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#3428179 - 07/18/14 06:46 AM kv100 or/and hths100 ?
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Ok!shannow pointed me a small data i had not notice and wasnt even comprehending its significance till he was very nice and explained a bit.

My question!is kv100 relevent ?or should user use hths 100 to filter their oil choice.by the look of things it doesnt look like hths 100 value availability is common.
And as shannow pointed out to me ,the hths 100 value is often far from the kv100 value
One thing i like is with the hths 100 value you can compare with its hths 150 value upper temp one (saw a kv100 value of 11 becoming 7.19 (aprox) in hths100.
My question is:how we can know wich value the car maker expect.
Is my car expecting a hths 100 of 10 or a kv100 of 10?
As you can see there might be a lot of room of interpretation
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#3428239 - 07/18/14 07:49 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
The HTHS value is always measured at 150 C, not 100.
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#3428253 - 07/18/14 07:59 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: dparm]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
http://i58.tinypic.com/1s1a2v.jpg

I guess walmart and its oil maker didnt get the memo

Astm d6616 hths 100
Astm d5481 hths 150
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#3428265 - 07/18/14 08:08 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2190
Loc: Southeastern USA
yvon, can you tell us what the difference between centipoise and centistokes is? Do you understand the difference between dynamic and kinematic viscosity?

And precisely what memo is it that Wal-Mart adn WPP didn't get?

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#3428272 - 07/18/14 08:13 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26867
Loc: a prison island
Before I get dragged further through the muck...

I was trying to explain some stuff on the data sheets in this thread...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3428167/Re:_Walmart_SuperTech_Syntheti#Post3428121

This PDS, and some papers have a high shear 100C for comparison.

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#3428276 - 07/18/14 08:17 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
http://i58.tinypic.com/1s1a2v.jpg

I guess walmart and its oil maker didnt get the memo

Astm d6616 hths 100
Astm d5481 hths 150



Well, you can technically measure HTHS at 100 C, but that's a very unusual measurement. I almost never see that posted. I suppose I shouldn't have said that HTHS is 'always' measured at 150 C.
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#3428279 - 07/18/14 08:19 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
CourierDriver Offline


Registered: 12/27/09
Posts: 3145
Loc: Tennessee
Hmmm,,bottom, if the pistons and rings and valves are slipping and sliding and all is good, drive baby drive, imho
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#3428290 - 07/18/14 08:30 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Sorry guys , its just that from my external point of view ? It look like a fog of marketing number is cloaking the real values .i just try to simplify process selection .i felt hths 100 and hths 150 would do nicelly
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#3428297 - 07/18/14 08:44 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25941
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
i felt hths 100 and hths 150 would do nicelly

As was pointed out earlier, HTHS is almost never reported at 100C. It is normally reported at 150C, and this measurement is used as one of the critical parameters of many euro specs such as ACEA, VW, MB, BMW, etc. Many of these Euro engines expect the oil's HTHS (150C) Viscosity to be at least 3.5 cP.

The kinematic viscosity at 100C is secondary. Another words, those specs don't care what it is, as long as HTHS at 150C is at least 3.5 cP. Granted, it's quite difficult (or impossible) to formulate an Xw-20 oil that would still have such high HTHS viscosity, so in reality these oils will be at least heavy Xw-30, often Xw-40 grade.

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#3428301 - 07/18/14 08:54 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2190
Loc: Southeastern USA
yvon, I guess that a simple answer to your question regarding which viscosity the car manufacturer expects (ref quote: "My question is:how we can know wich value the car maker expect.") would be to follow the specific requirements that they publish in their owner's manual.

All oils with equal viscosity ratings that are certified to comply with API norms will have similar HT/HS viscosities. It is simply part of the requirement to meet the specification. Oils with higher HT/HS viscosities won't meet the fuel economy requirement.

So in a nut shell, you know which HT/HS viscosity the engine manufacturer wants you to use based upon their specification that they call for in the owner's manual.

An example being that European cars don't specify API oils because they want higher HT/HS viscosities. VW's 502/505, 504/507, BMW's LL-01/LL-04, MB's 229.5/229.51 oils can all be had in 5W-30 viscosity but they all specify HT/HS above 3.5cP's. It is for this reason that their oils don't carry API ratings and no 5W-30 on the shelf at Wal-Mart meets their specifications.

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#3428304 - 07/18/14 09:00 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: FowVay]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25941
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: FowVay
It is for this reason that their oils don't carry API ratings

To be clear, they can and do carry API ratings. They just don't carry the energy conserving ones (starburst symbol or ILSAC GF5).
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#3428368 - 07/18/14 10:07 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
OP, the reason that HTHS @ 150C is important is because it most closely approximates the operational viscosity.

Think of it this way: the KV @ 100C value isn't very useful because the oil isn't really spending much time at that temperature, except for maybe when it's sitting in the oil pan (and who cares about that). In the places it truly matters, like bearings, the oil is hitting 150 C or higher.
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#3428384 - 07/18/14 10:23 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: FowVay]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11666
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: FowVay
All oils with equal viscosity ratings that are certified to comply with API norms will have similar HT/HS viscosities. It is simply part of the requirement to meet the specification. Oils with higher HT/HS viscosities won't meet the fuel economy requirement.

And, the HTHS requirements, be they a minimum or maximum, usually call for the HTHS 150 measure, too. So, if we're without HTHS 100 for the most part, it's just the way it is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the standard HTHS 150 that we customarily see. It's quite a useful measure, obviously.
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#3428413 - 07/18/14 11:21 AM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Wow!ty guys,so for simplicity sake acea way (hths 150)is a fair way to rate an oil viscosity. (But would not meet the energy conserving limit for hths 150) ty guy now it make real world sense to me
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#3428444 - 07/18/14 12:10 PM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: yvon_la]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25941
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
(But would not meet the energy conserving limit for hths 150)

I'm not really sure what you wrote here.

In simplest terms, an oil that has an HT/HS Viscosity of 3.5 cP or higher will not meet the energy conserving requirements stipulated in ILSAC GF5 spec.

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'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
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#3428449 - 07/18/14 12:16 PM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: Quattro Pete]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
(But would not meet the energy conserving limit for hths 150)

I'm not really sure what you wrote here.

In simplest terms, an oil that has an HT/HS Viscosity of 3.5 cP or higher will not meet the energy conserving requirements stipulated in ILSAC GF5 spec.

yep
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#3428461 - 07/18/14 12:29 PM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: Quattro Pete]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
(But would not meet the energy conserving limit for hths 150)

I'm not really sure what you wrote here.

In simplest terms, an oil that has an HT/HS Viscosity of 3.5 cP or higher will not meet the energy conserving requirements stipulated in ILSAC GF5 spec.




There's some dubiousness about Renewable Lube around this. They claim the 0w30 is HTHS of 3.6-3.8 but also call it energy conserving. I've never gotten a clear answer out of them on this.

Then again, their basestocks and chemistry seem to be quite advanced so it's possible that the HTHS is a bit lower (3.2-3.4?) but the formula is so stout that it maintains that viscosity for a very long time.

The fact that their 15w40 is really a 5w40, and almost a 0w40, leads me to believe there is some very sophisticated engineering they keep secret.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3428487 - 07/18/14 12:54 PM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: dparm]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25941
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: dparm
The fact that their 15w40 is really a 5w40,

If the oil meets the cold viscosity test requirements of 5w, then it should be labeled as such. Unless of course they don't claim any API/SAE J300 compliance, in which case they can call it anything they want.
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'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
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#3428741 - 07/18/14 08:26 PM Re: kv100 or/and hths100 ? [Re: Quattro Pete]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12541
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dparm
The fact that their 15w40 is really a 5w40,

If the oil meets the cold viscosity test requirements of 5w, then it should be labeled as such. Unless of course they don't claim any API/SAE J300 compliance, in which case they can call it anything they want.




They label it as 15w40 for marketing purposes -- HDEO users want to see 15w40, even though the 5w40 might be superior. Bill told me this. Supposedly it's very close to being a 0w40.
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