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#3426237 - 07/16/14 07:22 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: GumbyJarvis]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
There's nothing wrong with using K&N filters...worst case scenario you'll get no gain...they aren't going to lose any power, and you aren't going to noticed any difference in filtering abilities compared to paper elements in terms of engine life...the exaggerated claims of lousy filtering are just that...

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#3426245 - 07/16/14 07:35 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4535
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
There's nothing wrong with using K&N filters...worst case scenario you'll get no gain...they aren't going to lose any power, and you aren't going to noticed any difference in filtering abilities compared to paper elements in terms of engine life...the exaggerated claims of lousy filtering are just that...


They aren't "claims." K&N filters are lousy filters compared to just about everything else. That has been proven in ISO tests over and over. Whether or not the lousy filtration will affect engine life, or the extent to which it does affect engine life is up for debate. No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX, ARX/Trop Artic 5W30, MC Fl910s, 125k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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#3426269 - 07/16/14 07:57 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


Edited by grampi (07/16/14 08:03 AM)

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#3426327 - 07/16/14 09:22 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4535
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


You don't see the difference in filtration and engine life? Seriously? You are just trolling now.

In case you are just that ignorant, terrible is a relative term and K&N filters are terrible in comparison. Letting in 400-500% more dust/dirt is terrible. You can use your own words but my word for that is terrible.


Edited by badtlc (07/16/14 09:26 AM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX, ARX/Trop Artic 5W30, MC Fl910s, 125k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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#3426335 - 07/16/14 09:30 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 29336
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.
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#3426353 - 07/16/14 10:19 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
[quote=grampi]No proof they will significantly shorten an engine life that I have seen but it is not deniable they are terrible filters.


So which is it, your sentence contradicts itself? Saying a filter that doesn't filter quite as well as a paper element is terrible is an exaggeration...K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...that doesn't sound like a terrible filter to me...you're also exaggerating about how bad they're filtering abilities are...I've seen the tests...yes the paper elements filter better, but what the K&Ns let through is negligible...I've yet to see it proven that engine wear is higher on K&N filtered engines so your claims of them being lousy filters is also an exaggeration......


You don't see the difference in filtration and engine life? Seriously? You are just trolling now.

In case you are just that ignorant, terrible is a relative term and K&N filters are terrible in comparison. Letting in 400-500% more dust/dirt is terrible. You can use your own words but my word for that is terrible.


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...

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#3426354 - 07/16/14 10:21 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OVERKILL]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...

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#3426357 - 07/16/14 10:23 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 29336
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...


Here's Richard's (widman) thread with some pics:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131630
_________________________
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02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
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#3426385 - 07/16/14 10:54 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: SteveSRT8]
meep Offline


Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 2704
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...


Times a million.

My car gets 10 of its hp from a factory modded air intake that is radically different from a regular 5.7 car. A 'snoot' will add virtually nothing but noise.

On my personal Silverado it was good for a full one mpg!


Steve--- the 1mpg on your silverado -- I assume this is from a modded factory box? do tell-- I'd be interested!

on topic--

I've done a K&N cone years ago and did end up with a very fine powder, after many thousands of miles, on the intake tract. I never had problems with MAF fouling.

I saw a dirt bike with K&N start in the morning, run all day in the dust, and have inadequate compression to start (verified by gauge) at the end of the day. had to be bored, honed, and re-piston/ringed. I loved the sound of the K&N cone in the vehicle it was in, and the throttle response was "snappier" but no gains in performance or mpg. I have had more success with insulating factory intakes and modding the airbox in cases where they'd breathe warm engine air instead of grill air.

I commend the OP for wrenching on his own ride! Even if this mod doesn't live up to the hype---- ALL of us at some point or another did a mod that didn't work out great - it's how we learn.

-M
_________________________
2006 Tundra 2wd
2002 MDX (wifey!)
2003 town and country, in various state of repair

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#3426386 - 07/16/14 10:54 AM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: OVERKILL]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: grampi
K&Ns are a compromise filter...they allow ever so slightly more to get into your engine, but at a much higher flow rate, and they never need to be replaced...


OK, but why choose to do something like that when you could just fit a paper filter with more media and retain stock filtration performance and increased air flow?

OR

Install something like a Donaldson PowerCore which flows more than stock OR the K&N, filters better than both of them, and is also basically a lifetime filter, particularly in an automotive application.

shrug

Widman posted some pics a while back of PowerCore retrofits on some vehicles and I was really impressed with his thought process. They are arguably the best air filter out there, the issue seems to be they lack the "bling" of a gauze filter/CAI setup. And of course they are pretty large. But then so are many of the big cone/heat shield combo's that get installed.


The Donaldsons sound like a good alternative to K&Ns...just never heard of them...I will look into them...


Here's Richard's (widman) thread with some pics:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2131630


I went to their website and unfortunately they don't have a vehicle application guide...

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#3426513 - 07/16/14 01:19 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4535
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX, ARX/Trop Artic 5W30, MC Fl910s, 125k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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#3426522 - 07/16/14 01:29 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: badtlc]
grampi Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 4560
Loc: OH
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.


Neither do you...

Top
#3426529 - 07/16/14 01:33 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 29336
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: grampi


I went to their website and unfortunately they don't have a vehicle application guide...


Correct, you have to look at the size of the filter and figure out what would fit in the space required. Their primary market is HD Diesel trucks, earth moving equipment....etc.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

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#3426547 - 07/16/14 01:46 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: meep]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 16566
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: meep
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: MCompact
The effectiveness of a CAI depends on the individual vehicle; I picked up @24 bhp when I installed a Mazdaspeed CAI on my MS3; the 30-70 mph 3rd gear times dropped by 0.61 seconds. In contrast, a CAI makes absolutely no difference on my 1995 3er; I was lucky to pick up 12 bhp with a Turner/Conforti chip...


Times a million.

My car gets 10 of its hp from a factory modded air intake that is radically different from a regular 5.7 car. A 'snoot' will add virtually nothing but noise.

On my personal Silverado it was good for a full one mpg!


Steve--- the 1mpg on your silverado -- I assume this is from a modded factory box? do tell-- I'd be interested!

on topic--

I've done a K&N cone years ago and did end up with a very fine powder, after many thousands of miles, on the intake tract. I never had problems with MAF fouling.

I saw a dirt bike with K&N start in the morning, run all day in the dust, and have inadequate compression to start (verified by gauge) at the end of the day. had to be bored, honed, and re-piston/ringed. I loved the sound of the K&N cone in the vehicle it was in, and the throttle response was "snappier" but no gains in performance or mpg. I have had more success with insulating factory intakes and modding the airbox in cases where they'd breathe warm engine air instead of grill air.

I commend the OP for wrenching on his own ride! Even if this mod doesn't live up to the hype---- ALL of us at some point or another did a mod that didn't work out great - it's how we learn.

-M


Agreed with all points.

As for the Silverado, this is my personal truck out of my fleet. It is an 05 with the 5.3.

I purchased an AFE cold air intake for it and got an honest 1 mpg across the board with no other changes of any kind. The truck is as stock and original as can be otherwise. 135k miles and still running strong...
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#3426568 - 07/16/14 02:12 PM Re: K&N Cool Air intake, '13 2.0L Dart [Re: grampi]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4535
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: grampi


Like I said, prove that K&Ns contribute to premature engine wear, otherwise, go away...if they are as bad as you claim then it should be an easy task...


You obviously don't read very well.


Neither do you...


Such as?
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX, ARX/Trop Artic 5W30, MC Fl910s, 125k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv M1 AFE 0W20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 40k+

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