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#3424446 - 07/14/14 02:16 PM K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart
GumbyJarvis Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: Fort Hood, TX
Fun day in Texas.
Other than Fort Hood having no water, this is what I accomplished today



Before




After


Took <60 Minutes
Little noise increase, will update on MPGs in a few weeks
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#3424449 - 07/14/14 02:17 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
GumbyJarvis Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: Fort Hood, TX
excuse the dust btw, it will be cleaned soon enough.

Oh and I bought this off Autozone, Fireworks coupon went from 240 to 190$
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#3424456 - 07/14/14 02:21 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11379
Loc: North Carolina
The install looks pretty easy. I'd be interested in knowing the Intake Air Temperature (standard OBD-II data point) with the cone installed vs. without, if you have a scanner. It would also have required you to track that before installation, though, so...probably not, huh? smile

Enjoy your Dart.
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#3424463 - 07/14/14 02:24 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
surfstar Offline


Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
I'm still amazed that BITOGers will actually install a K&N and then even more amazed that they will admit it!

You will never see a MPG increase to recover that $190. Maybe if you wash the filter (which makes it filter worse again vs dirty) you will slowly recover that expense vs buying paper filters over hundreds of thousands of miles.

Also looks more likely to bring in warm/hot underhood air vs the OEM intake.

$190 for a noisemaker

laugh
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#3424467 - 07/14/14 02:26 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Drew99GT Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20736
Loc: Colorado Springs
It has a heat shield to isolate the filter from the engine, but the 200+ degree coolant overflow reservoir is within 2 inches of the filter. That can't be good for air intake temps!

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#3424473 - 07/14/14 02:30 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
GumbyJarvis Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: Fort Hood, TX
190$ for a name brand noise maker, Durrrr wink
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#3424480 - 07/14/14 02:37 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
satinsilver Offline


Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 2912
Loc: Ohio
I like the "before" pic better. smile

ps...there won't be any fuel savings.

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#3424492 - 07/14/14 02:47 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 1230
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Oh yes I would just love for more dirt to be sucked into my engine, just so it looks cool, can gain 40 more horsepower, can gain 20 extra mpg, empty my wallet more, and suck in hotter air
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#3424502 - 07/14/14 02:58 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1346
Loc: California
What happened to the hose that went from the air filter housing around the dip stick?

If you oil the filter media does the oil contaminate the air flow sensor down stream?

Is this care driven on the street or mainly an off road car?

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#3424557 - 07/14/14 03:55 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OneEyeJack]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6332
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack


If you oil the filter media does the oil contaminate the air flow sensor down stream?


No MAF sensor, its a speed-density system with a MAP sensor as are all Chrysler engines. So at least that's one way that a K&N can't hurt it...

But the inside of the intake manifold will get nasty from all the dirt that gets through the filter... it should be plenty obvious from the rest of the engine bay that while it may not be Tuscon, there still is enough dust in CenTex to warrant good air filtration.

In case you haven't guessed, I'm not a big fan of CAI kits and K&N air filters for street-driven cars. I used a K&N drop-in years ago, and while the engine lived to a ripe old age, the inside of the intake when I had it apart at one time convinced me to go back to a paper filter.
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#3424603 - 07/14/14 04:47 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OneEyeJack]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12536
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
What happened to the hose that went from the air filter housing around the dip stick?

If you oil the filter media does the oil contaminate the air flow sensor down stream?

Is this care driven on the street or mainly an off road car?



Virtually impossible to damage the sensor unless you install the filter when it is literally dripping wet with oil. Even then, the sensor can be cleaned easily.
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#3424616 - 07/14/14 04:58 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
OtisBlkR1 Offline


Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 2853
Loc: Indiana
looks cool dude, however in all honesty the others are telling you the truth.. you paid $190 for a noise maker.

I to was a believer.. however have since pulled all mine..


Edited by OtisBlkR1 (07/14/14 05:07 PM)
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#3424689 - 07/14/14 06:10 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
be sure to replace the k&n filter with an actual, working filter and you are good to go.

and I'm surprised how many people don't know that increasing intake temperatures increases MPGs, especially on lean burn engines like modern DI engines.


Edited by badtlc (07/14/14 06:12 PM)
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#3424705 - 07/14/14 06:21 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
hattaresguy Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 5124
Loc: CT
Meh I'd put it back to stock and spend the $190 on something else.

For a cheap few HP I'm sure their are chips available for that car.


Edited by hattaresguy (07/14/14 06:22 PM)

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#3424869 - 07/14/14 08:07 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Ram01 Offline


Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 613
Loc: New York Queens
Should of got the 2.4 tiger shark I understand needing the extra hp in the 2.0 I'm not mad at you

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#3424998 - 07/14/14 09:50 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
barkingspider Offline


Registered: 12/22/13
Posts: 370
Loc: socal
modding is fun & expensive. Cool pics. Good install. Thanks for sharing.
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#3425025 - 07/14/14 10:11 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7345
Loc: Saskatoon canada
I used to put a cai on everything,until I clued in a stock engine is matched to the intake so velocity can be maximized throughout the entire rpm range,instead of just at wife open throttle.
My c3 has a k&n intake and filter and of course a throttle body spacer. I can say truly,without a doubt my 99(with a 5.3) has more part throttle power and this truck pulls great when floored its a bit sluggish when light inputs are required.
I'm not trashing you though. Modding is fun,and expensive.
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#3425077 - 07/14/14 11:00 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1732
Loc: KY
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...
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#3425192 - 07/15/14 05:34 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: MCompact]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...


Times a million.

My car gets 10 of its hp from a factory modded air intake that is radically different from a regular 5.7 car. A 'snoot' will add virtually nothing but noise.

On my personal Silverado it was good for a full one mpg!


Edited by SteveSRT8 (07/15/14 05:34 AM)
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#3425215 - 07/15/14 06:41 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 1773
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: GumbyJarvis/
dust


This and a K and N filter doesn't go well together.
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#3425218 - 07/15/14 06:44 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OneEyeJack]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11379
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
What happened to the hose that went from the air filter housing around the dip stick?


It's connected to the metal intake pipe a few inches downstream of the filter.
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2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (QSUD 5W-30)
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#3425220 - 07/15/14 06:50 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: Clevy]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11379
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I used to put a cai on everything,until I clued in a stock engine is matched to the intake so velocity can be maximized throughout the entire rpm range,instead of just at wife open throttle.


Quoted for truth. I had a '97 Dakota with the 5.2L V-8 and found an AEM DryFlow intake kit locally on Craigslist for 40 bucks. I found that there was a low-to-part throttle torque "sag" just off idle. It picked back up after about 2,000 RPM. And it ran strong to redline, or at least to where the 44RE would upshift. I tweaked that, too, with the TV cable.

But I ended up putting the stock intake back on, and part-throttle driveability was restored to normal.

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Modding is fun,and expensive.


I agree completely. It's more fun to learn by doing rather than learn by reading. So what if the OP decides to put the stock system back in and sell his K&N kit for 100 bucks down the road? He spent 90 dollars to have some fun and learn about his car. To me, that's worth doing every time.
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2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (QSUD 5W-30)
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#3425226 - 07/15/14 07:09 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Mr_Incredible Offline


Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 1376
Loc: Nebraska
I've used K&N filters on several of my vehicles. The silicon readings in my UOAs showed no more than when I used paper filters. Of course, there's always the CHUNKs that don't get counted in a UOA (for anyone that would have brought that up.) Cleaned and reoiled properly, they are sufficient filters.

To see any increase of HP or MPGs you would have to have a vehicle that has an intake that really needs to be opened up. If you don't have one of those, no increase.

But you never, ever get back what you paid for it in any way. If you buy the cleaner and re-oil oil it will blow any savings you may have accumulated.

They are largely for the cool factor and little else.

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#3425471 - 07/15/14 12:26 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
GumbyJarvis Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: Fort Hood, TX
Saying K&N CAIs will destroy your engine is akin to saying "Frams fiber endcaps will destroy yer engine!!111!!1!1!"

Now look a few years later, the consensus on this has changed and more people are going fram versus *gasp* ripping media puros and motorcrafts.

just 20-25 years ago, 10w30 was the go to oil and anything else thinner "will destroy your engine! its like water!"

Then filter mags were debunked and according to some "if they slip, that's metal going everywhere!!"

Oh and cant forget "Once you go to synthetic you can never go back! and synthetic isn't a good break in oil!"

By these theories, someone running a K&N CAI, 0w20, and a OCOD w/ a filter mag after changing from factory fill synthetic to conventional. is a ticking timebomb that's car is going to die in 3000 miles.

which sadly some may still believe...


Ive used both K&N drop ins as well as Spectre drop ins, as well as both mfgrs cones, never had an issue.

My ranger has had a Spectre drop in since it was at 30K with no issues.... and its an oiled drop in.


Edited by GumbyJarvis (07/15/14 12:30 PM)
_________________________
2013 Dodge Dart SXT 2.0L. 17,490MI
PP 0w20 + TOUGH GUARD

22 Year Old that uses Brut, Brylcreem, and a safety razor..
just like your grandpa did!

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#3425480 - 07/15/14 12:35 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
GumbyJarvis Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 1352
Loc: Fort Hood, TX



cant forget when these were the "rage" and everyone upsold them.
_________________________
2013 Dodge Dart SXT 2.0L. 17,490MI
PP 0w20 + TOUGH GUARD

22 Year Old that uses Brut, Brylcreem, and a safety razor..
just like your grandpa did!

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#3425496 - 07/15/14 01:03 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
ls1mike Offline


Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 3098
Loc: Bremerton Wa
So for the guys who think it is a noise maker and makes no power...that might be the case...On your car. MPGs? I don't know don't care if I am modifing my car MPGs are obviously not my first priority.

Take a LS1 Camaro, Firebird or Corvette. Elimante the stock air box and use a Black Wing, CAI or what in the F-body world is referred to as a LID and you can see anywhere from 15 to 25 RWHP through the entire RPM range. That is Dyno proven time and time again.

Same goes with my Supercharged Grand Prix. Stop thinking one dimensional folks.

A little time on the Dyno might help some folks here or at least a day out there to see how a car reacts to certain things so you are not thinking about just your own car.
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#3425524 - 07/15/14 01:52 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
surfstar Offline


Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4378
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
It won't destroy your engine, but it won't help anything either.

And yes, CAI/intakes can help in some applications. A NA 2.0L is very unlikely to be one of them. $190 is an expensive noisemaker in this case. I would have preferred a muffler delete.
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#3425575 - 07/15/14 02:41 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: ls1mike]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Stop thinking one dimensional folks.

A little time on the Dyno might help some folks here or at least a day out there to see how a car reacts to certain things so you are not thinking about just your own car.


A great point, as the modding biz is wildly specific to the make, model, and tons of other details....
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#3425594 - 07/15/14 03:04 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 1230
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I don't think it's gonna kill the car really soon or blow the motor. It certainly isn't helping it though.
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#3425609 - 07/15/14 03:13 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: GumbyJarvis



cant forget when these were the "rage" and everyone upsold them.


The 4-electrode plugs (albeit, Bosch) are factory equipment on many European cars due to their extended lifespan FYI.
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#3426237 - 07/16/14 07:22 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
There's nothing wrong with using K&N filters...worst case scenario you'll get no gain...they aren't going to lose any power, and you aren't going to noticed any difference in filtering abilities compared to paper elements in terms of engine life...the exaggerated claims of lousy filtering are just that...

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#3426245 - 07/16/14 07:35 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
There's nothing wrong with using K&N filters...worst case scenario you'll get no gain...they aren't going to lose any power, and you aren't going to noticed any difference in filtering abilities compared to paper elements in terms of engine life...the exaggerated claims of lousy filtering are just that...


They aren't "claims." K&N filters are lousy filters compared to just about everything else. That has been proven in ISO tests over and over. Whether or not the lousy filtration will affect engine life, or the extent to which it does affect engine life is up for debate. No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.
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#3426269 - 07/16/14 07:57 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


Edited by grampi (07/16/14 08:03 AM)

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#3426327 - 07/16/14 09:22 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


You don't see the difference in filtration and engine life? Seriously? You are just trolling now.

In case you are just that ignorant, terrible is a relative term and K&N filters are terrible in comparison. Letting in 400-500% more dust/dirt is terrible. You can use your own words but my word for that is terrible.


Edited by badtlc (07/16/14 09:26 AM)
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#3426335 - 07/16/14 09:30 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.
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#3426353 - 07/16/14 10:19 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


You don't see the difference in filtration and engine life? Seriously? You are just trolling now.

In case you are just that ignorant, terrible is a relative term and K&N filters are terrible in comparison. Letting in 400-500% more dust/dirt is terrible. You can use your own words but my word for that is terrible.


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...

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#3426354 - 07/16/14 10:21 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OVERKILL]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...

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#3426357 - 07/16/14 10:23 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...


Here's Richard's (widman) thread with some pics:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131630
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#3426385 - 07/16/14 10:54 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: SteveSRT8]
meep Offline


Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 2496
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...


Times a million.

My car gets 10 of its hp from a factory modded air intake that is radically different from a regular 5.7 car. A 'snoot' will add virtually nothing but noise.

On my personal Silverado it was good for a full one mpg!


Steve--- the 1mpg on your silverado -- I assume this is from a modded factory box? do tell-- I'd be interested!

on topic--

I've done a K&N cone years ago and did end up with a very fine powder, after many thousands of miles, on the intake tract. I never had problems with MAF fouling.

I saw a dirt bike with K&N start in the morning, run all day in the dust, and have inadequate compression to start (verified by gauge) at the end of the day. had to be bored, honed, and re-piston/ringed. I loved the sound of the K&N cone in the vehicle it was in, and the throttle response was "snappier" but no gains in performance or mpg. I have had more success with insulating factory intakes and modding the airbox in cases where they'd breathe warm engine air instead of grill air.

I commend the OP for wrenching on his own ride! Even if this mod doesn't live up to the hype---- ALL of us at some point or another did a mod that didn't work out great - it's how we learn.

-M
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#3426386 - 07/16/14 10:54 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OVERKILL]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...


Here's Richard's (widman) thread with some pics:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131630


I went to their website and unfortunately they don't have a vehicle application guide...

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#3426513 - 07/16/14 01:19 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.
_________________________
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#3426522 - 07/16/14 01:29 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.


Neither do you...

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#3426529 - 07/16/14 01:33 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26355
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi


I went to their website and unfortunately they don't have a vehicle application guide...


Correct, you have to look at the size of the filter and figure out what would fit in the space required. Their primary market is HD Diesel trucks, earth moving equipment....etc.
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#3426547 - 07/16/14 01:46 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: meep]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: meep
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...


Times a million.

My car gets 10 of its hp from a factory modded air intake that is radically different from a regular 5.7 car. A 'snoot' will add virtually nothing but noise.

On my personal Silverado it was good for a full one mpg!


Steve--- the 1mpg on your silverado -- I assume this is from a modded factory box? do tell-- I'd be interested!

on topic--

I've done a K&N cone years ago and did end up with a very fine powder, after many thousands of miles, on the intake tract. I never had problems with MAF fouling.

I saw a dirt bike with K&N start in the morning, run all day in the dust, and have inadequate compression to start (verified by gauge) at the end of the day. had to be bored, honed, and re-piston/ringed. I loved the sound of the K&N cone in the vehicle it was in, and the throttle response was "snappier" but no gains in performance or mpg. I have had more success with insulating factory intakes and modding the airbox in cases where they'd breathe warm engine air instead of grill air.

I commend the OP for wrenching on his own ride! Even if this mod doesn't live up to the hype---- ALL of us at some point or another did a mod that didn't work out great - it's how we learn.

-M


Agreed with all points.

As for the Silverado, this is my personal truck out of my fleet. It is an 05 with the 5.3.

I purchased an AFE cold air intake for it and got an honest 1 mpg across the board with no other changes of any kind. The truck is as stock and original as can be otherwise. 135k miles and still running strong...
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#3426568 - 07/16/14 02:12 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.


Neither do you...


Such as?
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#3426601 - 07/16/14 02:49 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.


Neither do you...


Such as?


I said prove that K&N filters cause premature engine wear or go away...you have done neither...

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#3426612 - 07/16/14 02:58 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi

I said prove that K&N filters cause premature engine wear or go away...you have done neither...


Why would I do that when I clearly said there has been nothing to show K&N filters lead to shorter engine life? Again, you clearly cannot read very well.
_________________________
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#3426616 - 07/16/14 03:02 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi

I said prove that K&N filters cause premature engine wear or go away...you have done neither...


Why would I do that when I clearly said there has been nothing to show K&N filters lead to shorter engine life? Again, you clearly cannot read very well.


Then why are you saying they're lousy filters? If they actually were lousy, then showing evidence of excessive engine wear would be easy...

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#3426899 - 07/16/14 08:17 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi

I said prove that K&N filters cause premature engine wear or go away...you have done neither...


Why would I do that when I clearly said there has been nothing to show K&N filters lead to shorter engine life? Again, you clearly cannot read very well.


Then why are you saying they're lousy filters? If they actually were lousy, then showing evidence of excessive engine wear would be easy...


Because there isn't a worse filter out there when it comes to...you know...filtering air entering the engine. Being the worst makes it terrible. Not sure why this is so confusing for you.
_________________________
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#3426938 - 07/16/14 08:50 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 1230
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi

I said prove that K&N filters cause premature engine wear or go away...you have done neither...


Why would I do that when I clearly said there has been nothing to show K&N filters lead to shorter engine life? Again, you clearly cannot read very well.


Then why are you saying they're lousy filters? If they actually were lousy, then showing evidence of excessive engine wear would be easy...


Because there isn't a worse filter out there when it comes to...you know...filtering air entering the engine. Being the worst makes it terrible. Not sure why this is so confusing for you.

Here's someone's study on K&N and other filters

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=11674
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#3427206 - 07/17/14 07:37 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11379
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Because there isn't a worse filter out there when it comes to...you know...filtering air entering the engine. Being the worst makes it terrible. Not sure why this is so confusing for you.


I think grampi's point is, if engine life isn't effectively worsened, then how much does it really matter? Say Person A uses the best filter out there and gets 300k miles out of his engine. And say Person B uses the worst filter out there and gets 300k miles out of his engine. In the end, what's the difference?

You want the best filter, right, to keep the most dirt out of the engine, right, so the engine will last longer, right? The very last factor is key..."so the engine will last longer". We use air filters to keep dirt out of the engine....and the ONLY reason is to extend the life of the engine. There's no national contest out there for those whose cylinder walls have the fewest scratches. Sure, you can measure dirt that a filter passes, and it might make you feel better to know that Filter A traps more than Filter B, but it's an argument of conjecture until someone can demonstrate that engine life is affected.

I suppose one can draw a parallel with engine oil here. An oil's main purpose in life is to lubricate the engine right? So why not buy the oil that does that the absolute best. You're using conventional Valvoline. A lot of other oils out there pass much higher performance standards. Why do you use Valvoline? Because it's sufficient, right? It's sufficient for the task.

And there's a direct parallel with oil filters. Some people believe that the only filter that belongs on a car is one with 99.9% efficiency at so many microns. And they're free to use those. Meanwhile, Honda and Toyota are using oil filters that are 60% efficient and, yet, their engines last just as long, if not longer, than anyone else's. The 60% efficient oil filters are sufficient for the task.

It could just be that K&N filters are sufficient for the task. Until there's a lot of evidence to the contrary, I'm afraid all discussion is only conjecture.
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2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (QSUD 5W-30)
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#3427249 - 07/17/14 08:23 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: Hokiefyd]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Because there isn't a worse filter out there when it comes to...you know...filtering air entering the engine. Being the worst makes it terrible. Not sure why this is so confusing for you.


It could just be that K&N filters are sufficient for the task. Until there's a lot of evidence to the contrary, I'm afraid all discussion is only conjecture.


You apparently missed the two previous posts of mine where I made that quite clear. There is little hard evidence showing K&N reduces engine life by a significant amount.

On the other hand, it is logical to assume dirt in your eninge isn't a good thing for engine life.
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#3427311 - 07/17/14 09:28 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
It sounds like SAE does have some studies showing poor filtration increases engine wear.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=490768
_________________________
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#3427333 - 07/17/14 09:58 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11379
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: badtlc
You apparently missed the two previous posts of mine where I made that quite clear. There is little hard evidence showing K&N reduces engine life by a significant amount.


I didn't miss them. I think there's simply a difference in perspective among us. A filter that doesn't filter as well as another makes it a poorer filter. It doesn't necessarily make it a poor choice for use on a vehicle.

I'll bet there are tires out there that perform better than the ones on your car. That doesn't make your tires terrible. There are probably shoes that are more comfortable than the ones you're wearing. That doesn't make your shoes terrible. There's lunch that's likely more tasty than the one you'll have today. That doesn't make your lunch terrible. There are tradeoffs in everything. A theoretical loss in filtration of a performance filter might not affect the OP's engine life at all, and he gained a better knowledge of how his car works and probably a better appreciation for the way his engine bay was designed and packaged by installing the filter kit.
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2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (QSUD 5W-30)
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#3427376 - 07/17/14 10:35 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: Hokiefyd]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: badtlc
You apparently missed the two previous posts of mine where I made that quite clear. There is little hard evidence showing K&N reduces engine life by a significant amount.


I didn't miss them. I think there's simply a difference in perspective among us. A filter that doesn't filter as well as another makes it a poorer filter. It doesn't necessarily make it a poor choice for use on a vehicle.

I'll bet there are tires out there that perform better than the ones on your car. That doesn't make your tires terrible. There are probably shoes that are more comfortable than the ones you're wearing. That doesn't make your shoes terrible. There's lunch that's likely more tasty than the one you'll have today. That doesn't make your lunch terrible. There are tradeoffs in everything. A theoretical loss in filtration of a performance filter might not affect the OP's engine life at all, and he gained a better knowledge of how his car works and probably a better appreciation for the way his engine bay was designed and packaged by installing the filter kit.


If they are the worst at doing their intended job, then they are terrible. Terrible is a relative term.
_________________________
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#3427518 - 07/17/14 12:36 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: Hokiefyd]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: badtlc
You apparently missed the two previous posts of mine where I made that quite clear. There is little hard evidence showing K&N reduces engine life by a significant amount.


I didn't miss them. I think there's simply a difference in perspective among us. A filter that doesn't filter as well as another makes it a poorer filter. It doesn't necessarily make it a poor choice for use on a vehicle.

I'll bet there are tires out there that perform better than the ones on your car. That doesn't make your tires terrible. There are probably shoes that are more comfortable than the ones you're wearing. That doesn't make your shoes terrible. There's lunch that's likely more tasty than the one you'll have today. That doesn't make your lunch terrible. There are tradeoffs in everything. A theoretical loss in filtration of a performance filter might not affect the OP's engine life at all, and he gained a better knowledge of how his car works and probably a better appreciation for the way his engine bay was designed and packaged by installing the filter kit.


You're wasting your time...it's obvious badtlc would rather argue about semantics than discuss facts...


Edited by grampi (07/17/14 12:37 PM)

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#3427549 - 07/17/14 01:07 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3762
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi

You're wasting your time...it's obvious badtlc would rather argue about semantics than discuss facts...


You have yet to realize I agree with you. That is the best part.
_________________________
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#3427657 - 07/17/14 03:08 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 3588
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi

You're wasting your time...it's obvious badtlc would rather argue about semantics than discuss facts...


You have yet to realize I agree with you. That is the best part.


So you say, but you continue to argue...me thinks you just like to argue...

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#3428140 - 07/18/14 05:01 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi

You're wasting your time...it's obvious badtlc would rather argue about semantics than discuss facts...


You have yet to realize I agree with you. That is the best part.


So you say, but you continue to argue...me thinks you just like to argue...


I believe an argument requires two folks...
_________________________
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J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3429080 - 07/19/14 07:35 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
eddy21 Offline


Registered: 01/11/08
Posts: 83
Loc: FL
Here's one for the horsepower argument.

http://forums.focaljet.com/ti-vct-tuning...phs-inside.html
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#3429087 - 07/19/14 07:46 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: eddy21]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15093
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: eddy21
Here's one for the horsepower argument.

http://forums.focaljet.com/ti-vct-tuning...phs-inside.html


yep, those were excellent results, that particular platform must have a heavily silenced intake tract.

But it just proves my point that some cars benefit and some don't at all...
_________________________
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J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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Just like we go to Publix

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#3432919 - 07/23/14 01:10 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1346
Loc: California

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#3433132 - 07/23/14 09:42 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OneEyeJack]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1732
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack


No one in this topic has stated that an aftermarket filter/intake will increase horsepower on every car. It depends on the individual vehicle and the design priorities of the OEM intake and filter.
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#3433176 - 07/23/14 10:33 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: MCompact]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1346
Loc: California
I must have misread the marketing material on several of these types of filters. They claimed a performance increase. It appears that these filters setups are for looks and noise. They also have an application where one puts say a turbo on an engine ans is running out of room. For a daily driver I don't get it.

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#3433809 - 07/23/14 08:47 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OneEyeJack]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1732
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I must have misread the marketing material on several of these types of filters. They claimed a performance increase. It appears that these filters setups are for looks and noise. They also have an application where one puts say a turbo on an engine ans is running out of room. For a daily driver I don't get it.


Agreed; I paid $315 for my Mazdaspeed cold air intake and I only picked up 24 bhp and shaved just 0.61 seconds of my 3rd gear 30mph-70mph acceleration time.

What a rip-off... shrug
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#3434247 - 07/24/14 10:30 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
ls1mike Offline


Registered: 06/14/08
Posts: 3098
Loc: Bremerton Wa
Again, minus the filter, which is a seperate issue. Every car responds differently to a CAI or removal or the stock air box. The only way to prove it is put the car on the Dyno.
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#3434537 - 07/24/14 04:35 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: ls1mike]
MCompact Offline


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1732
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Again, minus the filter, which is a seperate issue. Every car responds differently to a CAI or removal or the stock air box. The only way to prove it is put the car on the Dyno.


Agreed; I was responding to those who simply parrot second-hand opinions- i.e., "CAIs never increase horsepower." or "Install a CAI and you'll always pick up 40-50 bhp."
_________________________
2009 328i
2004 X3 2.5
1995 318ti Club Sport
1975 2002A
2007 Mazdaspeed3
1999 Wrangler Sahara
1996 Speed Triple

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#3435156 - 07/25/14 10:02 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
Mykl Offline


Registered: 02/08/13
Posts: 1262
Loc: Texas
Heck, I'd spend a couple hundred just for the noise. Intake noise from a nice inline engine is a wonderful thing.

I'd change out the intake on the GTI, but as it turns out they generally don't make a huge difference. I'm guessing the turbo muffles things a bit.
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