anyone had issues applying sealant over WW?
- Thread starter badtlc
- Start date
- Status
If you plan on any type of waxing that is your base wax just don't use a wash and wax when you wash just prior. I know... they are harder much harder to find. Luckily they tend to be the cheapest ones. The only non 'cheap' one I ran across is Meguiar's Gold Class.
If it's the same brand, then it's usually OK.
For instance, using Optimum No Rinse Wash and Wax and applying Opti-Seal should be fine.
But it's probably not an ideal situation (regardless).
For instance, using Optimum No Rinse Wash and Wax and applying Opti-Seal should be fine.
But it's probably not an ideal situation (regardless).
I have applied BlackFire Crystal Seal sealant over Optimum No Rinse, and then Meg's spray wax over the sealant.
Never had a any noticeable issues.
Never had a any noticeable issues.
You can put any normal wax or sealant over the minimal protection a wash and wax leaves behind. The only stuff that you really need to watch out for is those specialized hardcoats like C-Quartz or Opticoat. They benefit from as squeaky clean a surface as possible. And either way you'd be wiping down the paint with alcohol which would completely strip the wash and wax anyways.
What those wash and waxes leave behind is even less than a spray wax. So if the waxes solvent carrier can't cut through that minimal layer of protection and promote good adhesion with the paint I doubt the wax would last long at all to begin with.
What those wash and waxes leave behind is even less than a spray wax. So if the waxes solvent carrier can't cut through that minimal layer of protection and promote good adhesion with the paint I doubt the wax would last long at all to begin with.
Last edited:
I figured worst case is just use dawn for washing if I know i'm going to apply sealant after. Then use the WW for regular washing.
Thanks for the replies. I get anal about stuff like this especially when considering using products from different manufacturers. I'm trying to use up my Zaino AIO w/out buying more Z7 because $20 for that much shampoo is ridiculous to me.
I was looking at Meguiars UWW and it said it was compatible with all of their products and their ULW is a polymer sealant like Zaino AIO. So I'm hoping it will be fine.
Thanks for the replies. I get anal about stuff like this especially when considering using products from different manufacturers. I'm trying to use up my Zaino AIO w/out buying more Z7 because $20 for that much shampoo is ridiculous to me.
I was looking at Meguiars UWW and it said it was compatible with all of their products and their ULW is a polymer sealant like Zaino AIO. So I'm hoping it will be fine.
Last edited:
When wax breaks down, sealant will go with it.
I ALWAYS wipe my cars and boats down with 90% isopropyl alcohol after washing them with Dawn (or compounding and/or polishing) before applying sealant to ENSURE that sealant is going into clear coat and NOT a layer of wax that in a few weeks/months will breakdown.
Make sense?
I ALWAYS wipe my cars and boats down with 90% isopropyl alcohol after washing them with Dawn (or compounding and/or polishing) before applying sealant to ENSURE that sealant is going into clear coat and NOT a layer of wax that in a few weeks/months will breakdown.
Make sense?
That doesn't make sense wiping down so much for a simple conventional sealant. A hardcoat system yes it makes sense. But synthetic sealant or carnauba wax, either one has solvents strong enough to cut through the minimal wax and silicones left behind from a wash and wax product, and even from the oils left behind from polishing.
So completely wiping down with alcohol doesn't make any real sense. And on top of that alcohol tends to have zero lubication properties which means you risk marring your paint wiping down with it, I try to avoid it unless specifically trying to ensure any polishing activity isn't leaving behind hazing or damage that's being hidden.
It's pretty much a false notion that conventional waxes and sealants "layer" at best you just end up increasing the concentration of the product bonded to the surface but spreading a sealant over a wax simply removes the old wax layer replacing it with a sealant layer with maybe a few wax molecules that were redissolved by the sealant solvent and re-bonded to the paint. It really wouldn't affect sealant life any.
Proper application and cure time is going to do more to ensure long life of your sealant and wax than the possibility of some wax being on the paint before application.
So completely wiping down with alcohol doesn't make any real sense. And on top of that alcohol tends to have zero lubication properties which means you risk marring your paint wiping down with it, I try to avoid it unless specifically trying to ensure any polishing activity isn't leaving behind hazing or damage that's being hidden.
It's pretty much a false notion that conventional waxes and sealants "layer" at best you just end up increasing the concentration of the product bonded to the surface but spreading a sealant over a wax simply removes the old wax layer replacing it with a sealant layer with maybe a few wax molecules that were redissolved by the sealant solvent and re-bonded to the paint. It really wouldn't affect sealant life any.
Proper application and cure time is going to do more to ensure long life of your sealant and wax than the possibility of some wax being on the paint before application.
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
synthetic sealant or carnauba wax, either one has solvents strong enough to cut through the minimal wax and silicones left behind from a wash and wax product, and even from the oils left behind from polishing.
I don't have any way to quantify my results, but I've definitely seen a HUGE improvement in the longevity of ReJex if I strip a car/boat with Dawn first, instead of applying ReJex over old carnuba wax. On my boats, I've also seen HUGE improvements in the longevity of ReJex if I wipe the boat down with IPA after I compound and/or polish before applying ReJex. I even use waxless polishes, but still wipe down with IPA.
The advancement in longevity of making sure ReJex is DIRECTLY bonded to clear coat or clean gelcoat is so dramatic, that it's a FACT that wiping down with IPA and bonding ReJex to clean and waxless surface is the best procedure. Applying ReJex over wax is simply a waste of product.
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
It's pretty much a false notion that conventional waxes and sealants "layer"
Once again, I disagree. If you apply ReJex on a clean and waxless/stripped surface first, let it properly cure (at least 24 hours with nearly zero exposure to humidity/moisture, the sealant will properly polymerize and will no longer be "dissolved" by the solvents found in ReJex. So, once the first coat is properly polymerized, you actually can successfully layer another coat of ReJex on top of the first. And if you let the second coat of ReJex properly cure and polymerize, you can successfully layer carnuba wax on top of the ReJex.
However, I'm not convinced that you can successfully layer coats of carnuba wax. I think the newest layer of wax being applied is always dissolving some of the older stuff, no matter how you let it cure between coats.
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
Proper application and cure time is going to do more to ensure long life of your sealant and wax than the possibility of some wax being on the paint before application.
I agree with the first part of this. If you put sealant on clean and waxless car/boat, along with proper cure times and conditions, you can successfully layer synthetic sealants and then topcoat with carnuba. But putting sealant onto a waxy car/boat is just forcing you to re-seal WAY more often.
synthetic sealant or carnauba wax, either one has solvents strong enough to cut through the minimal wax and silicones left behind from a wash and wax product, and even from the oils left behind from polishing.
I don't have any way to quantify my results, but I've definitely seen a HUGE improvement in the longevity of ReJex if I strip a car/boat with Dawn first, instead of applying ReJex over old carnuba wax. On my boats, I've also seen HUGE improvements in the longevity of ReJex if I wipe the boat down with IPA after I compound and/or polish before applying ReJex. I even use waxless polishes, but still wipe down with IPA.
The advancement in longevity of making sure ReJex is DIRECTLY bonded to clear coat or clean gelcoat is so dramatic, that it's a FACT that wiping down with IPA and bonding ReJex to clean and waxless surface is the best procedure. Applying ReJex over wax is simply a waste of product.
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
It's pretty much a false notion that conventional waxes and sealants "layer"
Once again, I disagree. If you apply ReJex on a clean and waxless/stripped surface first, let it properly cure (at least 24 hours with nearly zero exposure to humidity/moisture, the sealant will properly polymerize and will no longer be "dissolved" by the solvents found in ReJex. So, once the first coat is properly polymerized, you actually can successfully layer another coat of ReJex on top of the first. And if you let the second coat of ReJex properly cure and polymerize, you can successfully layer carnuba wax on top of the ReJex.
However, I'm not convinced that you can successfully layer coats of carnuba wax. I think the newest layer of wax being applied is always dissolving some of the older stuff, no matter how you let it cure between coats.
Originally Posted By: qwertydude
Proper application and cure time is going to do more to ensure long life of your sealant and wax than the possibility of some wax being on the paint before application.
I agree with the first part of this. If you put sealant on clean and waxless car/boat, along with proper cure times and conditions, you can successfully layer synthetic sealants and then topcoat with carnuba. But putting sealant onto a waxy car/boat is just forcing you to re-seal WAY more often.
Can you verify that Rejex can layer? Absolutely not. I know for a fact that a high buildup wax like Johnson paste wax can be measured and every application will build up a measurable layer of wax if you're very careful about application and don't rub in the wax too much as the solvents will eventually dissolve the built up layers. You can visibly see it and even measure it with a paint thickness guage. Car waxes and sealants simply won't give a measureable increase in thickness therefore can not be layered. And were talking micron levels of thickness.
At most you simply increase the concentration of sealant bonded to the surface. And specifically the argument that Rejex layers because it will last longer on a freshly cleaned surface is specious and actually proves MY point. This simply proves that carnauba prevents "layering" on top of itself.
As for layering sealants, again the curing simply bonds the polymers to the paint, it doesn't mean it will become a distinct layer that won't be removed with another application of sealant. I have yet to see a conventional sealant truly layer, and even hardcoat systems when you try to layer them look terrible horribly uneven so you don't even wanna try with them. I'm talking a measurable thickness increase with subsequent applications. This is like those Liquid Glass claims that 25 coats will put a chip proof coating on the surface.
If you want proof, things that can layer can dry to a solid block. Johnson Paste Wax layers most definitely, leave a big chunk of it out to dry and you end up with a solid block of wax. Carnauba wax dries to a brittle dusty chunk that crumbles, if it can't stick to itself, then why assume it "layers" to begin with?
If Rejex truly can layer, and "polymerize" like paint like they want to claim, well it should polymerize like paint, as in leave it out and you're left with a solid block. I doubt that happens. Every synthetic sealant I've come across dries into a brittle dust that can be wiped off the bonded layer below. And you simply can't apply more on top and measure it. At best like I said you can increase the concentration of the first layer by multiple applications, or like you've experienced and is common knowledge strip the surface clean and start fresh for maximum bonding.
Here's an experiment. Get a section of your paint and divide it up. Prep it fresh and clean and on one section try to layer 10 coats over several days. Then clean and prep the other section after the last layer is put on the other one. Work it in really well and use a generous amount. Let that cure. I can pretty much guarantee you the durability will be the same, even with 10 "layers" which in theory should be 10 times more durable. It never is.
At most you simply increase the concentration of sealant bonded to the surface. And specifically the argument that Rejex layers because it will last longer on a freshly cleaned surface is specious and actually proves MY point. This simply proves that carnauba prevents "layering" on top of itself.
As for layering sealants, again the curing simply bonds the polymers to the paint, it doesn't mean it will become a distinct layer that won't be removed with another application of sealant. I have yet to see a conventional sealant truly layer, and even hardcoat systems when you try to layer them look terrible horribly uneven so you don't even wanna try with them. I'm talking a measurable thickness increase with subsequent applications. This is like those Liquid Glass claims that 25 coats will put a chip proof coating on the surface.
If you want proof, things that can layer can dry to a solid block. Johnson Paste Wax layers most definitely, leave a big chunk of it out to dry and you end up with a solid block of wax. Carnauba wax dries to a brittle dusty chunk that crumbles, if it can't stick to itself, then why assume it "layers" to begin with?
If Rejex truly can layer, and "polymerize" like paint like they want to claim, well it should polymerize like paint, as in leave it out and you're left with a solid block. I doubt that happens. Every synthetic sealant I've come across dries into a brittle dust that can be wiped off the bonded layer below. And you simply can't apply more on top and measure it. At best like I said you can increase the concentration of the first layer by multiple applications, or like you've experienced and is common knowledge strip the surface clean and start fresh for maximum bonding.
Here's an experiment. Get a section of your paint and divide it up. Prep it fresh and clean and on one section try to layer 10 coats over several days. Then clean and prep the other section after the last layer is put on the other one. Work it in really well and use a generous amount. Let that cure. I can pretty much guarantee you the durability will be the same, even with 10 "layers" which in theory should be 10 times more durable. It never is.
Last edited:
qwertydude.....
Ok, let me get this straight:
1.) You agree that waxes can be layered. Right? You just said that Johnson paste wax could. So, I'm sure Collinite paste wax can be as well. I agree with you. In my previous post I said that I wasn't sure. But I only use Collinite #915 and it's VERY OILY; therefore, it has a lot of solvents in it. I'm sure if I used a "dryer" paste wax, I could get it to layer better.
2.) When a sealant cures, it's cross-links and polymerizes. At least ReJex does. ReJex forms a convalent bond between ReJex molecules. It's not forming any kind of covalent bond with the clear coat. That's chemically impossible, unless you "dissolve" some of the clear coat first, and a sealant doesn't do that.
3.) Your "theory" on what waxes/sealants look like when they are dried out have NOTHING to do with their layering capabilities. How could it? You're connecting two observations that aren't related nor could they be.
4.) You can't measure the thickness of 1 layer of ReJex vs. 5 or even 10 layers. If I could measure it, I would.
Finally, my idea that ReJex can layer is based on EXPERIENCE. How many layers would I have to put on to "saturate" the surface? 2 or 3, right? I'll bet you $500 that a car hood with 10 layers of properly layered ReJex outlasts a hood with 2 or 3 coats on it.
I'm willing to bet $500, because I've already done this experiment on the bow of my 36' Tiara.
Ok, let me get this straight:
1.) You agree that waxes can be layered. Right? You just said that Johnson paste wax could. So, I'm sure Collinite paste wax can be as well. I agree with you. In my previous post I said that I wasn't sure. But I only use Collinite #915 and it's VERY OILY; therefore, it has a lot of solvents in it. I'm sure if I used a "dryer" paste wax, I could get it to layer better.
2.) When a sealant cures, it's cross-links and polymerizes. At least ReJex does. ReJex forms a convalent bond between ReJex molecules. It's not forming any kind of covalent bond with the clear coat. That's chemically impossible, unless you "dissolve" some of the clear coat first, and a sealant doesn't do that.
3.) Your "theory" on what waxes/sealants look like when they are dried out have NOTHING to do with their layering capabilities. How could it? You're connecting two observations that aren't related nor could they be.
4.) You can't measure the thickness of 1 layer of ReJex vs. 5 or even 10 layers. If I could measure it, I would.
Finally, my idea that ReJex can layer is based on EXPERIENCE. How many layers would I have to put on to "saturate" the surface? 2 or 3, right? I'll bet you $500 that a car hood with 10 layers of properly layered ReJex outlasts a hood with 2 or 3 coats on it.
I'm willing to bet $500, because I've already done this experiment on the bow of my 36' Tiara.
Only certain waxes can be layered. It has to be a specific formula and you have to apply it very carefully to layer, and no carnauba car waxes can not be layered reliably. It becomes far too brittle and will simply flake off.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3072196
Not all waxes are created equal. Shoe polish and floor wax would make a very poor car coating even though they can be layered. They are high build up but their low melting point would make it very soft on a hot car. It would simply melt off.
You're still basing your layering theory on bad science. If Rejex only forms covalent bonds between Rejex molecules, than why doesn't it cure like any other layerable substance like paint, high buildup waxes, acrylic floor sealants, as in once the substance cures into a true coating, subsequent coatings can be measured and build up quite rapidly. And the way they behave when applied doesn't dry into a dusty layer to wipe off. If whatever you use dries into a dusty layer it's basically showing you that it can't be layered.
Basically the way these types of sealants work is a lot like a wax. Only they end up being more durable because they bond more strongly because of covalent bonds to the paint, that's the curing part. Wax simply bonds with weaker hydrogen bonds to the hydrocarbon ends on paint helped by the solvents working their way into the paint. Once the initial layer is bonded to the paint the molecules have oriented themselves in a way that the non-polar ends of the molecules face outward. This makes an essentially non-stick surface, and it's also non-stick to the very same molecules trying to bond on subsequent applications. That's why 1 coat, 10 coats, 100, 1000 coats even will never yield a measurable increase in thickness.
And I'm sure 10 coats will last longer than 3. But they way it works is just like any other non-layerable coating. You're getting diminishing returns on investment. Unless you can prove to me that 10 coats will last 5 times longer than 2 coats. Which it will never do. Because if it did why not just put 50 coats and not do anything for several years?
When it comes to paint, a single coat of clear like they do on cheap Maaco jobs lasts about 3-4 years without care. 2 coats will definitely last almost double. And put on three or more coats and with some care and waxing you'll easily get 20 years or more out of it. Same hold true for my shoes, I haven't stripped and reapplied them for years since being in the navy with as many coats of wax it has all I do is touch up the shine and fill in gouges but they've been protected just fine because of the amount of protection I put. Why doesn't Rejex and any other paint sealant other than the hardcoats behave like this? I know that if you go nuts with Opticoat you'll get multiple microns worth of extra protection easily measured, only problem is your whole car would look like a bunch of splotchy high spots. And Opticoat doesn't dry into a dusty surface, when it cures it cures like a clearcoat. Wipe on walk away is the description. Just like paint, apply and let dry.
So if Rejex truly were layerable, additional layers should easily increase the durability by as much as the single layers initial durability.
This isn't some random belief I hold just because. There are far more qualified chemists that have already debunked this belief.
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?2167-What-s-the-deal-with-quot-Layering-quot
Basically if it applies like a wax, hazes and you buff it off. It can not be layered.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3072196
Not all waxes are created equal. Shoe polish and floor wax would make a very poor car coating even though they can be layered. They are high build up but their low melting point would make it very soft on a hot car. It would simply melt off.
You're still basing your layering theory on bad science. If Rejex only forms covalent bonds between Rejex molecules, than why doesn't it cure like any other layerable substance like paint, high buildup waxes, acrylic floor sealants, as in once the substance cures into a true coating, subsequent coatings can be measured and build up quite rapidly. And the way they behave when applied doesn't dry into a dusty layer to wipe off. If whatever you use dries into a dusty layer it's basically showing you that it can't be layered.
Basically the way these types of sealants work is a lot like a wax. Only they end up being more durable because they bond more strongly because of covalent bonds to the paint, that's the curing part. Wax simply bonds with weaker hydrogen bonds to the hydrocarbon ends on paint helped by the solvents working their way into the paint. Once the initial layer is bonded to the paint the molecules have oriented themselves in a way that the non-polar ends of the molecules face outward. This makes an essentially non-stick surface, and it's also non-stick to the very same molecules trying to bond on subsequent applications. That's why 1 coat, 10 coats, 100, 1000 coats even will never yield a measurable increase in thickness.
And I'm sure 10 coats will last longer than 3. But they way it works is just like any other non-layerable coating. You're getting diminishing returns on investment. Unless you can prove to me that 10 coats will last 5 times longer than 2 coats. Which it will never do. Because if it did why not just put 50 coats and not do anything for several years?
When it comes to paint, a single coat of clear like they do on cheap Maaco jobs lasts about 3-4 years without care. 2 coats will definitely last almost double. And put on three or more coats and with some care and waxing you'll easily get 20 years or more out of it. Same hold true for my shoes, I haven't stripped and reapplied them for years since being in the navy with as many coats of wax it has all I do is touch up the shine and fill in gouges but they've been protected just fine because of the amount of protection I put. Why doesn't Rejex and any other paint sealant other than the hardcoats behave like this? I know that if you go nuts with Opticoat you'll get multiple microns worth of extra protection easily measured, only problem is your whole car would look like a bunch of splotchy high spots. And Opticoat doesn't dry into a dusty surface, when it cures it cures like a clearcoat. Wipe on walk away is the description. Just like paint, apply and let dry.
So if Rejex truly were layerable, additional layers should easily increase the durability by as much as the single layers initial durability.
This isn't some random belief I hold just because. There are far more qualified chemists that have already debunked this belief.
http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?2167-What-s-the-deal-with-quot-Layering-quot
Basically if it applies like a wax, hazes and you buff it off. It can not be layered.
Last edited:
- Status
