M1 0w-40 5360mi 02Miata

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This is the first sample from my 02 Miata SE that I bought with 186,000 mi. on it. I had been running Rotella 5W-40 until the M1 fill that was sampled below. I re-filled with Fuchs Titan SuperSyn 5W-40 and will run a sample when it is change time.

Use is 70% highway. It handles like a go-cart and I do not baby it. Parts replaced include the rear end, driveshaft, AC system, coil packs. I put in a dual row all aluminum radiator to keep temps down.

Html:
OIL M1 0W-40

MILES IN USE 5.36k

MILES 249.9k

SAMPLE TAKEN 6/22/14



ALUMINUM 3

CHROMIUM 1

IRON 9

COPPER 2

LEAD 1

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 73

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 2

BORON 129

SILICON 8

SODIUM 4

CALCIUM 2602

MAGNESIUM 102

PHOSPHORUS 894

ZINC 1040

BARIUM 0



INSOLUBLES 0.2

WATER 0

FUEL
FLASHPOINT ºF 385

SUS VIS 210ºF 66.2

cSt @ 212ºF 11.93
 
The variable camshaft engagement point is not smooth with the RTS when the engine is cold. The engagement point is not noticable with the M1 or the Fuchs. I still use Rotella in the bikes and the lawn equipment.
 
You say you bought it at 186k and now it has 250k. Is this your first UOA?

I have a neighbor from India with a Mazda that he runs the &@#% out of, and has 180k miles.

They seem like sturdy cars.
 
The 1997 Miata in my signature has 190K miles now and I owned that one from new. The mid first gen and second gen Miata's are very well built cars that can go 300K easy if properly serviced. Both of mine have original engine and transmissions. They use an iron block and aluminum heads. The block comes from the old 323 turbo and is overbuilt for the hp output in the Miata. The suspension is unequal length a-arms with coil over shocks on all 4 corners.
 
There must be a typo in your UOA report because it says:

MILES 249.9k

That's why I thought you had 250k miles.
 
Very funny JerryBob! It has 250,648 mi on it as of today. I have been using Denso oil filters as well as RTS or M1 0W-40 from the day I purchased it. I ran a UOA this time to get a baseline for the next run with Fuchs. So far the seat of the pants says the engine is smoother and quieter with the Fuchs. We will see what the UOA says in a few months.
 
No CATERHAM, this is the point that you are supposed to demonstrate that this overly viscous oil is causing damage...other than asking the OP for reasons why he's doing something that obviously is working for him.
 
Thanks for the uoa! Looks like 40 grade is the key for these motors. I suspected so based on how mine performs on it but until now haven't had any proof. Has the 40 grade quieted your lash adjusters at all? By 02 they may have updated them, but my 96 would get very noisy running a 30 at higher temps.
 
The 2002 has solid lifters, opposed to the hydraulic lifters in the '96.

I have had good luck with M1 0W40 in my '99 Miata. It is a dedicated track car at this point. No, I don't have an oil temp gauge or a pressure gauge. Just thousands and thousands of miles on the track. I suspect M1 5W30 or just about any other oil would have worked just as well, these are tough motors that do not seem very picky with respect to oil.

robert
 
Robert you're a brave soul racking up thousands of track miles without at least an OP gauge but the wet sumped Miata presumably
isn't subject to oil starvation at the oil level you're maintaining and level of tire grip.
Or you may be occasionally have oil starvation (l've never owned a wet sumped engine that didn't under certain conditions) and the tough under stressed engine tolerates it and the heavier than necessary oil may help in that regard.

That said, I'd suggest investing in the one time modest cost of
an OP gauge. It's infinitely more useful than UOA.
 
Do you know how many Miatas are out there on track every weekend? It's not a matter of being brave, but a matter of having thousands of people using and learning the platform before me. Yes, at some point it becomes an issue, but it takes an extremely well developed car (and driver).

That said, some day I'll put a sender in and capture the data just because I'm curious.

robert
 
And engines fail all the time the track including those in Miatas. We often invite Miata owners to Lotus track events because its creation was inspired by the original Lotus Elan if we need extra participants to reduce track rental costs.

Installing an OP gauge may seem just a curiosity since you've not encountered any problems to date but I guarantee if you do you will learn something you don't know currently and you'll be glad you did.
And once you know that you're maintaining solid OP under all track conditions, since an PP gauge is a viscometer you can then optimize your viscosity choice for the way you drive and your maximum oil temp's. One common problem on track days with a lot of short track sessions of typically 20 minutes, is that you're inevitably using full power well before the oil is up to even low normal operating temp's. Even with the spec' 5W-30 your oil pump as a result will be in by-pass mode much of the time which is not a good thing. Running a 40 grade oil, even a high VI oil like M1-40, just exacerbates the problem. Fact is unless you can gerate very high oil temps at least occasionally your optimum operational visosity may be acheived with a 0W-20 enabling you to minimize a less than ideal lubrication scenerio while maximizing power.

I could go on but this gives you at least some idea as to why an OP gauge really should be manditory equipment on any track car. An oil temp gauge is very useful as well particularly in conjunction with an OP gauge.
 
CATERHAM, you still owe us the details of the engines that you've seen that have failed due to excessively thick oils on the track...you keep mentioning them, but never give us the detail like which engine, what the teardown looked like, how the heavier oil contributed to the failure given the operating conditions at the time etc. etc.
 
I'm also not sure why being on the bypass much of the time is a "bad thing" given that many mopar engines operate on it through most of the RPM range regardless of what is in the sump. A lot of it has to do with engine design.

With some engines is it sub-optimal/wasting power? Sure. But it isn't doing anything "bad". Unless of course those are your criteria for defining bad.
 
I'll let Shannow answer why it's "bad" to run in by-pass mode since he has in the past.

But I will say this, I don't know of any engine that is still in by-pass running a 20 grade oil at normal operating temp's.
And while I am very familiar with some older engines with very low by-pass OP settings, they still are designed to be out of by-pass at normal operating temp's.

Regarding MOPAR, I was recently talking to a member with a new Dodge Charger that has an OP gauge and the by-pass setting is at 139 psi! The OP test spec' at elivated rev's is 60 psi. Running the spec' 5W-20 not surprisingly he is rarely in by-pass mode.

The point is, with most modern engines the recommended OP is well below the by-pass level, so if you still can't use maximum rev's without going into by-pass at maximum oil temp's, the oil is clearly way heavier than necessary to the point of being counterproductive.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

But I will say this, I don't know of any engine that is still in by-pass running a 20 grade oil at normal operating temp's.


As I said, there are a few Chrysler engines that operate on the bypass frequently. I don't believe they are the only ones, we had a discussion on it recently.

Quote:
And while I am very familiar with some older engines with very low by-pass OP settings, they still are designed to be out of by-pass at normal operating temp's.


Yes, as I've posted about my experience with SBC's and SBF's in that regard. It doesn't mean that they are suffering damage while on the bypass though.

Quote:
Regarding MOPAR, I was recently talking to a member with a new Dodge Charger that has an OP gauge and the by-pass setting is at 139 psi! The OP test spec' at elivated rev's is 60 psi. Running the spec' 5W-20 not surprisingly he is rarely in by-pass mode.


That is similar to the pressure spec'd for the old Ford 351 Cleveland engine. Funny to see that again on something much newer.

Quote:
The point is, with most modern engines the recommended OP is well below the by-pass level, so if you still can't use maximum rev's without going into by-pass at maximum oil temp's, the oil is clearly way heavier than necessary to the point of being counterproductive.


It is ALWAYS well below the bypass; minimum safe OP has always been incredibly low, for an SBC it is something like 10psi, IIRC it was similar for the SBF. But even with the spec oil as hot as you could get it you'd never be anywhere near the minimum safe OP, you'd be 20+PSI above it. The only time you'd get OP that low was when there were no bearings left in the motor.

My old SBF would be on the relief with the 0w-40 in the pan at somewhere around 4,500RPM IIRC. It would still get onto the relief with 0w-20 in it somewhere around 5K, it was definitely lower than the limiter which was 6,250RPM. There was never any "problem" putting that engine onto the relief. When it was warm I beat on it like a red-headed step child and it outlasted two cars and still sits in my garage. That engine has been in pieces a couple of times and looks like the day it rolled off Ford's assembly line and has well over 200,000 miles on it, doesn't burn a drop of oil and still has 38psi hot at idle with a 0w-40 in the sump.

That said, it was always warmed up before being hammered on. I think that's a more important point than ensuring you aren't on the relief at elevated revs when it is hot. There are many engines that are going to be on the relief at elevated revs by design. Any of the SBC and SBF builds I've been involved in or had the privilege of observing have been that way and those engines have lived long and healthy lives making a heck of a lot more power than they ever did new.

My M5 doesn't have an Oil Pressure gauge (BMW didn't apparently feel it was important, they want you to watch oil temperature instead), but I'm quite sure it is likely on the relief at higher rev's too, as a few guys have put gauges on them. Thinking of them with 10w-60 in the pan and how soon they are on the relief probably makes you uncomfortable, LOL
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I'll let Shannow answer why it's "bad" to run in by-pass mode since he has in the past.


Additional Parasitic drag in the oil pump, and additional heat applied to the oil...to the tune of about what a single low beam headlight would draw, and the heating effect that same bulb would apply to your roughly gallon of oil in the sump, spread over the radiative surface area of the engine.b.

(* 20psi assumed difference in pressure between bypass and no bypass for the sake of calculation, 4GPM flow rate)
 
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