Malaysian 777 shot down over Ukraine

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Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Well, it's a war zone. There are battles just miles away. There would have to be a ceasefire and help from Europe to deal with mess properly. I guess the rebels don't want to admit they are incompetent.


But journalists are in there and fingering the carnage...
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
This is an interesting discovery and was picked up and amplified by all the conspiracy nutjobs on internet. But, it's a legitimate concern. Thinking rationally, there are 3 explanations:


I must repeat to be clear that I didn't copy&paste those timestamps from any funny site, they're video files I downloaded by myself from Youtube.

But yes, it may not tell very much. One logical explanation is that Google's systems could also add those timestamps and they can have wrong date setting.


Ok, I was noted that these are originally in UTC time on camera/editing devices and they are altered when uploaded to Youtube. So they don't mean nothing.
 
You can't trust the metadata unless you enter the metadata yourself for a photo or video. There can be all kinds of issues.

For one thing somebody could alter the metadata if they know how to do that.

You might simply be dealing with different times zones or as you say the original UTC time altered when they upload a video to YouTube.

I am more interested in what people do. Their actions speak for them no matter what they say. As far as I have been able to determine the missile definitely came from the rebel controlled area. There were apparently no Ukrainian anti-aircraft missiles even within range of the airliner. And the rebels THEMSELVES (in social media) boasted about shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane right after the airliner was shot down, and when they found out it was a civilian airliner they removed the posts.

By their deeds shall we know them.
 
Propaganda always seems to be something that only the "other' side employs.

I have not seen mentioned in this thread, that the 777 might have been escorted/followed by some Ukrainian fighter jets, which might have made it seem like a legitimate military target to SAM operators on the ground.

We'll never know the truth anyway.
People will believe what they want to and find 'facts' to support their beliefs.
 
Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
Propaganda always seems to be something that only the "other' side employs.


Right, but it seems that one side is doing more of that than the other. Watch the official russian coverage and see how it changed rapidly after learning at was a civilian jet. Sadly, russians believe the state media. Haven't they learned anything from comunism?

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjUpRD6yMYg#t=56[/video]
 
Supposedly, picture of the actual Buk SAM launch surfaced on the internet. Not fully confirmed.

MH17+4.jpg


http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/
 
It is not propaganda that the 'rebels' were boasting on social media about shooting down a Ukrainian transport plane until they found out it was an airliner. And suddenly the posts were removed.

And there are a lot of people involved in all of this in one way or another. Unless they are willing to kill and silence everybody information might leak out eventually.

And Putin and the 'rebels' seem to be quite willing to anger people in every way that they can. The 'rebels' have literally shot warning shots at investigators and the investigators have been limited in what they can do at the crash site. It is almost like they are deliberately like to anger everybody. Putting the bodies in railroad cars (maybe it is all they had, but it still looks bad), leaving the bodies out in the sun for two days or more, removing aircraft parts, taking off with the black boxes, etc., etc., etc.

If they have nothing to hide they would have allowed investigators in with no conditions, turned over the black boxes to official investigators, and turned over the bodies as soon as possible so that the bodies can be returned to the countries where the people came from and their relatives.

By their deeds shall we know them. I don't have to worry about silly propaganda. Don't look at what somebody says. Look at what they do.
 
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
By their deeds shall we know them. I don't have to worry about silly propaganda. Don't look at what somebody says. Look at what they do.


This would be great advice for many here. Pay no attention to the rhetoric, look at their ACTIONS.

Action is a word our present group will never understand. Ooops, now I'm a 'racist, too?
 
The current wildly believed rumor in russia is the crash was staged by ukraine and they used the previously missing MH370 plane with the missing passengers. Actually, russian people believe it.

The rumor started from the chief rebel:

Quote:
MOSCOW (AP) — A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.

Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/mh17-ukraine-rebels_n_5603470.html
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Action is a word our present group will never understand. Ooops, now I'm a 'racist, too?


Action is great as opposed to inaction. I read you. Like the action to find weapon of mass destruction in the places where they didn't exist. Lets see how those places are better 11 years later. Hm, not better IMHO. ISIS anyone? Aren't they the same people who are heart and liver eaters?
 
I don't know exactly what you are trying to say but ISIS right now is in the process of forcing 300,000 Christians out of the city of Mosul.

And I totally believe that a person shows their true self in their actions and not necessarily it what they say. That has been proven time and again in history.

A little bit of progress is being made with the airliner. Thanks to the Malaysians. The black boxes are being turned over to them. And the bodies of the dead are apparently finally heading home. I am sure the 'rebels' have cleared the crash site of any obvious material from the missile. I guess we will find out if the black boxes were tampered with, but the black boxes may really not provide a lot of information anyway. The pilots may have been killed immediately.

Maybe somebody somewhere show apologize to the families of all of these people killed on this airliner. But I am not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Action is a word our present group will never understand. Ooops, now I'm a 'racist, too?


Action is great as opposed to inaction. I read you. Like the action to find weapon of mass destruction in the places where they didn't exist. Lets see how those places are better 11 years later. Hm, not better IMHO. ISIS anyone? Aren't they the same people who are heart and liver eaters?


Are there any folks who really believe that no WMD were in Iraq? Yet they are in the countries immediately surrounding them that were their allies? C'mon, the US freely advertised the invasion and took months to get ready. That provided an easy opportunity to move them.

And Saddam was murdering people at a horrendous rate. There is much that has never been discussed by most media outlets about his lovely social programs. I'm glad he's gone, but to announce to the world that you're leaving and give a DATE for withdrawal is nothing more than throwing away the lives of our brave servicemen. The result speaks for itself.

I think that the same deluded folks also believe there are no WMD in Syria now, too. C'mon, you got to be smarter than that, too much MSNBC will do that to a fellow...
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think that the same deluded folks also believe there are no WMD in Syria now, too. C'mon, you got to be smarter than that, too much MSNBC will do that to a fellow...


Sure there is, but maybe only in rebel hands by now. Assad has agreed to give up his WMDs and they are dissolving them right now in EU countries.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Action is a word our present group will never understand. Ooops, now I'm a 'racist, too?


Action is great as opposed to inaction. I read you. Like the action to find weapon of mass destruction in the places where they didn't exist. Lets see how those places are better 11 years later. Hm, not better IMHO. ISIS anyone? Aren't they the same people who are heart and liver eaters?


Read leaked Russian INTEL. Prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom even the Russian's had knowledge Iraq had biological and chemical weapons that were not accounted for by the U.N. inspectors.

ISIS has provided an example to the U.S. you can not base military and foreign policy based solely on election campaign promises.
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think that the same deluded folks also believe there are no WMD in Syria now, too. C'mon, you got to be smarter than that, too much MSNBC will do that to a fellow...


Sure there is, but maybe only in rebel hands by now. Assad has agreed to give up his WMDs and they are dissolving them right now in EU countries.


While we are in the process of destroying the WMD that Assad has turned over, it's naive to think that he's turned over everything, or plans to comply fully. He's had years to stockpile and hide the munitions that he wants to keep. There's no way to verify that he's been fully compliant.
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
I think that the same deluded folks also believe there are no WMD in Syria now, too. C'mon, you got to be smarter than that, too much MSNBC will do that to a fellow...


Sure there is, but maybe only in rebel hands by now. Assad has agreed to give up his WMDs and they are dissolving them right now in EU countries.


That's fabulous! But unlike you, I am not so trusting.

Why would anyone anywhere believe anything Assad says?
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14

While we are in the process of destroying the WMD that Assad has turned over, it's naive to think that he's turned over everything, or plans to comply fully. He's had years to stockpile and hide the munitions that he wants to keep. There's no way to verify that he's been fully compliant.


That's true, but it would suicidal to use them anymore, as U.S. has already went few steps away from bombing current regime to dust for Ghouta, and now Russia has enough other worries instead of backing Assad.
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
That's true, but it would suicidal to use them anymore, as U.S. has already went few steps away from bombing current regime to dust for Ghouta, and now Russia has enough other worries instead of backing Assad.


If Putin has retaught the world is this. There is always tomorrow bide your time and do not draw the attention of the entire world. Then strike.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
The current wildly believed rumor in russia is the crash was staged by ukraine and they used the previously missing MH370 plane with the missing passengers. Actually, russian people believe it.

The rumor started from the chief rebel:

Quote:
MOSCOW (AP) — A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash — suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.

Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/mh17-ukraine-rebels_n_5603470.html



This is "better".


"Alexander Grishin Columnist
No pants, but with dignity"
also
"Alexander Boroday: Ukrainian side sabotaging the investigation Boeing crash"
also
"Refugees from Ukraine allocated 5 billion rubles"
and finally
"Journalists loot the wreckage of the "Boeing""


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.kp.ru/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DKomsomolskaya%2BPravda%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dga7%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:eek:fficial%26channel%3Dsb
 
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