Brake Shoes -- better grip than Wagner TQ?

[meep]

I did a full rebuild on the drums in our tundra last year, forced by leaky cylinders and pretty obnoxious squeal under mild braking. All new hardware, rebuilt cylinders, springs, etc. went in as well as new Wagner ThermoQuiet shoes.

I noticed immediately that the new shoes did not have the same stopping power as whatever came out. I have no idea what they were. They also had brake fluid in them, so I really didn't know what the old shoes felt like dry. With the new shoes, the E-brake was not nearly as strong as well-- maybe half as much holding power.

1 year later-- this has become a problem... I adjusted the Level Sensing Proportioning Valve (LSPV) to allow more rear brake action, however that thing has a mind of its own--- and over-adjustment quickly becomes inconsistent braking as it's just looking at bed height at time of application -- so bumps and vibrations play into it.

Current pedal feel-- is awesome. Smooth and firm during application. there is no air in the lines, anywhere. Brake booster holds vacuum and doesn't leak down with the engine off.

Since we tow, and we tow a lot, the fronts are getting beaten pretty bad, especially with the rear being less effective. They seem to have glazed on our last trip, as they smoked some and now have very little bite-- parts on order. I'm seriously considering a rear disc conversion with sequoia parts. It's a bit of coin, however, and I'd consider trying another shoe if anyone has some suggestions.

New shoes??? suggestions? or just bite it and swap to discs?

-M!

 

[Rolla07]

Maybe look into OEM shoes for the rear drums? If you still find it not strong then discs would be a good option for the back brakes. They will give better stopping power over drums. My back drum brakes are still good and its been 120k miles..which leads me to believe that they dont use much pressure to brake the rear wheels. I have akebono pads on the front and like them. Especially towing maybe best to just go with the conversion to discs.

 

[CharBaby]

I am going to assume that these brakes are for the Tundra or T&C.

Not that the TQ's are expensive but, you may want to try some less expensive shoes like WearEver Organic. All shoes for your vehicle(s) show to be ORGANIC!

I've been having some very good success with the WearEver brakes and rotors lately

 

[meep]

sorry-- yes it is the tundra--- and thanks for the thoughts.

the fronts will be rebuilt to raybestos AT-300 rotors and akebono pads -- this combination has been "best ever!" on the mdx.

rear -- Wagner TQ seems to list this as organic on vendor sites, though not on their own manufacturer site.

Shoes get no love any more. there are few choices, few options. AAP has 2 options, autozone gives one--- though it is a "low metallic organic," which may be more aggressive than pure organic.... or the other organic pads just don't list a mild metallic compound. TireRack doesn't even list the shoes at all, whereas with pads, there are a bazillion options.

 

[edwardh1]

oem akebono brand are great, japan made not China made

 

[Ken2]

1--Toyota shoes.
2--Did you take measurements so you can set the rear proportioning valve back where it was? Booster springs??? Those screw up the proportioning. With booster springs you'd need to change the rate the proportioning works, not just the amount of added braking.
3--Is your Tundra one where the rear brakes self adjust when you apply the parking brake? Do you use the parking brake? (That's how my '01 Tundra self-adjusts.) Are the self-adjusters in good operationg condition?
4--Check your trailer brakes for correct operation.
5--Most trailer brakes are not self adjusting. Most need to be manually adjusted periodically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tf1Bc526zE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1PaT3-QJ3s
6--Buy a better trailer brake controller. Get a top performing proportional controller, not a Reese or other time-based controller that increases the braking effort the longer you're on the brakes, and not a pendulum controller that must be adjusted to vertical frequently. Tekonsha Prodigy is excellent, so are a few others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7pO9NBB29o
7--Downshift your transmission on long down grades. "When approaching a grade that is descending substantially and will, or may, cause your vehicle to increase speed above that which you wish to travel, or may be safe, do the following. Slow to the speed, or slightly lower, that you intend to descend the sloop, prior to reaching the crest. Be aware of what traffic may be behind you and use caution as you reduce speed as not to cause any danger. Select a lower gear to maximize engine RPM and driveline resistance. Now maintain any excess speed by short adequate hard applications of the service brakes."
http://blog.rv.net/2011/09/rv-driving-on-extreme-mountain-grades/
Some will say that brakes cost less than a transmission, so don't downshift. A wreck costs more than either. Downshift early so you hold close to the speed you feel is safe (not necessarily the speed limit), then periodically brake as needed, then get off the brakes and let them cool.
8--I really like these Performance Friction 0976.20 Carbon Metallic front pads. http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx
9--Siping tires is questionable, but I like siped trailer tires for better wet braking. http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tireSiping.do

 

[tommygunn]

Unfortunately nobody seems to make high-performance drum brake shoes

If Wagner makes severe duty shoes for your truck, they might be worth considering. If you can find them, Axxis makes shoes.

I don't think Akebono even makes shoes for drum brakes. EBC and Hawk don't, either

But you're probably better off just converting to discs.

 

[Chris Meutsch]

As someone who drove an 80's all-drum Jeep two years ago.....convert to discs out back. It was like pushing an elevator button and then waiting for the stop.

 

[Ken2]

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
But you're probably better off just converting to discs.
Not needed for towing if the trailer brakes work as they should and if the driver uses the engine braking on long downgrades. And, how does one get the correct proportioning with the Sequoia discs and the greater weight of the loaded towing Tundra?

We don't know if Meep is towing a conventional trailer or a 5th wheel. The conventional trailer needs a correctly adjusted weight distributing (equalizing) hitch to put the weight on all four wheels, no more than about 700# on the hitch. The 5th wheel must not be too heavy, maybe a max of 1000# on the hitch, no more than 1200# absolute max including the weight of the hitch. There is a rear brake proportioning valve that limits brake pressure to the rears depending on how close the frame is to the axle--more weight means closer to the axle means more rear braking. Good unless helper springs are added. Then the bed doesn't squat as much, and not enough rear braking is provided for the actual weight. There is no spec for adjusting the proportioning valve with helper springs. It could be done--mark the valve position with an empty bed, put in 1000# of bricks or sandbags, mark the new valve position. Put in the helper springs, add the 1000#, and invent a new shape linkage to give the same valve positions both empty and loaded as you had without the helper springs.

 

[meep]

@ ken2--- you clearly know your stuff---

1--OEM shoes are $100, which seems awfully high for organic shoes. that's probably the only advice I haven't taken -- and that's why!

2-- LSPV oem setting is marked by the clean spot. rear air bags add 1/2" lift unladen. LSPV is set for that 1/2" plus another 3/16", which is as far as it can be adjusted. Even with the bags aired up, the rear drops 2" loaded with the trailer. The braking is pretty tepid even when empty, so I'm thinking it's not just potential lspv adjustment.

3-- Yes, my drums self-adjust whenever the parking brake travel exceeds about 3/4 pedal travel. nice and quick to firm up. use it daily.

4-- Trailer brakes, manually controlled, stop the whole train in a hurry, though they will not lock. they stop us alone quicker than the truck will. dbl axle ~6,000 lbs.

5 -- trailer brakes --they probably have about 1000 miles on them ... ***How often should one adjust T-brakes?***

6-- JUST bought a prodigy P3 controller, and pulled out the Kurt controller that was installed at the RV center. Have not tested it yet.

7-- agree! always pick lower gears and lower speeds for both ascents and descents. It's just smarter to be safe, especially when the trailer outweighs the tow vehicle. 2nd and 3rd are common on descents (and ascents), and I pick the gear before the hill loads up/down.

8-- Performance Friction 0976.20 Carbon Metallic front pads. http://www.performancefriction.com/aftermarket/aftermarket-brake-pads.aspx . ***Noted!***

9--Siping tires is questionable, but I like siped trailer tires for better wet braking. http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/tireSiping.do . that scares me a little!!!

So far--- we've got two votes for OEM shoes and a handful for disc conversion, and a wealth of info from Ken2.

The good news is it doesn't sound like I've missed anything. The bad news is I may not have missed anything, and may be out the cost of oem shoes or a disc kit.

 

[Ken2]

Bendix 764 shoes are under $40.
Raybestos 764PG $35
Toyota 04495-35250 $80+

The trailer brakes are probably due for adjustment if they were new 1000 miles ago. They've bedded in by now.

Slotted rotors have the advantage of allowing hot gases between the pads and rotor to bleed away. The SP brand has worked very well for me on my Tundra.
http://raceshopper.com/sp_rotors.shtml

Adjust your new trailer brake controller so you have about the same foot pressure on the brake pedal for the same braking effort where towing or not towing. You don't want the brakes to lock up, but as you describe, they can work very well.

Why the air bags? 5th wheel? If not a 5th wheel, the weight distribution hitch is exactly what you need, not helper springs (air bags, etc.)

 

[The_Eric]

Ken2 has definitely gotten many of the bases covered- but I have maybe one more thing for you to check... Many people, when installing drum brake shoes don't quite adjust them tight enough. Also most shoes are not curved properly. You can dial the adjuster up until you get a light drag on the drum, them test drive- and it will feel fine. Then a little while later, they feel mushy... Pull the drum off and the shoes are only contacting the drum at one or two points. The self adjusters won't adjust fast enough to account for the rapid initial wear and the shoes won't work correctly.

I used to work with an old timer and one day we were talking about this- he said they used to have a machine that would slip over the shoes (assembled on the vehicle) that would properly round them, avoiding this.

For those who insist that it will only happen on cheap shoes, it used to happen pretty much all the time on the Wagner Thermoquiet. That all we would install at the previous shop, save for a few times where we couldn't get them in time.

My advice would be to pull the drum off and inspect the wear pattern. I'm willing to bet there won't be uniform wear over the surface of the shoe.

 

[DuckRyder]

You might check with Porterfield Brakes.

They may be able to reline your shoes with a more appropriate compound, though I have my doubts that they will be any cheaper (and possibly more expensive) than OEM.

I would try the OEM shoes were it me before going disc conversion...

 

[meep]

those rotors are freakin beautiful. I completely agree with choice of slotted while avoiding drilled. coincidentally, the raybestos rotors I have purchased are slotted as well. it's the at-300. the slotted rotors + proACT pads made a huge difference in my wife's mdx.... much "deeper" pedal--- you'd swear after that brake job that the car could do an "endo" on the front. The brakes don't run out of breath as pressure increases.... they just continue to bite more and more. I've never panic-tested them--- they are that strong. I *know* they will out-brake the tires.

I think my problem lies in adjustment in the rear, or the brake surfaces not being completely bedded in, even after a year-- there have been a few complaints against the wagners online for not mating the brake surface to pad surface evenly. As a "hail Mary" I've been dragging the e-brake off/on for 2 days. My pedal feel hasn't changed, but the brake response is easily double what it was before. I may aggressively tighten them this week and do another burn-in on them. (while I'm now starting to see better stopping from the rear, it has returned to squealing like a$$ in reverse).

It's a bumper pull with WDH, set up by the RV center. I haven't found a happy medium on the spring bars. hooking the "2nd link" drives/feels/sounds the best, but sags. hooking the 3rd link levels everything but takes a LOT of work to get there and results from all kinds of groaning from the back while underway--- requires so much tension I'm actually afraid of bending metal back there. I don't have to run much pressure -- about 22 psi loaded and it firms up the ride and prevents bottoming on bridge joints. that's not enough pressure to level it, but it's close, and I don't want to un-do the work of the spring bars-- it's all sort of a balancing act. That's about 250lbs of up-force by my math. I "rolled my own" on board air with dash gauge and controls so it's a piece of cake to operate, also aids in reducing the force needed to jack the nose up/down when setting the hitch. As you mentioned above, however, it did require some fiddling with the LSPV, but it my experience those mechanisms are still crude and never track perfectly. Heck-- the performance characteristics vary between mixed brake types (drum/disc) so right there it's impossible to have both axles apply consistently-ratio brake force match throughout the range from 0-to-lock anyway. Still, they help avoid unloaded rear lockup, so I'm a fan...

 

[meep]

@The_Eric -- I didn't see your post earlier--- maybe I was writing mine while you were responding -- but yes--- I think you may be exactly right, that sounds exactly like what's going on here.

In your experience, once you get the Wagners worn in, are they acceptable? Or should I just ditch them and buy something else? The wearevers listed above get good reviews...

 

[The_Eric]

Mehh... The ones I have done have gotten better, but (I know you don't want to hear this) I haven't found a shoe in today's day and age that beats or even parallels an OE shoe.

Keep in mind the majority of the ones I have done have been in a shop environment where I couldn't keep playing with them. The few that I've done for myself or friends where I could play with them were okay, but nothing to write home about.

 

[tommygunn]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Mehh... The ones I have done have gotten better, but (I know you don't want to hear this) I haven't found a shoe in today's day and age that beats or even parallels an OE shoe.

Keep in mind the majority of the ones I have done have been in a shop environment where I couldn't keep playing with them. The few that I've done for myself or friends where I could play with them were okay, but nothing to write home about.

Yup, sounds like that post can be summed up in three words: convert to discs.

The lack of good shoes plus the difficulty which you mentioned in an earlier post from this thread, you might as well just swap them out for the much easier discs, which offer a MUCH wider selection of good pads at prices better than most shoes, whether OEM or aftermarket.

 

[Greasymechtech]

Ths tradeoff for quiet or dustfree is lame braking performance.

Google for brake shoe relining. Might be able to get some heavy duty shoes. Porterfield already mentioned. Also check with carbotech, powerstop, or ferodo...

I don't practice or recommend stock diameter slotted or drilled rotors. Pads already have a slot. Use high carbon or cryo'd solid front disks with a real noisy and dusty pad. Check with Hawk, EBC.... or the heavyduty/performance pad selection at Rockauto.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Ths tradeoff for quiet or dustfree is lame braking performance.


This has always been my experience in many road course track rat cars. Not nearly as important in a streeter, but once you get used to that instant bite it can be habit forming.

My car wears its brake dust proudly...

 

[Ken2]

It's not the shoes. The problem is both the manual trailer electric brake controller and the air bags. The air bag helper springs don't let the frame drop enough from the weight, so the rear brake proportioning valve, even with adjustment, doesn't send enough brake fluid to the rears. The only way the rear brakes can do their job with the helper springs is if the linkage was modified with different geometry to give full action of the proportioning valve.

Step 1--
Adjust the weight distributing hitch. First, check the spring bars. 800# bars will work for you, and 1000# bars are OK. 1200# bars are too stiff, exchange them. Grease the pivot ends of the spring bars with some black, dirty moly grease from an auto parts store like a NAPA or other store that sells to excavation contractors and other heavy equipment operators. (I use zip-lock bags to cover the ends when they're out.)

Hitch up & drive to a flat, level paved parking lot. Unhitch, let the air out of the air bags. Measure from a definite point on a front & a rear wheel arch to the ground. Hitch up without the WD spring bars or air bags. Measure again. The rear is down and the front is up. Jack up the tongue jack and connect the WD chains. Retract the jack, measure again. You want the front of your truck to drop a bit and the rear to drop equal or a bit more. If necessary, extend the tongue jack and try a different link. Retract the jack and measure again. If you want to use a half-link, you can find a bolt that fits through between two links (3/8"?) with washers & locking nut that just takes up some space between links. It carries no load, and if it snaps the links just come together.

Now, your truck is level or just slightly down by the back end. If your trailer is level or down in front by an inch or so, great. If not, change the height of the ball on the shank.

Step 2. Readjust the rear brake proportioning valve back to original.

Step 3. Install your new brake controller. Adjust it so you use about the same foot pressure to brake when towing that you use when not towing for the same braking effect.

Step 4. Sell the air bags.