400°C Oil Test?

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The test in it self is very interesting since it displays
fundamental differences between oils which we are led to
believe perform identically.
I still maintain that a sieve might reveal even more about the
oils ability to withstand extreme tamperatures.
/Roger
 
here is some basic translation to give an idea what author trying to explore:

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Deciding to run "Noack test" (The NOACK Volatility Test, otherwise known as ASTM D-5800) using wider temperature diapason and a time durations, lead to results is drastically different results, despite like the same oil.

At the initial state during the heat the oil became darken with varying degrees of intensity.

BUT, reaching a temperature of 250-270 degree Celsius, one of the very common oils on the market, produce a noticeable bottom sediment within minutes ...

So this first result became a borderline: Sedimentation (or polymerization) appears in a minute or less; when the oil reach a critical temperature.

When the liquid fraction was tested in the lab the result for about ten different tests, polymerized and the clean ones was the same:

Viscosity for 100 Сelsius for ALL test without exception (good and bad) give between 4-6 cCt, equally to base-stock oil. Same test for SAE50, 20W50, 10W60 give a result around 7-12 cCt

An initial assumption was: viscosity modificator fail under high temperature: Same test of manufactured "stop smoke"; "oil stabilizator" e.t.c. ;as all of them in fact viscosity modificators; do not produce the same repeatable result with sediment as was initially discovered with bad oil.

Finally analyzes was done on 3 different oil type that pass high temperature test:

produce a clean result:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmwservice/44166753/23484/23484_600.jpg

moderately dirty:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmwservice/44166753/23679/23679_600.png

completely dirty:
http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmwservice/44166753/23808/23808_600.png


Then result was tested in the lab:
ALL oils with clean result keep additives as it was in the initial oil.
moderately or dirty oil drop more then half all additives in sedimentation.

Conclusion:

The main problem of modern synthetic motor oils - is low chemical stability in the final product.
This behavior perfectly and simply visible even in the Lab without any mechanical or Chemical forces, or any kind of load that do not "perfecting" the oil stability.

These processes of polymerization take place outside of the full amount of oil (oil pan), it happens locally in a very thin layer at the high temperature areas, with poor oil circulation and high pressures, and therefore practically not visible to any modern techniques.

Author's major idea is: such the oil behavior produce the oil ring sticky, move-less, non working; that finally lead to significant oil consumption and the engine degradation.

The author working in auto service industry, specifically BMW engine diagnostics; by bore-scope etc....
And his years and years of observation of faulty engines lead to such a simple correlation:

Look at Hot temperature European engine; not a perfect design of oil rings; heavy traffic stop-and-go with minimal air circulation and top temperature under hood

adding the oil that able to do polymerization in the most sensitive parts of engine, (piston rings) lead to significant problems under 100K KM (60K Mile)

His universal recommendation is 0W40 Mobile1 - as wide available, stable oil
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: rogan
All the test reveals is which oils leave surface residue when supjected to very high temperatures (from that surface).


and this is exactly the residue that forms in ring pack areas when oil is exposed to very hot pistons.


Specially when the engine is shut down. while its running the oil is cahnged all the time, but when it's turned off ... I idle my engines for 2 minutes before shut down, even if they are NA, just to spread the heat at ring pack area.
 
IMO this 400C test isn't valid, because the oil temperature do get about near that temperature, but only for a fraction of time and in small areas around CC. soon the hot oil get mixed with colder at sump. The tests keep boiling the whole oil for a long time. That's not how it works in an engine te condition is dispar. Even when you shut down the engine only a small fraction of the volume (ring pack area) gets overheated above 300C. That's why it take so long to get those residues in a motor. If you idle your engine for 2 minutes or so, you'll spread the heat and avoid the burnt oil that could make stuck rings.
 
motor oil flash point around 240 C; boiling point around 300C
oil as a liquid can not reach 400C; under a normal condition

the articles pointed that some oil mixes can not withstand even 280-290C; breaking down in a seconds. fall in polymerization process, not as a regular evaporation process and leaving just carbon deposit.

Imagine:
pedal to the metal then stop on intersection - imagine the process around the ring..
 
Originally Posted By: DrAdmin
motor oil flash point around 240 C; boiling point around 300C
oil as a liquid can not reach 400C; under a normal condition

the articles pointed that some oil mixes can not withstand even 280-290C; breaking down in a seconds. fall in polymerization process, not as a regular evaporation process and leaving just carbon deposit.

Imagine:
pedal to the metal then stop on intersection - imagine the process around the ring..


Sure, while the engine is running, even in idle, the oil pressure and flow is relatively high to often change all the oil in that area. But if the engine is shut down while climbing a steep hill or at high speed in a highway, I think it wold boil off at those 280-290C you pointed out.
 
Both the Mobil 1 "USA" 0W-40 and AFE 0W-30 seem to hold up very well.

The Toyota 5W-30 did OK too, likely US product as it's in a quart bottle. I wonder if they will be testing the US TGMO 0W-20?
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
and this is exactly the residue that forms in ring pack areas when oil is exposed to very hot pistons.


Specially when the engine is shut down. while its running the oil is cahnged all the time, but when it's turned off ... I idle my engines for 2 minutes before shut down, even if they are NA, just to spread the heat at ring pack area.


quoted, as you've made that statement a number of times, and it's not really correct.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...e_a#Post3372187

Indicates that the oil in the ring pack spends around a minute at the replenishment rate..."changed all the time" is correct, but being at piston ring belt temperatures for a minute is an eternity for half a cubic centimetre of oil...i.e. it reaches ring belt temperature, and stays there for many tens of seconds.
 
Nice find DrAdmin...thanks.

Wish they used M1 0w40 229.5

PYB 10w30 makes more sense everyday.
 
My first test:
PP 5WS30 GTL base:
boil about 20 min, then put aside in 5 min open cover it it fumes self-igited,overall process very smoky and stinky, even stay aside i get smelled, tshirt to laundry , myself to shower
wink.gif

25ujuig.jpg

flask:
xnynnn.jpg

result:
30wq9v7.jpg


very, very lovely result in my eyes
 
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