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#3425568 - 07/15/14 02:34 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 13210
Loc: Clovis, CA
I'm constantly monitoring which gear my car is in and when it shifts.

A CVT transmission that never shifts would drive me batty.

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#3425670 - 07/15/14 03:59 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
Burt Offline


Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 1222
Loc: texas
How about they put a fake stick and clutch pedal in too?
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#3425727 - 07/15/14 05:05 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: Burt]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5247
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Burt
How about they put a fake stick and clutch pedal in too?


I think a simulated stick and clutch pedal would sell well, fake not so much. wink

Seriously though, I am also baffled why anyone would want to feel the shifts. After reading all the comments in the manual transmission thread how it's and "old" and "inferior" technology, why would anyone still be stuck with the "old" and "inferior" concept of fixed ratio gears?


Edited by KrisZ (07/15/14 05:06 PM)
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#3426023 - 07/15/14 09:58 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: KrisZ]
expat Offline


Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 4931
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Burt
How about they put a fake stick and clutch pedal in too?


I think a simulated stick and clutch pedal would sell well, fake not so much. wink

Seriously though, I am also baffled why anyone would want to feel the shifts. After reading all the comments in the manual transmission thread how it's and "old" and "inferior" technology, why would anyone still be stuck with the "old" and "inferior" concept of fixed ratio gears?


An active stick to control the transmission cones might be interesting.
Kind of like having Hydrostatic drive.

I think the Daff CVT of the 60's and 70's had the cones controlled by engine vacuum. I have driven them, they worked quite well.
For maximum speed you had to back off on the throttle :-)


Edited by expat (07/15/14 10:02 PM)

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#3426080 - 07/15/14 11:41 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 31701
Loc: Oz
Had a fair bit of seat time in a maxima early July, and honestly the programmed ratios in the cvt were a highlight.

Only there in 'sport' mode, engine revved out and shifyed nicrly...plain auto was more prius like. Sports 'm' you had 6 ratios to work with on corners and engine braking.

I liked it personally.

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#3426110 - 07/16/14 01:07 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 13210
Loc: Clovis, CA
I'd rather have an 8-speed car. The quickest cars in town are the 8-speed Infinities.

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#3426133 - 07/16/14 03:14 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
gregoron Offline


Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 655
Loc: Hawaii
This defeats the purpose of the CVT, which is programmed to keep the engine at its optimal power band. Each shift reduces the benefit. Either get an automatic or a stick if you want shift sensation.
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#3426219 - 07/16/14 07:02 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: gregoron]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 13695
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: gregoron
Either get an automatic or a stick if you want shift sensation.


The point is that CVTs are increasingly replacing automatics altogether, and the customer has no choice but the CVT. The nice part about it is if they want the smooth feel of the CVT, they can have it. If they want the feel of a stepped transmission, they can have it. Flexibility is great.
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#3426236 - 07/16/14 07:21 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 7388
Loc: NH
How many shift points does it have? None going up, and six going down? 8 going up, and 9 going down? Not only that, but nothing says it has to be the same "ratio" at each point. It could decide to make a step this time and do a slide next time.

I think the rubber band effect would drive me nuts. Lately I've been wondering how people managed before lockup torque convertors. The two hundred rpm "rubber" effect I can hear when it's unlocked bugs me. I could imagine a 1,000rpm effect or more.

Then again, I prefer an engine to lug down and just torque its way out of something.

I am pretty sure I've asked this in the past, but never gotten a good answer: what would manual control of a CVT look like? On an automatic it's pretty easy: up/down manual selection of the fixed gear ratios. On a CVT, would it just be a slide switch? Seems like manually fixed ratios would be required on a CVT--otherwise, one could not have manual control.
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#3426268 - 07/16/14 07:56 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: Hokiefyd]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 10056
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
The point is that CVTs are increasingly replacing automatics altogether, and the customer has no choice but the CVT. The nice part about it is if they want the smooth feel of the CVT, they can have it. If they want the feel of a stepped transmission, they can have it. Flexibility is great.

Increased choice is a good thing only if the additional options are worthwhile. If I could only have toast for breakfast, adding eggs to the menu would be a meaningful increase in choice. Adding cyanide tablets wouldn't be.

"The feel of a stepped transmission" is three things:

1. Shift shock
2. Interruption in power delivery
3. The engine falling in and out of the optimal RPM range for whatever you're trying to do

In other words, all bad things.

I put up with all of those things in my car because it's manual, which means my toleration buys me a measure of control that I couldn't get otherwise. What is the argument for putting up with -- let alone WANTING -- those bad things in an automatic?

So far, all people have said is that stepless transmissions make the car feel broken. Everyone seems to understand that they only feel that way because they're used to "the feel of a stepped transmission." In other words, it's just habit. Why is nobody thinking "maybe I should look at it differently?"
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#3426371 - 07/16/14 10:44 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: d00df00d]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 13695
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
"The feel of a stepped transmission" is three things:

1. Shift shock
2. Interruption in power delivery
3. The engine falling in and out of the optimal RPM range for whatever you're trying to do

In other words, all bad things.


I do agree that they made the package less efficient. If efficiency is your only metric, then sure, they're all "bad".

Life isn't always so black-and-white. I like to hear the engine rev up "through the gears". I like to feel the engine as it climbs through its power curve. I like to listen to the change in tone as it steadily increases in speed. I like to be able to load the engine down in a gear and not have it flare up in speed if I know that the load is temporary (like climbing a short hill or momentarily increasing my speed).

Variable ratios are boring to me. They further isolate the driver from the actions, from the feel, of the powertrain. I don't want that isolation. I want to feel it work. I want to hear it work. I actually LIKE that about stepped transmissions. I don't have manual transmissions in our vehicles for a few reasons, but it doesn't mean that I want to miss that feeling, that sensation, of a good engine/transmission combo going about its business.

I fully know that variable ratios are more efficient. I fully know that variable ratios enable better performance. That doesn't matter to me. If getting that last 1/10th of an MPG or that last 1 MPH in the 1320 means having to put up with a limp-feeling powertrain all the time, then I don't want it.

I don't have a problem with the mechanicals of a CVT. I like simple. I like easy. As a CVT owner, I would want to have a "D" mode where it would do its thing just like any other CVT. If I'm shuttling co-workers to lunch, or if my wife is driving the car, or if I'm just in the mood for quiet and smooth, "D" works. But I also want an "M" mode with paddle shifters so that I can work it up and down "through the gears" if I want to hear and feel the powertrain work. CVTs don't hold the engine for engine braking down hills or for switching back and forth on twisty roads. Sometimes that's what I want to do. Some may not want that, and that's cool; "D" is for them. Including an "M" mode costs very little and adds a huge degree of flexibility while still using the same equipment.
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2009 Honda Ridgeline RTL
2005 Acura MDX Touring

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#3426398 - 07/16/14 11:04 AM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
stephen9666 Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 3069
Loc: USA
I suspect they're doing this because of customers who don't know anything about the transmission or what they bought.

I'm guessing Nissan is trying to avoid dealer warranty trips and bad surveys (J.D. Power, etc) from owners who say "it's not working right, it won't shift."

EDIT- I just read the article and it appears this is probably the main thing driving this update.

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#3426494 - 07/16/14 12:56 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 2035
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Bizarre. Employ a new technology just to defeat it.

About abnormal wear, I'd hope any self-respecting engineer would use some type of wear leveling logic in their pre-defined steps,ie alternating between say a 1.35 and a 1.28 (eg) 'virtual third gear' or whatever.
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#3426505 - 07/16/14 01:06 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 17168
Loc: Sunny Florida
C'mon guys. Shift shock? Whazzat? No modern automatic trans has any. Retarded timing and throttle reduction are precisely timed in many cars so you don't feel nuttin' unless you got your foot in it.

And the whole advantage of a slushbox, as well as the reason most of them are much quicker at the strip than their identical manual transmission variants, is there is NO interruption of the power delivery, none at all.

Moving cams has widened powerbands so far that many engines have a table flat torque curve, this pretty much means you are always in the 'optimal' rev range as well.

Next I am waiting to hear someone try again to tell us that CVT's have no wear in normal use!
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#3427026 - 07/16/14 10:12 PM Re: CVT with shift sensation [Re: wing0]
wing0 Offline


Registered: 10/08/12
Posts: 177
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I looked at some videos of cvt that goes through shifts. I noticed the rpm drops but not sure if it's a real or fake drop.

Does the transmission pause the movement of the belt for that split moment or it disconnect engine and transmission like a clutch?

Maybe these cvt 2.0 will require more frequent fluid changes?


Edited by wing0 (07/16/14 10:13 PM)

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