War in Ukraine

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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
If the West has learned anything over the past couple of centuries, it should have learned that it's better to deal with international vermin before they overrun the neighborhood.
To say that we should avoid serious action because it might be difficult is to allow tyranny to reign unchecked.
We've seen this before.
To steal and paraphrase a famous line from Marx, we've seen the tradgedies of the past.
Should we allow them to become the farces of the future?
Russia must be held to the same standards we expect of every other serious nation state.
Western trade and Western capital must not be extended to nations refusing to conform to international norms of behavior.


Excellent post, but all of us are likely to propose a different strategy to achieve a result. We've seen Russia go from a nearly equal super power to their current state of decay. For Putin we are the supreme distraction, keeps the commoners quiet.

Were we truly to 'blockade' them economically (and effectively) they may become even more dangerous as their command and control structure degrades. Russia does not have their weapons as tightly controlled as us. It would also be very easy for them to sell one to the radical Islamists.

There is no easy way to deal with them, but they are only going to become more dangerous...
 
The sanctions imposed on Russia thus far have been a joke. What else are they going to add to the list? Ban on import of stuffed teddy bears?

Most sanctions end up hurting the masses more than they end up hurting the ruling elites.
 
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell

Ashkanazi Khazars (who call themselves jews) who never set foot in the Holy Land until the 1930's when terrorists named Menachem Begin, and Gloda Meir headed up zionist terrorist groups and decided to murder the native semitic peoples and take over their land.

Do I like this fact, no. Is it historically accurate? Absolutely.


RE: Ashkanazi Khazars. No, it's not a fact. It's a highly controversial theory propagated by antisemits and not supported by genetic testing.

As for murdering native semitic people. Is this supposed to be a joke? You probably meant Palestinians, right?
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The sanctions imposed on Russia thus far have been a joke. What else are they going to add to the list? Ban on import of stuffed teddy bears?

Most sanctions end up hurting the masses more than they end up hurting the ruling elites.


If the ruling elites can't travel to the US, can't gain access to the wealth they've stashed in US banks and can't run any transactions through the US financial system, I think they'll get the idea pretty quickly.
Then there's also the embarassment of having your US entity controlled credit card being declined when you try to book a flight to and a hotel in Geneva, or anywhere else.
The Russian masses are already feeling pain and have been for decades.
Until the corrupt crony capatalist system is displaced, nothing will improve for them.
This is also the reason that so many Russians express longing for the Soviet days of old.
At least everybody had a job and while the elites might have gotten to ride around in personal cars and had access to better shopping, economic inequality was nothing close to what it is today.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell

Ashkanazi Khazars (who call themselves jews) who never set foot in the Holy Land until the 1930's when terrorists named Menachem Begin, and Gloda Meir headed up zionist terrorist groups and decided to murder the native semitic peoples and take over their land.

Do I like this fact, no. Is it historically accurate? Absolutely.


RE: Ashkanazi Khazars. No, it's not a fact. It's a highly controversial theory propagated by antisemits and not supported by genetic testing.

As for murdering native semitic people. Is this supposed to be a joke? You probably meant Palestinians, right?


Thanks for that response, FJ. It is sadly true that history is re-written often, and if repeated enough the story becomes accepted as fact.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
If the ruling elites can't travel to the US, can't gain access to the wealth they've stashed in US banks and can't run any transactions through the US financial system, I think they'll get the idea pretty quickly.

Yes, but the ruling elites have plenty of money stashed away, and can somewhat comfortably live off it for some time. While the masses typically have no savings at all, so they'll feel the effects immediately by starving to death.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Until the corrupt crony capatalist system is displaced, nothing will improve for them

Funny thing that is exactly what the rest of the world says about the USA today.
 
As always, the question is not whether a course of action is good or bad. The question is whether it's better (or less bad) than the alternatives.

Sanctions hurt common people more than they hurt ruling elites. That's true. The alternatives are armed conflict and doing nothing. Which is the least bad? I don't know. What I do know is that we can't answer that question by pointing to one good or bad thing at a time. We have to look at the whole package in the context of the whole scenario, and even then the answer will likely be less than clear.

Armed conflict is the fastest and most direct action, guarantees a lot of death and expense, and risks catastrophic escalation. Sanctions mitigate those immediate risks to blood and treasure, render the response blunter and less immediate, and threaten innocent people's livelihoods. Doing nothing saves us from the inherent moral and material risks of positive action, endangers the credibility of our alliances, and makes a sham of international law. Any of those options could fail to solve the problem or sink us deeper into moral peril. Any of them could also have long-term effects that cannot be predicted.

In this particular case, I suspect the White House is right that intelligently targeted sanctions are probably the least of all available evils. I'd never call them a "good" option, though. They just seem to be the shiniest turd, so-to-speak. Either way, that conclusion could easily turn out to be a fatal mistake. Time will tell.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Until the corrupt crony capatalist system is displaced, nothing will improve for them

Funny thing that is exactly what the rest of the world says about the USA today.

Most people, regardless of where they are in the world, also have a hard time understanding that similar problems aren't always similar in severity or implications.

Surely that doesn't include you...
 
Trav, I know your contributions to BITOG well enough to know you're a pretty smart guy. I can't draw any conclusion from that post other than that you're exaggerating for effect. What exactly is your point? There's no reason not to be direct.
 
I am not getting political but the wealth of this country is up for grabs to the highest contributer. Nuff said and that is not exaggerating for effect.
 
Yes, there's widespread corruption in America. What exactly does that mean for our discussion about Russia?
 
According to predictions made by various experts Russia will be in serious decline by 2050. There is a very high death rate in Russia with poor health care and a low birth rate except among certain minorities. The Russian economy is not really very strong. Putin himself has encouraged Russians to have children.

If the predictions of these experts are correct Russian's population will be greatly reduced by 2050. And Russia will probably be in danger of being conquered itself by some country like China except that Russia does have nuclear weapons.

Putin is trying to rebuild the old Soviet Union. But except for ethnic Russians in some countries many of the people in the countries that used to be under Soviet control do not want to be part of a new Soviet Union. And some people who either still are under Russia's control or used to be in the old Soviet Union are violently opposed to Russian rule.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Until the corrupt crony capatalist system is displaced, nothing will improve for them

Funny thing that is exactly what the rest of the world says about the USA today.


While they conduct trade in US dollars, look to American capital markets for financing and export their excess production here, of course.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Thanks for that response, FJ. It is sadly true that history is re-written often, and if repeated enough the story becomes accepted as fact.


And who owns the all the major Western publishing houses?
You know the ones who essentially "write" the history books because they decide which ones to publish?
crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yes, there's widespread corruption in America. What exactly does that mean for our discussion about Russia?


Hey i am not the one who started this crony capitalism thing.
I was stating the fact that the Russians are no worse than the the USA at the moment when it comes to crony capitalism.

What exactly does the US have to do with the Ukraine anyway? They are not in NATO.
Ukraine wanted to be closer to the EU so let the EU handle it and if it gets out of hand then maybe intervene.

There are enough problems right here to worry about, course it does provide a diversion from the ever expanding daily scandals.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Yes, there's widespread corruption in America. What exactly does that mean for our discussion about Russia?


Hey i am not the one who started this crony capitalism thing.
I was stating the fact that the Russians are no worse than the the USA at the moment when it comes to crony capitalism.

What exactly does the US have to do with the Ukraine anyway? They are not in NATO.
Ukraine wanted to be closer to the EU so let the EU handle it and if it gets out of hand then maybe intervene.

There are enough problems right here to worry about, course it does provide a diversion from the ever expanding daily scandals.


And what of our Founding Father, George Washington who wrote that
"We (USA) should avoid foreign entanglements"...

I long ago considered the US gov't an occupied entity not controlled by the interests of ordinary US citizens, but by many in high federal offices with dual citizenship, which in fact goes contrary to our interests.

US meddling in the affairs of others always comes back to haunt ordinary US citizens in the end. "Blow back" as they say is a [censored].
 
Why don't you tell us who owns all the major Western publishing houses?

It does not matter who writes the history books. I think it was you who said the victors write the history books. Well, the victors eventually become the vanquished. No empire lasts forever. And the historians who remain famous are the ones who tell the truth. So the history books in the long run have a way of being self-correcting and accurate, regardless of any empires or historians who want to write fables.

And I don't believe in the 'Shadow government' or the 'elites' who are supposedly in control of the entire world or, for that matter, the 'Nine Unknown.'
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
I was stating the fact that the Russians are no worse than the the USA at the moment when it comes to crony capitalism.

So you really were saying what I thought you were too circumspect to say. Bummer.
frown.gif
 
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