BMW ATF Lifetime

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Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: MCompact
That car must be a blast at HPDEs!


It is. Also, it weighs just 3145 pounds; minus spare tire, empty fuel tank, no driver. Not stripped, just very carefully optioned plus lightweight exhaust, wheels, and tires.

Scott


I once missed out on an E46 M3 that was perfectly optioned; just Xenons. H-K audio, and heated seats. No hole in the roof, no power seats... my dream car. I stupidly hesitated and it got away...
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Quattro Pete:

Just to clarify your post for others, I'm assuming the Lubro Moly in your picture is used in your rear diff.

Correct.
 
My e36's transmission failed at 89k miles on the "lifetime" fluid. I have since learned and do a couple drain and fills every 30k miles. The first time I changed the fluid was on jack stands and was not very fun. I didn't like crawling under the car with it running not to mention the mess as others have mentioned. I worked at a BMW dealer for a couple years and was able to use their lifts which made a night and day difference.

When the techs would replace seals under warranty they would save all the old nasty fluid and fill the trans back up with it. It seemed so counter-productive doing this and always made me cringe.

Now that I no longer have access to a lift I will most likely just take my car into my local indie euro shop. Same for my parents' 2006 E46 with the 5-speed ZF Auto once it hits 50k.
 
In BMW speak lifetime means 100k mile interval.

[censored] even ZF (supplies AT's to BMW) states lifetime for normal driving and 45-60k miles for "severe service ".

Also UOA have shown that the fluid is okay more often than not at 50k.

Also under the rare circumstances a transmission fails over 50k but less than 100k BMW has been known to goodwill a replacement.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: DB_Cooper
I think ZF has amended the "lifetime" service recommendations now on their automatics, depending on the service loads and driving styles.


ZF 2011 letter concerning LifeTime fluids

Yes, there are always two versions of the story: the car manufacturer's and the part manufacturer's.



Looks consistent to me.
 
Ignore that "lifetime" claim. Transmissions last longer if you change the fluid at 30,000 miles, and then 60,000 mile intervals afterwards.

Also, in many cars I have found fluid that is absolutely putrid at 30,000 miles, despite claims of being able to go significantly longer than 30,000 miles.
 
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Ignore that "lifetime" claim. Transmissions last longer if you change the fluid at 30,000 miles, and then 60,000 mile intervals afterwards.

Also, in many cars I have found fluid that is absolutely putrid at 30,000 miles, despite claims of being able to go significantly longer than 30,000 miles.


Anything other than anecdotal proof?
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Anything other than anecdotal proof?


Well, ZF said to change ATF in their gearboxes every 62K miles or 8 years. In the context of "lifetime", this seems contrary to that.

ZF's document also says this about owners who do more frequent changes; "Changing the fluids is entirely their decision. Properly performed oil service will not damage the transmission".

I think one of the issues that is forgotten in these discussions is that some people simply like exploring and working on their cars. My fleet of modern, relatively low maintenance vehicles, receive far more maintenance than what was specified "back in the old days" when cars had carburetors, distributors with points and condensers, and were serviced with relatively inferior products compared to the ones we have today. Back then a car needed a complete "tune-up" every 12K miles. And, there were good reasons for 3K mile oil changes. Carburetors with chokes were crude, imprecise air/fuel delivery devices. Talk about fuel dilution on a "short tripper"!!!

Fact is, I like "playing" with my cars. I seldom have to "work" on them because they seldom need actual repairs. Rather, I simply want to spend some time doing something in the garage. I have a really well equipped garage with roll away tool boxes, all fully stocked with standard and specialized tools, compressed air, etc. I didn't equip my garage like this so I could fix a sink faucet!

Speaking for myself, I get a sense of satisfaction when I change my oil. Heck, I even get a sense of satisfaction when I wash my car or fill it with a fresh tank of gas!

If I spend $100 two or three times a year changing the oil, even though it may not really need it, I view that as pretty inexpensive entertainment. Those who have gained the knowledge and ability to properly "play" with their cars do so because they are interested in doing so. If I was completely disinterested in working on my cars and had to pay others to do it, I'd probably follow the "lifetime" guidance too.

Cars to me are as much a toy as they are transportation. I often times actually tell my wife of 38 years that "I'm going out to play in the garage".

Understand, I'm not flaming anyone. I'm just explaining my reasons for early oil changes, reasons I think are shared by some others.

Best,

Scott
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Anything other than anecdotal proof?


Well, ZF said to change ATF in their gearboxes every 62K miles or 8 years. In the context of "lifetime", this seems contrary to that.

ZF's document also says this about owners who do more frequent changes; "Changing the fluids is entirely their decision. Properly performed oil service will not damage the transmission".

I think one of the issues that is forgotten in these discussions is that some people simply like exploring and working on their cars. My fleet of modern, relatively low maintenance vehicles, receive far more maintenance than what was specified "back in the old days" when cars had carburetors, distributors with points and condensers, and were serviced with relatively inferior products compared to the ones we have today. Back then a car needed a complete "tune-up" every 12K miles. And, there were good reasons for 3K mile oil changes. Carburetors with chokes were crude, imprecise air/fuel delivery devices. Talk about fuel dilution on a "short tripper"!!!

Fact is, I like "playing" with my cars. I seldom have to "work" on them because they seldom need actual repairs. Rather, I simply want to spend some time doing something in the garage. I have a really well equipped garage with roll away tool boxes, all fully stocked with standard and specialized tools, compressed air, etc. I didn't equip my garage like this so I could fix a sink faucet!

Speaking for myself, I get a sense of satisfaction when I change my oil. Heck, I even get a sense of satisfaction when I wash my car or fill it with a fresh tank of gas!

If I spend $100 two or three times a year changing the oil, even though it may not really need it, I view that as pretty inexpensive entertainment.


Well that mileage is under their "severe service " interval. Wrench boredom I get. 100% there.
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Lifetime means "warranty + 1 day".

BMW does the same thing for many of its fluids. They call them "lifetime" or say that it's a "sealed unit". This is to avoid paying for fluid changes under the no-cost maintenance offering.

My advice is to change it every few years, depending on your driving style.

I think you have BMW figured out. My manual transmission E36 328is, which I purchased with 75k kms on the odometer, was supposed to have lifetime transmission and differential lubricants. I changed them both every two years or 30k kms (or so). There were readily visible impurities in both when they were changed the first time, although not so bad subsequently. Similarly with the automatic transmission, differentials and transfer case on my ML320. (My mechanic changed the ATF.) I disregard any claim of lifetime lubricants and change them all regularly.
 
Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

How often do you change the manual trans fluid on this car?


Well, understand, my 330Ci is my garage queen. It's never been driven in the rain or on wet roads, nor has it ever spent a entire day or night parked outside. Not one. I cover it when it's in the garage. The only time it's outside is when it's actually being driven.

Often times I drive it just to keep it "wet". So, to answer your question, I change the gearbox oil once a year when I bleed the brakes and change the rear diff oil. That can be as few at 2K miles if I'm not driving the car much.

I've used the Pentosin "MTF2". It works well and is what BMW recommends. However, IMO Redline MT-85 works even better. The differences are subtle but I do honestly believe MT-85 makes the gearbox smoother shifting and a bit quieter. I hear no gear noise at all with MT-85. While Pentosin MTF2 I sometimes notice a slight gear whine in first gear.

Garage queen and (too) frequent oil changes aside, the car is "driven". I'll just leave it at that. Though a bit off topic this is the list of mods I've done to the car, every single one of them researched, specifically chosen, installed, and fine tuned by me. No one else but me has ever touched the car mechanically. Since taking new car possession my wife is the only person other than me who has driven it, and that was once for about 5 miles.

Scott

BBS CH Wheels 19x8.5 35mm offset front, 19x9.5 40mm offset rear
Continental SportContact 3 Y-rated 235/45-19 front, 245/35-19 rear
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs
Bilstein Sport Struts/Shocks, E36 M3 Versions On Rear
BMW Motorsport Front Strut Tower Reinforcement Plates
Rogue Engineering Rear Shock Mounts
H&R Sport Adjustable Anti-Roll Bars, 27mm front, 21mm Rear
Turner Motorsports Adjustable, Ball Jointed Front Anti-Roll Bar Endlinks
Mason Engineering Adjustable, Spherical Bearing Rear Anti-Roll Bar Endlinks
Mason Engineering Front Strut Brace
BMW Motorsport ZHP Front Control Arms
BMW M3 Engine Mounts
BMW M3 Transmission Mounts
Lemforder 66mm Front Control Arm Bushings
BMW M3 Rear Control Arm Bushings
Turner Motorsports Aluminum Rear Control Arm Bushing Limiters
BMW M3 Spherical Bearing Rear Lower/Outer Control Arm Bushings
BMW Group N Spherical Bearing Rear/Upper Control Arm Bushings
Stoptech Stainless Steel Brake Lines F/R
BMW Motorsport Cross-drilled, Fully Floating Front Brake Rotors
Jurid Sport Front Brake Pads
BMW M3 Rear Brake Pads (Textar)
Turner Motorsports Brass Brake Caliper Bushings
Borla Catback Stainless Steel Exhaust
Meyle Heavy Duty Rear Differential Mounts
BMW ZHP Finned Rear Differential Cover/Cooler
BMW ZHP Shift Knob
B&M Short Shift Kit
UUC Stainless Steel, Weighted Shift Rod
Mason Engineering Quick Shift Geometry Clutch Pedal Arm
Stewart Engineering Water Pump
Rogue Engineering Underdrive Pulley Set
BMW M3 Trunk Lid Spoiler Lip
BMW Motorsport Alcantara Steering Wheel

Sounds like a very nice car. My M3 was a garage queen before I bought it, never parked outside or driven in the rain once during its first 12 years of life. It has a harder life with me, although it shouldn't complain about only 3500 kms in the last year. I realize the transmission in the M3 is different than the one in your 330, but most people lean toward the OE BMW MTF2 for the M3 transmission over on M3F.
 
Originally Posted By: 2008wrx
Why does BMW claim their ATF is life time; means no need to change? Anyone knows if BMW and Audi are doing something similar? Thanks. Happy friday


Define lifetime. I laugh at lifetime fluid recommendations. My definition of lifetime is a lot different than their lifetime.
 
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