally don't care what anyone drives. It's their right to buy what they like and can afford.


That's actually a lot closer than I thought it was.

Cheers to the last two sentences.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: glock19

I don't doubt your need for a truck and you're correct when you say you're not going to haul all that stuff in a Subaru. However, traversing the obstacles you mentioned would be no problem. People seem to forget than an Outback has the same ground clearance as an F-150 or Grand Cherokee.


As I stated, someone is more than welcome to bring a Subaru out to my place and cross over the conservation terraces on my property with it. I will provide the food and drink to watch this one. And many of the snow drifts on the gravel road, before the county gets around to clearing them off, have to be hit at a good speed to even hope of getting a pickup thru them. And my pickup is slightly lifted. Those that aren't familiar with situations like this, it is not like tackling a snow drift on a city street for sure. it isn't because we are a bunch of hay seed hicks out here in the country that we own those gas guzzling pickups. And it sure isn't to impress the neighbors. It is a necessity. On occasion, someone gets hurt and they need to be taken to medical attention right away. Those situations are rare, but we don't wait for them to happen to then realize we should have bought something that could handle what we need to get thru.

Oh, and it isn't because the "idiot" on the tractor didn't remember to top off that fuel is brought out to the field, it is because a lot of work is being done and it isn't practical to bring a combine during harvest clear back to the main building to fuel and then run all the way back to the field. I am sure many have met up with a combine on the highway at some time. And driving it back and forth is wasteful of both time and fuel. Likewise, it is not practical to drive a D6 Cat dozer back to the fuel barrel to fill up, when it is doing a job several miles away. You have to take the fuel to them. The state would not look too highly on driving a D6 Cat on the road. I realize many folks have limited experience with such things, so it might be best if they hold off taking pot shots.


X2

I live in a city but I work in construction. I just had 100 pre cuts in the back of my truck today, followed by 1,500 pounds of flooring, than a bunch of firewood. All in a days work.

What people who don't do it just don't know is a car, say a Subaru pulling a trailer for example may be able to do that for a homeowner a couple of times a year. But if you beat on it every day stuff breaks. They are lightly built, since its a car built to return good fuel mileage.

Their is a reason pickups (and most other real off road and commercial vehicles) are still body on frame with live axles, you can carry a lot of weight off road and do it every single day. A lightly made, on road vehicle with a uni-body and thin tires simply cannot stand up to that kind of service.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mykl
^ I think the problem is that for everybody who doesn't live on a farm, I believe it's fair to say "most people", that "one trick pony" Subaru is beyond sufficient.

I know what it's like to need an honest-to-God work pickup as a utility vehicle on a farm. You're not going to use an Outback to haul a fuel drum out to the middle of a tilled field because the idiot in a tractor wasn't paying attention to the fuel level. But if those were the only people who bought trucks they wouldn't consist of such a large percentage of vehicles on the road right now.

Most of the people I know who have full size trucks live in a suburban home working their city jobs, mostly office workers. These people have trucks because they like trucks, and that's cool. But if any one of them told me that they "needed" that truck, I'd break out a dictionary and show them that the word "need" doesn't mean what they think it means.


Sure, but almost everyone of any means buys more vehicle than he "needs" An off-lease Subaru Forrester will get that neurosurgeon to the operating theater just fine. The Secretary who buys a Nissan Sentra could probably get along with a two year old Hyundai Accent. The buyer of a Prius would probably save money during his term of ownership by buying a Nissan Versa.

Of course there's an image with trucks that helps to sell them, but there is also the circumstance of a hotly competitive segment where the buyer gets a lot for his money. For the past four years the bottom of the line Ford F-150 had 300 hp. That would have been unthinkable ten years ago. My newish pickup is pretty darn ungainly, truth be told, even in regular cab short-bed trim, but its capability is just off the charts. Today's 1/2 ton truck is more like a 3/4 ton truck from a few years ago--whether we need that or not.

Unlike most passenger cars, a truck can segue from first vehicle, to second, to third. Dad (a suburbanite) bought a 1970 pickup truck and kept it until 1996 or so as a second then a third car. That's not unusual for a pickup truck. Stepping off the trade-in tread-mill is a real savings over time.

In an ideal world, a Nissan Frontier or Toyota Tacoma would be a better fit for suburbanites like me, but those vehicles are simply obsolescent, (nearly the same mpg, and price much less capability) and poor value.

As to the stima? Well, I'd say truck buyers are a target rich environment. There is a lot of nuttiness right now. It will go out of fashion in a little while, but they will still be selling a lot of trucks for the reasons I mentioned.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: glock19

I don't doubt your need for a truck and you're correct when you say you're not going to haul all that stuff in a Subaru. However, traversing the obstacles you mentioned would be no problem. People seem to forget than an Outback has the same ground clearance as an F-150 or Grand Cherokee.


As I stated, someone is more than welcome to bring a Subaru out to my place and cross over the conservation terraces on my property with it. I will provide the food and drink to watch this one. And many of the snow drifts on the gravel road, before the county gets around to clearing them off, have to be hit at a good speed to even hope of getting a pickup thru them. And my pickup is slightly lifted. Those that aren't familiar with situations like this, it is not like tackling a snow drift on a city street for sure. it isn't because we are a bunch of hay seed hicks out here in the country that we own those gas guzzling pickups. And it sure isn't to impress the neighbors. It is a necessity. On occasion, someone gets hurt and they need to be taken to medical attention right away. Those situations are rare, but we don't wait for them to happen to then realize we should have bought something that could handle what we need to get thru.

Oh, and it isn't because the "idiot" on the tractor didn't remember to top off that fuel is brought out to the field, it is because a lot of work is being done and it isn't practical to bring a combine during harvest clear back to the main building to fuel and then run all the way back to the field. I am sure many have met up with a combine on the highway at some time. And driving it back and forth is wasteful of both time and fuel. Likewise, it is not practical to drive a D6 Cat dozer back to the fuel barrel to fill up, when it is doing a job several miles away. You have to take the fuel to them. The state would not look too highly on driving a D6 Cat on the road. I realize many folks have limited experience with such things, so it might be best if they hold off taking pot shots.


I wasn't taking a pot shot. In fact, I completely understand your need for a truck. The point I was making is that people under estimate Subarus. I wouldn't do half the work you do with a Subaru. However, I do think with some Blizzaks it would get to your house just fine.
 
I've been trying to stay out of this argument. It's gone silly.

Did find this in my inbox, which unfortunately will just fuel the fire:

Ford Super Duty may get higher trim level

Most of the article:

Originally Posted By: WardsAuto
DANIELS, WV – The Ford F-Series Super Duty pickup typically is thought of as a work truck, a favorite of construction workers, contractors and others needing massive payload and towing power.

But there are many consumers who purchase the truck for personal use, whether it be towing a recreational trailer, a boat or other weekend-warrior equipment.

For those buyers Ford offers a number of highly appointed trim levels, including the recently added top-of-the-line Platinum series, which comes with an upscale interior and a number of high-tech features.

The Ford F-250 Platinum starts at $55,510, and with additional options the price quickly can escalate to close to $70,000. Prices climb even higher for F-350 and F-450 models.

Even with such high-end trucks available, Doug Scott, Ford truck marketing manager, says there may be room for an even more upscale trim level.

“I think there is an opportunity above Platinum in Super Duty,” he tells WardsAuto during a Super Duty media event here. “We just have to figure out what that is and how can we put an offering together that adds value for the customer. When you have a loyal owner base like we do there are always customers that are looking for an F-Series nobody, or few others, have.”

Scott does not disclose when or if such a model is coming, but notes a Limited edition, which is top-of-the-line trim available on the F-150, is a possibility.

Ford is not the only manufacturer offering high-series heavy-duty pickups at premium prices. The Chevrolet Silverado 2500 HD LTZ starts at $46,075, while the Ram 2500 Laramie Limited begins $51,990. Like the Super Duty, the prices of both the Chevy and the Ram can push $70,000 or more.

While Scott admits $70,000 is a lot to spend on a pickup, he says high-end buyers are a special breed. Some have an equestrian lifestyle, he says, and after spending $200,000 on a horse trailer with living quarters and even more for the horses, paying for a high-end pickup isn’t an issue.

“The customers are there and there’s a willingness to pay,” he says.

Unlike the F-150, where most of the volume comes from midlevel trims, the Super Duty is the opposite, with most customers choosing either entry-level models or top-of-the-line trucks, with little volume inbetween.

With a refreshed ’15 Super Duty now hitting the market, sales are expected to experience a boost. Ford doesn’t break out Super Duty numbers from the F-Series line, but says they are about 25% of the mix.

Last year, F-Series sales were up 18.0% to 763,402, with about 190,850 units of that total being the Super Duty. Through June, F-Series deliveries were down 0.45% to 365,825, with approximately 91,456 Super Duty models sold, according to WardsAuto data.
 
I don't own a pick up truck because I have to. I own one, actually two, because I want to. I don't do it because it looks cool. At my age nobody would look at me anyway. Drive what makes you happy. If you don't like what I , or others, drive, get over it. Life is short, and getting shorter.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: glock19

I don't doubt your need for a truck and you're correct when you say you're not going to haul all that stuff in a Subaru. However, traversing the obstacles you mentioned would be no problem. People seem to forget than an Outback has the same ground clearance as an F-150 or Grand Cherokee.


As I stated, someone is more than welcome to bring a Subaru out to my place and cross over the conservation terraces on my property with it. I will provide the food and drink to watch this one. And many of the snow drifts on the gravel road, before the county gets around to clearing them off, have to be hit at a good speed to even hope of getting a pickup thru them. And my pickup is slightly lifted. Those that aren't familiar with situations like this, it is not like tackling a snow drift on a city street for sure. it isn't because we are a bunch of hay seed hicks out here in the country that we own those gas guzzling pickups. And it sure isn't to impress the neighbors. It is a necessity. On occasion, someone gets hurt and they need to be taken to medical attention right away. Those situations are rare, but we don't wait for them to happen to then realize we should have bought something that could handle what we need to get thru.

Oh, and it isn't because the "idiot" on the tractor didn't remember to top off that fuel is brought out to the field, it is because a lot of work is being done and it isn't practical to bring a combine during harvest clear back to the main building to fuel and then run all the way back to the field. I am sure many have met up with a combine on the highway at some time. And driving it back and forth is wasteful of both time and fuel. Likewise, it is not practical to drive a D6 Cat dozer back to the fuel barrel to fill up, when it is doing a job several miles away. You have to take the fuel to them. The state would not look too highly on driving a D6 Cat on the road. I realize many folks have limited experience with such things, so it might be best if they hold off taking pot shots.


I don't know why you're typing so much. I don't think anybody ever said that there was no reason for trucks to exist. The point people are trying to drive is that a lot of people buy these things and maintain them as status symbols, not for any practical reason.

Also, when the end of that field has a fixed fueling station, the guy on the tractor is an idiot and is wasting the time of the other guy driving the pickup.
 
Trucks aren't really my cup of tea- although if I had unlimited funding and garage space I'd probably have a Raptor and a Ram SRT/10.

That said, I really get annoyed at all the hand-wringing bedwetters who want to tell me what I "need." It's none of their d**n business. I should be able to determine what I need and you should be able to do the same.
Don't like my choices? Too bad; suck it up and find some other windmill to tilt at...
 
The trim level up scale article on the Ford Super Duty is interesting, but we also need to look at what a lot of those vehicles are used for, especially the dually versions. A lot of them are used to tow RV, Horse Trailers, and even some commercial flatbed stuff. Lots of time behind the wheel. Not a usual grocery getter either. I ordered just about everything I could get in my semi truck for the exact same reason... I spend a lot of time in that seat and I want the most comfortable, quiet ride I can get and enjoy it. But it is a work truck. But as a side, even my semi truck has made a grocery run. Minus the trailer.

And the other dirty little secret why some folks buy pickups, is for safety. It is less likely that driver or passengers will be serious hurt or killed in a larger vehicle than a smaller one. This is why you see a lot of large SUV's and crew cab pickups running around. Sure, people get killed in them also, but the odds are in someone's favor if they are in the larger vehicle. Physics are what they are.
 
I also don't get the hate on the upper level trucks. Each has its place.

If one were looking for a work-type truck where it was expected to stay on the farm or go from job site to job site, the niceties are not needed. For those that use it for pulling things long distances or whatnot why not have some conveniences?

When I was shopping, I initially was going to look at older trucks. Until I thought about what it was going to be. Yes, it will be hauling stuff around the house. We plan on an RV at some point in the next year and like road trips. So with the thought of 4-8+ hour tows I sure as heck didn't want some ancient stripper. Should my Taurus or the wife's Escape poop the bed it will be the replacement for that. So upper levels it was.

And I've never been a truck guy but the usefulness of one can't be beat. If I had to consolidate down to 1 car a good argument could be made for the truck...
 
potholes_3.jpg

Is it possible as I have said in the past some people's hobbies are different. I am blessed in the fact that I can afford to let this thing sit, an 02 with 37,000 miles on it. Some folks can't so they have to drive their it daily.

No one should be judging anyone else.
 
When I've posted comments or raves about my Honda Ridgeline....I often get hammered by BOTH sides.

The "real" truck guys will have a tendency to make remarks that my Ridge is just a "minivan with a box" or that because I can't pull a 5th wheel trailer it's "completely useless as a real truck". The car people will say "horrible mpg's" and "gas hog".

If my goal at BITOG was to please the members with my Ridgeline....I'd fall sadly short.

The thing is though....and this is the REAL message of my post...it doesn't matter one bit what others think nor what popular opinion is. If YOU like ANY particular vehicle and YOU are paying for it, then everybody else should just be polite or not comment at all. But on this site we have certain groups (as in society) and members that choose to dominate or put down others because they enjoy it I suppose.

Anyway....like others have said in this thread....drive what you want to drive. Ignore idiots and rude people as much as you can. life IS indeed very short.
 
Originally Posted By: MCompact
Trucks aren't really my cup of tea- although if I had unlimited funding and garage space I'd probably have a Raptor and a Ram SRT/10.

That said, I really get annoyed at all the hand-wringing bedwetters who want to tell me what I "need." It's none of their d**n business. I should be able to determine what I need and you should be able to do the same.
Don't like my choices? Too bad; suck it up and find some other windmill to tilt at...


That last line is a gem!
 
I don't think my wallet would hold out owning a truck.

We have a GM service writer in our men's Bible study group and he was sharing about a recent Duramax diesel that was in the shop. Relatively new truck 2012 or so, under 100K miles and because of some malfunction in a fuel pump, $13K of fuel system work was done to replace everything.

I could buy two used cars for that kind of money
smile.gif
 
Well modern diesels are very complex, I wouldn't touch one.

I know of a number of guys with Duramax or Powerstrokes of different vintages that have been stuck with very large repair bills.

The 90's are long gone, and with them simple and pretty cheap to fix diesels. Their is no part on a 5.3 or 6L, that will cost $6k let alone $13k to fix, even a crate motor is less.
 
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That is where what I did with my current semi truck worthwhile. The EPA ties the emissions to the year the engine is made, not the vehicle. So, my 2013 semi truck has a factory rebuilt 2000 Detroit Series 60 pre-egr diesel engine. Perfectly legal, titled, and runs every week over several states. And with the "tweaks" I have done over and above the OEM design, the truck exceeds the trucking industry average mpg values by about 20%, while knocking the socks off many of the newer emissions equipped trucks on a hard pull.

The same thing could be done with pickups, if the OEM would offer a pickup minus the engine option, or "glider" truck as they are called in commercial trucking circles. One could get a 2014 pickup and drop in a pre-egr diesel engine that would mate with it. Wouldn't work for those in California, only because CARB has it's own schizophrenic thing going on.
 
"If" is a big if. I've frequented diesel boards, and for passenger cars the engine must be same model year or newer. Lots of people would love to do nothing more than drop a mechanical pump diesel into, well, just about anything. But if one's state of residence does emission checking of any sort (CEL's, visual inspection) then that fails.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
That is where what I did with my current semi truck worthwhile. The EPA ties the emissions to the year the engine is made, not the vehicle. So, my 2013 semi truck has a factory rebuilt 2000 Detroit Series 60 pre-egr diesel engine. Perfectly legal, titled, and runs every week over several states. And with the "tweaks" I have done over and above the OEM design, the truck exceeds the trucking industry average mpg values by about 20%, while knocking the socks off many of the newer emissions equipped trucks on a hard pull.

The same thing could be done with pickups, if the OEM would offer a pickup minus the engine option, or "glider" truck as they are called in commercial trucking circles. One could get a 2014 pickup and drop in a pre-egr diesel engine that would mate with it. Wouldn't work for those in California, only because CARB has it's own schizophrenic thing going on.


Unfortunately, I do not think the emission and safety laws on light-duty trucks permit it.
frown.gif
(I don't even think it would be legal in a class 6 or 7 MDT.)

Too bad, because a new Super Duty or Ram with a 1998.5-2003 Cummins would be SWEET!
 
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