454 TBI oil for tow truck use, need best economy

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I would add-watch for an F-Super Duty one as well, preferably 7.3 IDI & ZF 5 speed. I can squeeze 12-13 MPG out of mine if I baby it, & it's over 12,000 loaded. Can't see getting over 10 with a 454.

Since he would need 11 MPG to cover the added fuel cost of a diesel, selling his truck to get a small amount of MPG may not be very cost effective. The other problem is that he would have to know the condition of his truck versus that of someone's Ford IDI.

He mentioned the cost of head gaskets and new cylinder heads for diesels. Depending on which diesel you get, there are plenty of rebuilt heads out there, and they may not be too expensive. You mentioned that you can find aftermarket performance heads. Do you know what a new computer chip would cost, in order to function with the new heads? When dealing with diesels, you could port your existing heads, and not completely need to tune for the system changes. Old distributor pumps could often be adjusted by turning a few screws in order to compensate for design changes.

The price of diesel maintenance of a diesel is also a huge concern. How much would a rebuilt diesel distributor pump and injectors cost in the case he uses a Ford IDI engine? With the 454 TBI, an entirely rebuilt unit isn't nearly as bad, and also, there is far less labor to replace a TBI module versus a diesel distributor pump and injectors. If any one of those problems surfaces, the gain of a few MPG would take an extremely long time to recover from. It is my undertsnding, however, that glow plugs and control modules on non computerized diesels isn't all that much more expensive than having to replace all spark plugs and an ignition distributor.

Does a Ford IDI use a fuel pump in the fuel tank? Those pumps can get more expensive than the in-tank pump for a gasoline engine.

 

[c502cid]

Originally Posted By: occupant
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Get a diesel. I had a TBI 454 in a 3/4-ton '88 Suburban with 4.10 gears. It got 10 mpg in regular usage and 8 mpg while towing 5000 pounds. If you're going to average 7000 miles a month and if you get 8 mpg (which is optimistic, considering that truck is heavier than my Suburban), you will be paying $3325 in monthly fuel bills, assuming $3.80 gasoline price. That's about $40,000 in annual fuel costs. Can you make money with that kind of operating cost?

I traded the Suburban in on my '01 Dodge Ram diesel with an NV4500 transmission and 4.10 gears. This truck gives me 20 mpg in regular use and 15 mpg towing the same load. Assuming you get the same mileage, your monthly fuel bill would be $1867, assuming $4.00 diesel price. That's a savings of $17500 per year in fuel cost alone. If you want to stay GM, get a Duramax to swap into the truck that you get. But I swear by the Cummins 5.9. Mine has 243,000 miles on it, and it's still just getting broken in. If you can get the engine swap done for ~$10k, the diesel will pay for itself within a year.

And another suggestion I would make is to put a GearVendors overdrive on the back of the NV4500, whether you keep the gas engine or do as I say and convert to diesel. The 454 probably wouldn't have enough torque to run in double overdrive while loaded, but it would save revs on the engine when you're running empty. The Cummins engine has enough torque to run the truck at 75 mph in double overdrive while loaded.


Gas has been $3.60 a gallon on average the last year in Ohio. Diesel more like $4.00 a gallon. So right up front there is a 10% cost penalty to use diesel. If I can get 10mpg on gas, then the fuel cost EQUALS the diesel at 11mpg.

I don't have twenty grand to blow on a Cummins powered rollback. But I would entertain doing a Cummins swap on the gas powered rollback later on.

Where a gas engine really saves is in parts. Add up a clutch, a front brake job, injectors, glow plugs, oils and filters, and some other normal maintenance items for a 6.2, 6.5, IDI, Powerstroke, or Cummins (like I already have). Then match up a year's worth of maintenance on a gas engine (filters, fluids, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, brakes, TBI injectors, ignition module, clutch, fuel pump, etc) and check out the thousands of dollars in difference.

Also, I'm not a diesel mechanic, nor do I really want to learn. If I blow a head gasket I'd much rather do one on a 454 than a high compression diesel. I don't even want to know the machine shop costs on a Cummins head or worse, the replacement costs. If the 454 cracks a head, it's repairable. If it's NOT repairable, there are heads EVERYWHERE. Could upgrade to aluminum heads and intake while I'm at it. Can't do that with a diesel.

I'd love to do a Vortec 454, but it might be more difficult to wire up and if I'm going to spend a month piecing a harness together I'd just as soon do a 6.0L LS engine or go straight to the Cummins 12V swap. Ideally I'll be able to get a TBI 454 truck, 88-91 or so, run it, and save up for some sort of swap or upgrade be it TBI to Vortec, TBI to LS, or TBI to Cummins.

I have four trucks on my radar, three TBIs ($5000, $6000, $6500) and one carbureted ($4000). The carbureted one, naturally, is the cheapest. I imagine swapping carb to TBI would be simple and quick and then I could go from there. Hey, $4000 tow truck ready to work I might even run the carb for a few months and have a better swap candidate ready by then, maybe a rolled 3/4 ton Dodge diesel, you know?

But there's other factors, I want the longest bed I can get (17 and 17.5 foot won't cut it, needs to be 18 foot or better yet a 18.5 or 19 foot) and I would like a full function wheel lift as opposed to a stinger/towbar or nothing at all.

I'm also considering getting a 3500HD rollback (which would probably BE a Vortec 454/NV4500 as is ) and then swapping a C/K cab and front clip in there. Get the looks without the 12000-13000 GVWR limit.


Get the factory TBI truck over the carbed one if you want EFI (which will save more gas then oil viscosity every will). I've converted 3 now, and while easy enough using factory parts, it's still a conversion and you know how that goes.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
I would add-watch for an F-Super Duty one as well, preferably 7.3 IDI & ZF 5 speed. I can squeeze 12-13 MPG out of mine if I baby it, & it's over 12,000 loaded. Can't see getting over 10 with a 454.

Since he would need 11 MPG to cover the added fuel cost of a diesel, selling his truck to get a small amount of MPG may not be very cost effective. The other problem is that he would have to know the condition of his truck versus that of someone's Ford IDI.

He mentioned the cost of head gaskets and new cylinder heads for diesels. Depending on which diesel you get, there are plenty of rebuilt heads out there, and they may not be too expensive. You mentioned that you can find aftermarket performance heads. Do you know what a new computer chip would cost, in order to function with the new heads? When dealing with diesels, you could port your existing heads, and not completely need to tune for the system changes. Old distributor pumps could often be adjusted by turning a few screws in order to compensate for design changes.

The price of diesel maintenance of a diesel is also a huge concern. How much would a rebuilt diesel distributor pump and injectors cost in the case he uses a Ford IDI engine? With the 454 TBI, an entirely rebuilt unit isn't nearly as bad, and also, there is far less labor to replace a TBI module versus a diesel distributor pump and injectors. If any one of those problems surfaces, the gain of a few MPG would take an extremely long time to recover from. It is my undertsnding, however, that glow plugs and control modules on non computerized diesels isn't all that much more expensive than having to replace all spark plugs and an ignition distributor.

Does a Ford IDI use a fuel pump in the fuel tank? Those pumps can get more expensive than the in-tank pump for a gasoline engine.
My '89 has a mechanical lift pump on the block (probably under $50), and the Stanadyne mechanical injection pump & injectors. There are decent 6.9/7.3 IH/Ford powered trucks around, for somebody on a budget they are fairly simple & easy to work on, and can get decent MPGs. You're not going to set any speed records, but you'll get there. I'm not convinced there are too many heavily loaded/towing gas big block powered trucks getting over 10 on E10 gas-and any cheap Powerstroke with unknown service history could be expensive to fix if something goes wrong. When I bought my '89 F-450 the guy I bought it from had just bought a new 6.0 PSD service truck-he admitted it was a bad ($$$) decision, and our company's E-250 6.0 vans were expensive too.

 

[daman]

Originally Posted By: c502cid
The 454 doesn't give a rats (pun intended) a** which oil you use. It's going to use a qt every 1000-1400 miles

^^^I disagree, mine uses none, 90,000 original miles.

 

[another Todd]

I agree with A_Harmam's post on getting a diesel but you seem content with gas. So, I would run a HDEO 15-40 in summer and HDEO 10 or 5-30 in winter. Your OCI could be 6 to 8 thousand miles.

 

[KenO]

I agree with the others. At the very least, if you are adament about avoiding a diesel - get a Vortec 8100 at least. The least sucky of the big blocks, the TBI stuff is really trash. The only other thing I'll say is - if you're paying other people to work on this, whatever you do - keep the engine as stock as possible, sans extremely common mods. Anything deemed as strange or not normal, and you're downtime is going to be exponential due to techs not being familiar with the mods or how the engine will react when things go wrong, let alone finding parts. Your key is going to be keeping the truck up and rolling as much as possible. Downtime shopping for special-order parts isn't profitable.

 

[KenO]

Originally Posted By: daman
Originally Posted By: c502cid
The 454 doesn't give a rats (pun intended) a** which oil you use. It's going to use a qt every 1000-1400 miles

^^^I disagree, mine uses none, 90,000 original miles.



Yours is one of few then. Truthfully, most are oil burners. Congrats on having one thats not though.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Castrol 0w30 winter
Mobil1 0w40 summer

10000 mile oil change interval

ANY 5w30 synthetic for topping off. Store brand synthetic is cost effective if it consumes too many quarts.

Any name brand 2-quart sized oil filter.

Any brand full synth 75w140 for the diff.

Valvoline Synpower grease for joints.

GM cold climate or Amsoil PSF.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Castrol 0w30 winter
Mobil1 0w40 summer

What is the point of separating the use of two essentially interchangeable oils by season?

 

[TiredTrucker]

True, the EFI was better for mpg than the TBI, but it still remains what it is..... the OEM's have really dropped the ball. When a 1998 454 in a 3/4 ton pickup will get almost as good of mpg as a 2013 5.3L in a 1/2 ton pickup, one gets the idea that we are going backwards and not forwards.

 

[c502cid]

Originally Posted By: KenO
I agree with the others. At the very least, if you are adament about avoiding a diesel - get a Vortec 8100 at least. The least sucky of the big blocks, the TBI stuff is really trash. The only other thing I'll say is - if you're paying other people to work on this, whatever you do - keep the engine as stock as possible, sans extremely common mods. Anything deemed as strange or not normal, and you're downtime is going to be exponential due to techs not being familiar with the mods or how the engine will react when things go wrong, let alone finding parts. Your key is going to be keeping the truck up and rolling as much as possible. Downtime shopping for special-order parts isn't profitable.


The TBI engines are very easy to work on, parts availability is excellent, and is much better and more fuel efficient (for a 454 at least) than any carburetor big block. I'd agree on the 8.1 just because you'd be getting a newer truck, but not sure why the hate on the TBI. Very simple, very reliable.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: c502cid
Originally Posted By: KenO
I agree with the others. At the very least, if you are adament about avoiding a diesel - get a Vortec 8100 at least. The least sucky of the big blocks, the TBI stuff is really trash. The only other thing I'll say is - if you're paying other people to work on this, whatever you do - keep the engine as stock as possible, sans extremely common mods. Anything deemed as strange or not normal, and you're downtime is going to be exponential due to techs not being familiar with the mods or how the engine will react when things go wrong, let alone finding parts. Your key is going to be keeping the truck up and rolling as much as possible. Downtime shopping for special-order parts isn't profitable.


The TBI engines are very easy to work on, parts availability is excellent, and is much better and more fuel efficient (for a 454 at least) than any carburetor big block. I'd agree on the 8.1 just because you'd be getting a newer truck, but not sure why the hate on the TBI. Very simple, very reliable.


We ran TBI engines for nearly a decade in our fleet, they were some of the more reliable engines I could tell you about. I can see where these days they might be misunderstood, but there was never anything IME to indicate they were inherently bad or something...

 

[KenO]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: c502cid
Originally Posted By: KenO
I agree with the others. At the very least, if you are adament about avoiding a diesel - get a Vortec 8100 at least. The least sucky of the big blocks, the TBI stuff is really trash. The only other thing I'll say is - if you're paying other people to work on this, whatever you do - keep the engine as stock as possible, sans extremely common mods. Anything deemed as strange or not normal, and you're downtime is going to be exponential due to techs not being familiar with the mods or how the engine will react when things go wrong, let alone finding parts. Your key is going to be keeping the truck up and rolling as much as possible. Downtime shopping for special-order parts isn't profitable.


The TBI engines are very easy to work on, parts availability is excellent, and is much better and more fuel efficient (for a 454 at least) than any carburetor big block. I'd agree on the 8.1 just because you'd be getting a newer truck, but not sure why the hate on the TBI. Very simple, very reliable.


We ran TBI engines for nearly a decade in our fleet, they were some of the more reliable engines I could tell you about. I can see where these days they might be misunderstood, but there was never anything IME to indicate they were inherently bad or something...



They're trash because it's not much better than a carb. It's 2+ decade old electronics, they made [censored] for power at the time as delivered from the factory, and the TBI stuff never got great fuel economy. Multi-port or sequential can be used as an advantage. I gained 3-4 mpg and a TON of torque on my Vortec 350 with just an 0411 PCM swap and a custom tune. I'm prepping to rebuild the engine now (it's old and tired), and am doing a very mild, streetable, reliable build for the sole purpose of being a work truck. Vortec bottom end, TBI swirl-port heads, Ramjet 350/Marine cam, and a big runner TPI intake setup with a target CR of 9.5:1, all off a newer LS1 PCM. [censored], I think the fuel mileage gain I've seen is more the newer PCM with a much faster processor than the tuning itself.

 

[SteveSRT8]

In our fleet they most definitely were NOT trash. They ran just as well, lasted just as long, and were much better than carbs for sure.

I think anyone would agree that PFI is better, but we had DOZENS of TBI vehicles, and had no issues at all. But we weren't racing so power output was not very important to us.

Since we use them to make money all we care about is longevity and resale. Nuttin' wrong with TBI for a real work truck...

 

[joegreen]

Tbi ftw

 

[c502cid]

Something tells me it's a little small block vs big block talk going on here but brother you are wrong about TBI engines being able to flow and work once you start comparing apples to apples. I had a 502HO motor with Merlin heads running a 1000 CFM Holley Projection throttle body, mild cam, chip, etc that would make a 7200lbs crew cab dually truck absolutely move, pull a heavy trailer at the same time up the Rockies where I can blow away your main point.... they are a LOT better then a carb.
And they made comparable power from the factory as everything else at the time. Revisionist history from someone who never had a TBI big block I'm guessing but I may be wrong.
Yeah the newer stuff is a lot better, and I'm building or buying MPFI motors now, but when it came to pulling the carb off my 84 454, there was nothing wrong with the factory TBI set up and it pulls pretty hard. To each his own but you are trashing something that two others with practical experience are saying works pretty good.....

 

[GaleHawkins]

We are currently running 5W-40 T6 Rotella in both the Chevy 454 TBI motor home and Ford 429 F700 16' flat dump. The flat tappets where born to be protected by Zinc but some that is no longer need in the newer generations of motor oil.

 

[artificialist]

The TBI is an improvement over a carb engine, because just before GM built the TBI engine, their carb engines had a large number of electronic controls and smog devices that didn't work well. Now if you had the chance to compare a 454 from 1973 or earlier to a TBI engine, that may be a different story.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Our 1992 454 TBI is in a 32' motorhome and only has about 110K miles on it but it is a power house and have gotten 9 MPH repeatedly in the plain states in our cross country trip a few years ago but more the most part we where buying 93 octane non ethanol fuel which is a plus to get better mileage. Do not buy any big block engine and expect more than 5-6 MPG when loaded to be on the safe side and if you average 6-7 MPG feel good about it. We have had two performance issues and one was the coil under the distributor plate stated to fail and the other one was a very stopped up fuel filter. Both caused a loss of power and popping sounds out of exhaust manifolds.

It was awesome in the mountains. Going south after dark in CA we came up on a hill that we climbed in 2nd gear at 4000 RPM. After I saw a sign that said Grapevine I realized from reading here what was going on.

When in hard loaded pulls like the Rocky Mts it is important to keep the RPM's 3500+ to protect the engine and transmission from heat build up. We could not make more than 2000 RPM when by accident we had to make the 4 mile climb into Yosemite on the Old Priest Run. Engine temps with the AC off went up to but not into the red zone but it had a new recored radiator, water pump, belts and hoses at 92K miles just a preventive maintenance knowing the Pacific Coast run was planned some day which did happen 5 years later.

The reason people hate on the 454 TBI is they owned on that was not set up right. If they never owned a 454 TBI they just are burning up internet band width.

I do not own one but the 8.1 version was the Apex of the big block era.

In the 1989 Ford F700 with the 16' flat dump I am pleased with the carbed 429 engine even with a lot of miles and having seen its better days.

On a side note shops with owners old enough to remember the hey day of the big blocks tell me correct timing on a GM engine is often the make or break factor between a power house and a dog. Setting the timing by a light seems to be hard. The shop that did the exhaust manifold resurfacing (known issues in the pre Vortec engines) and radiator work actually set my timing by ear and 20K miles later all is still well. It still does not burn a quart of oil in 3K miles.

The 454 was used in a lot of boats and in large stationary power generators and many of these were with carbs. Just like with anything including Sears and Wal-Mart the hey day of engines do not last forever as needs and markets change.

As others noted the main issue with any gas big block today is the age of the chassis.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
We are currently running 5W-40 T6 Rotella in both the Chevy 454 TBI motor home and Ford 429 F700 16' flat dump. The flat tappets where born to be protected by Zinc but some that is no longer need in the newer generations of motor oil.


ZDDP is still most certainly present in new generations of motor oil, still necessary and not at levels reduced over "back in the day" oils either. There were actually a few UOA's posted of some extremely old cans of oil from the 60's or 70's and the AW additive levels weren't any higher than the current stuff.