PAG oil: Available yet? Next Big Thing

[ElastoHydro]

PAG oil: Available yet? Next Big Thing
Sounds good according to Link to PAG article.

We could see even longer drain intervals, more environmentally friendly oil disposal, lower friction. Why aren't we there yet? PAG = Polyalkylene Glycols

Ford Research got a DOE contract to study PAG oils a couple of years ago. Any news on that yet?

PAG provides lower NOACK, needs less VI & other additives, longer drain intervals, etc. Now when will it be in Walmart?

 

[simple_gifts]

What! The GTL party is over?

 

[sicko]

I can see it now, GTL vs PAG will be the new Jets vs Sharks.

 

[ElastoHydro]

PAG party has better dip & beer too. GTL was just flowery commercials.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: sicko
...Jets vs Sharks.


LOL!

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
What! The GTL party is over?

Not over but SOPUS won't let anybody else play with their toys.

 

[fdcg27]

It's in your car right now, assuming that your car has AC.

 

[MolaKule]

The major and maybe only manufacturer to-date is DOW with their Oil Soluble PAGS:

http://www.dow.com/ucon/osp/

We're currently evaluating them as co-bases for windturbine transmissions.

Very expensive at this time.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The major and maybe only manufacturer to-date is DOW with their Oil Soluble PAGS:

http://www.dow.com/ucon/osp/

We're currently evaluating them as co-bases for windturbine transmissions.

Very expensive at this time.



I assume that economies of scale will drive prices way down. What's a realistic time frame for when this will start being used in motor oils (probably boutique to begin)?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
The major and maybe only manufacturer to-date is DOW with their Oil Soluble PAGS:

http://www.dow.com/ucon/osp/

We're currently evaluating them as co-bases for windturbine transmissions.

Very expensive at this time.


I assume that economies of scale will drive prices way down. What's a realistic time frame for when this will start being used in motor oils (probably boutique to begin)?


Good question and I don't have a good answer. Much depends on how much production output they can muster, raw material availability and cost for the reactions, how it is accepted by the formulating community and customers, and most of all, how it performs in fleet tests, etc.

I already have some PCMO formulations with OSPs that are being tested for customers, but still, they are co-base formulas because of cost.

My experience to-date is the following:

1. It doesn't have the solubility that DOW claims. Yes it does have some solubility, but not like the esters or Alkynaphthalenes, or esterified ashless dispersants. The higher the OSP viscosity the worse the solubility,

2. People freak out when when they see a PCMO with glycol. Here, customer education is important.

3. It does show low and high temperature stability, oxidation stability, improved deposit control (almost nil deposits in high temperature tests), a high viscosity index, decent seal compatibility, and wettability.

I should also add that we are working on some formulations with base oil combos using large percentages of this base oil to determine current PI compatibility.

 

[tommygunn]

Isn't that brake fluid?

I heard of people adding brake fluid to oil to stop leaks, but it could also cause huge problems too.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Isn't that brake fluid?

I heard of people adding brake fluid to oil to stop leaks, but it could also cause huge problems too.


Adding brake fluid to oil is dangerous.

This is not a brake fluid. This is an ethylene oxide/propylene oxide (EO?PO) polymer miscisble only with mineral oils, PAOs and esters.

 

[Rosetta]

I think the confusion about brake fluid comes from the airspace hydraulic fluid that is called Skydrol or some kind of Ester Phosfate base fluid. Now about the op, looks like PAG doesn't mix well with other oil bases, as stated by "Machinery Lubrication" reviews ... won't have semisynthetic versions with PAG as component. Molakule could go further on this fact ...

 

[Nebroch]

https://online.stle.org/STAFFLIVE/CMDown...e1-00bdc649ce72

"Shut up and take my money"

 

[A_Harman]

Some interesting quotes from the article"

"For example, an oil-tolerant polyglycol-based and polymer-
free formulation with a HTHS of ~2.15 mPas, a VI of
205, and a NOACK of 5.8% is not so bad and difficult to
reach with hydrocarbon-based formulations."

That sounds good, but I don't anticipate owning an engine that specs oil with an HTHS
"The closest competitor of polyglycols are esters. The total
production volume of polyglycols is at least 10 times higher
than for esters. Some plants synthesize polyglycols in a scale
of >30,000 metric tons per year."

With all that volume available, seems like an opportunity for a boutique blender to develop an oil with significant PAG content.

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
https://online.stle.org/STAFFLIVE/CMDown...e1-00bdc649ce72

"Shut up and take my money"


Originally Posted By: MolaKule
3. It does show low and high temperature stability, oxidation stability, improved deposit control (almost nil deposits in high temperature tests), a high viscosity index, decent seal compatibility, and wettability.


From that link tech report, and MolaKule's statements, PAG sounds perfect for tough racing applications (F1, LeMans endurance, etc.), since cost is not a big deal with the well-funded racing teams. For consumers, boutique for sure, expensive a bit, yet for a cars that cost $50,000 (U.S.), more performance would sell PAG in those elite vehicles. Seal & plastic compatibility, with other issues, might hold PAG usage up for a while.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
All PAG oils were formulated with one additive package consisting of antioxidant, antiwear, corrosion
inhibitors and an acid scavenger.


Critically examine this statement.

Was this an off-the-shelf PI package or a PI package specifically optimized for OSPs?

It could make a difference and influence the outcomes.

 

[ElastoHydro]

^^^^ Yet the results of friction tests there turned out great! Certainly more time will optimize those additive packages.

 

[route66mike]

Racing as gear oil Dow and Richard Childress Racing PAG oil news

 

[route66mike]

"This collaboration began with the 24 Hours of Le Mans where UCON™ OSP Base Fluid used in the transmission fluid helped two OAK Racing cars withstand the demands of speed and endurance at Le Mans. Following 24 Hours of Le Mans, UCON™ OSP Base Fluid was used in both the transmission fluid and motor oil during the IMOLA and Silverstone races. The lubricants have shown to boost the power and performance of the OAK Racing cars while providing essential drive train protection under demanding race conditions." - http://www.dow.com/ucon/news/2011/20111004a.htm