Malaysian 777 shot down over Ukraine

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
This is an interesting discovery and was picked up and amplified by all the conspiracy nutjobs on internet. But, it's a legitimate concern. Thinking rationally, there are 3 explanations:


I must repeat to be clear that I didn't copy&paste those timestamps from any funny site, they're video files I downloaded by myself from Youtube.

But yes, it may not tell very much. One logical explanation is that Google's systems could also add those timestamps and they can have wrong date setting.

 

[Mystic]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Oh wait, there is one way.

Download youtube video from here with some youtube downloader in mp4 form and check metadata like I did.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/07/...issing-missile/

Here is a print:

"Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'buklauncher.mp4':
Metadata:
major_brand : mp42
minor_version : 0
compatible_brands: isommp42
creation_time : 2014-07-17 10:01:49
Duration: 00:00:13.04, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 450 kb/s
Stream #0.0(und): Video: h264 (Constrained Baseline), yuv420p, 640x360 [PAR 1:1 DAR 16:9], 350 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 50 tbc
Stream #0.1(und): Audio: aac, 44100 Hz, stereo, s16, 96 kb/s
Metadata:
creation_time : 2014-07-17 10:01:49"

Video is fake, it was shot 5-6 hours before shot down.


Okay, let us assume that the launcher shown being transported is the same one as shot down the airliner. You say the video was shot 5-6 hours before the airliner was shot down.

So how far from the 'rebel' controlled area is the Russian border? I don't know where the missile (or missiles) hit the airliner at, but the wreckage from the airliner is now about 25 miles from the Russian border. Maybe the launcher was being transported to Russian to get two fresh missiles. The launcher is useless without missiles obviously. And maybe they don't want to store a lot of anti-aircraft missiles in the 'rebel' controlled territory. They had two missiles left on the launcher and they wanted to load two more. So if it is a short drive to the Russian border in 5-6 hours they could have loaded two fresh missiles and then transported the launcher back into position.

In addition, there could have been a second launcher.

In addition, as has been stated the Russians might have changed the metadata or copied the video with fake metadata.

And we may just be dealing with time zone differences here.

So I don't care about the metadata. I am going to judge people by their actions (By their deeds shall we know them).

1. According to satellite data the missile (or missiles) was launched from the 'rebel' controlled area.

2. The 'rebels' are making it very difficult for independent investigators to examine the aircraft wreckage. At this point nobody knows what has happened to the black boxes. It has been reported that some air crash wreckage may have been removed to an unknown location. And the 'rebels', even with their automatic weapons, are making no great attempt to secure the crash site. If the 'rebels' are innocent of any wrong doing they would be eager for the airliner wreckage to be checked out by independent investigators. The black boxes would have been located and turned over to the proper investigators. Only if people have something to hide are they going to make it hard for independent investigators to examine the wreckage.

3. On social media the 'rebels' even bragged about shooting down a transport plane at the same time that the airliner was shot down. And when they discovered it had been an airliner they removed the Tweets.

The BEHAVIOR of the Russians and the 'rebels' tells me everything I need to know.

And the BEHAVIOR of Putin and the 'rebels' towards the human remains at the crash site tells me a lot about Putin and the 'rebels.' Some people in this world still believe in right and wrong and morality and still have a conscience. I don't steal from the dead. And the dead human beings should have been shown at least a little respect.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
edit. For unknown reasons, MH17 was asked to descend to that altitude from 35 000 feet.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malay...3000ft-says-mas


The guardian did not report MH17 was instructed to descend from 35,000 feet. This is contradictory to your source.

"Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was flying just 1,000 feet (300 metres) above restricted airspace when it was shot down, according to the European air traffic control body.

Eurocontrol said Ukrainian authorities had barred aircraft from ground level to 32,000 feet but the doomed aircraft was cruising at 33,000 feet, still within range of sophisticated ground-to-air weaponry, when it was hit. All flights in eastern Ukraine have now been barred from the area, Eurocontrol added.

"The aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 [approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 ft] when it disappeared from the radar," said. "This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 [32,000ft] but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ju...ricted-airspace

I will add if the Kremlin and the "Ukrainian Separatist" had any desire to be exonerated for the downing of flight MH-17 access would have been granted to investigators and the wreckage field would be sanitized as much as possible. Instead reports like the following published from the "Ukrainian Separatist".

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that “a significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh,” adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=324601:busted-russia-caught-red-handed-editing-mh17-info&Itemid=2#axzz37w7OOSIr

Also I will add if there is any doubt the objective of the "Ukrainian Separatist' read russkayavesna.ru.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://russkayavesna.ru/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRusskaya%2BVesna%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DlqF%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26channel%3Dsb

The political cartoons depicting the lowly Jewish, American/NATO, and European Union forces opposing an enraged Putin and the Russian Bear. Below this imagine is an illustration of Ukraine colored with a Russian flag.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
edit. For unknown reasons, MH17 was asked to descend to that altitude from 35 000 feet.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malay...3000ft-says-mas


The guardian did not report MH17 was instructed to descend from 35,000 feet. This is contradictory to your source.


Ok, but this difference might not be relevant. According to Flightradar there was another plane (Flight SIA351,
Singapore Airlines) in the area at 35,000 ft, so MH17 couldn't use that flight level anyway.

 

[Mystic]

If the restricted airspace was 32,000 feet and below than the Malaysian airliner was still out of restricted airspace, even if it did fly above the 'rebel' controlled area. Now if I was in charge of Malaysian airlines I would not be flying at all near that war zone. But that is another story. I am not going to blame the victims for what happened.

Probably what happened was you had poorly trained people manning that anti-aircraft equipment (or incomplete equipment available) and maybe they did not even check for a transponder. They thought they could shoot down another Ukrainian transport plane. And they shot down the airliner instead. And apparently the launcher has now been moved to Russia.

Why somebody would try to come up with excuse after excuse for the 'rebels' and Putin is beyond my understanding. It is known that the missile came from a 'rebel' controlled area. The 'rebels' THEMSELVES bragged on social media about shooting down a transport plane at the same time the airliner was shot down and then when they learned it had been an airliner they removed what they had posted. Fairly decent circumstantial evidence I would say.

Whatever Putin and the 'rebels' do with the airliner wreckage really does not matter at this point. They could destroy all of the airliner wreckage and bury the bodies in mass graves and we would still know what happened. And their attempts to try to destroy some of the evidence at the crash site just makes the case even more certain. They can gather up all of the ball bearings and the chemical residue and the missile parts and tamper with the black boxes and whatever. The world already knows what happened.

And now we know everything we need to know about Putin and the 'rebels' by their actions. Good enough for me.

 

[Astro14]

Criticizing the decision to fly over the Ukraine is not "blaming the victims". The victims on this flight chose to fly on Malaysian Airlines.

It is Malaysian Airlines that chose to fly this route, when US airlines were avoiding the airspace completely. That decision should be questioned, and should be criticized.

Flying that route exposed this flight to the risk of incompetence and/or malice on the part of the SAM operators.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
It is Malaysian Airlines that chose to fly this route, when US airlines were avoiding the airspace completely. That decision should be questioned, and should be criticized.

Flying that route exposed this flight to the risk of incompetence and/or malice on the part of the SAM operators.


Ukrainians could have closed that air space too if they knew the Buks where there as they now claim. But obiviously it's not their or Malaysian Airline's fault at the end if the evidence shows that pro-russian Buk operator made a disastrous decision.

There are these Rules of Engagement to follow especially with a weapon like that.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Astro14

Flying that route exposed this flight to the risk of incompetence and/or malice on the part of the SAM operators.


OK, I'll bite. Long range SAMs are used in almost any major country (including some shady ones). Any military may contain incompetent and/or malignant persons. Thus, should be ban flying commercial passenger planes altogether?

What I'm saying is, now it's easy to judge after the fact. The reality is commercial passenger planes are very rarely brought down by SAMs, especially at the cruising altitudes. There were only 2 other instances I remember (certainly fewer than pilot suicides). One of them was weirdly enough in Ukraine too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
Another one was done by US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

I'm sticking to my point. The person who shots the missile is guilty, not the plane operator who gets hit.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I'm sticking to my point. The person who shots the missile is guilty, not the plane operator who gets hit.

Nobody is arguing with you on this point. What some of us are saying is that if the airline exercised caution (like many other airlines did), 298 lives may not have been lost.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I'm sticking to my point. The person who shots the missile is guilty, not the plane operator who gets hit.

Nobody is arguing with you on this point. What some of us are saying is that if the airline exercised caution (like many other airlines did), 298 lives may not have been lost.


..and, if Putin and company had not lent their best toys to a bunch of hooligans, this aircraft would not have been brought down.
The blame game begins and ends with Putin's Russia.
Time to call his bluff and bring him down.
How?
The US controls world trade since almost nothing moves without the payment of US dollars being touched by US banks.
Freeze their flow of dollars and they go down with a quickness.
Our president should make it very clear to Mr. Putin that his bluff is called and he should retire peacefully while he still has that option.
In no way should this thug be dealt with as an equal head of state.
He should be treated as the trash that he is.

 

[Mystic]

I agree 100% that it certainly would have been better if that Malaysian airliner was not flying in that area. But on the other hand few people realize that airliners constantly fly over many dangerous regions. For example, airliners fly over Iraq. And it is my understanding that the restricted airspace extended only up to 32,000 feet above the 'rebel' controlled area. And the Malaysian airliner was above that.

If things keep getting worse in the world we may have to ground the world airliner fleet in many areas. What if the ISIS people in Iraq get hold of weapons like this? No airliner would be able to fly over Iraq.

Probably few people in airliners realize just how many dangerous areas they are flying over as they travel across the world.

But I am not going to excuse the murder of 298 people in a civilian airliner.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I'm sticking to my point. The person who shots the missile is guilty, not the plane operator who gets hit.

Nobody is arguing with you on this point. What some of us are saying is that if the airline exercised caution (like many other airlines did), 298 lives may not have been lost.


Precisely.

 

[Astro14]

Mystic - as an airline pilot, I've flown over a lot of places, including Iran.

Companies, and pilots, must continually assess the risk that routes pose to them. Those risks include things like weather, terrain, and yes, armed conflict and civil unrest.

Because of ISIS, United is now flying around Iraq on its routes to the Middle East...this costs us in additional time, fuel and crew cost from the longer flight ...but we are assessing the risk and balancing that cost against the risk.

 

[Mystic]

It looks like they are finally going to do something about the human bodies. After two days. Some of the bodies were placed in refrigerated rail cars. But there are other bodies that were taken to unknown locations and there still seems to be mass confusion when it comes to all of that. And people are still walking around the wreckage.

Since Putin is really running the show when exactly is he going to order some sanity in the investigation of this airliner?

Supposedly the black boxes are going to be turned over to some aviation group.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Since Putin is really running the show when exactly is he going to order some sanity in the investigation of this airliner?

Investigation? What's the point. You know what the findings will be. "Ukraine did it!"

 

[Mystic]

I don't think we really need the aircraft wreckage anyway. They apparently have solid evidence that the missile was fired from 'rebel' controlled area and the 'rebels' themselves were bragging on social media that they had shot down a Ukrainian transport plane. This was immediately after the airliner had been shot down. And then when the 'rebels' found out an airliner had been shot down they removed what they had posted on social media.

So it really does not matter what kind of games Putin wants to play. He can keep the black boxes if he wants to.

I don't know how families of the victims will feel about the bodies being placed in refrigerated railcars. But maybe that is all they had available. It is disturbing however that something like 38 bodies were taken away and nobody seems to know exactly where. And there are still bodies missing. I realize they may have limited capacity at proper refrigerated mortuaries and they may have had no choice but the refrigerated railcars. But it took them all of two days or so to figure out to do that. Ultimately the families will want the bodies back. It is quite possible they will never find all of the bodies.

Based on what I have been able to find out there was considerable looting at the crash site. And the Russians and the 'rebels' have probably been trying to remove any evidence that a missile was involved in shooting down the airliner. If it is even possible to remove all evidence for sure. No matter how carefully they try to remove all evidence there could still be chemical traces. Don't they even realize that?

 

[fdcg27]

Looting from dead bodies?
Pretty classy, but also a comment on just how desperate these people are.
When you have nothing, the watch, wedding ring and wallet from some dead soul must seem like a bonanza.
Yet another example of why Russia needs to join the modern world and leave the government of kleptocrats in the dust of history.
The kleptocrat in chief should be the first to go.

 

[Astro14]

Refrigerated rail cars that were lacking the fuel to run the refrigerators...

This just keeps getting worse.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Well, it's a war zone. There are battles just miles away. There would have to be a ceasefire and help from Europe to deal with mess properly. I guess the rebels don't want to admit they are incompetent.

 

[Mystic]

I can't believe Putin and the Rebels would be hanging on to dead humans. But of course there could be evidence on those bodies also, such as chemical residue from the missile.

It is going to cause major problems for Putin and the Rebels if they continue to hang on to those bodies and not release the bodies to the countries where those people came from.