Will we mourn the passing of real automatic trans?

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I am waiting for some auto/pickup OEM to do what the commercial truck sector has done.... automated manual transmissions. A manual transmission that is shifted by computer. No clutch pedal. Clutch engaged and disengaged by computer.


Been around for quite a while. Available in some very high HP cars as well. Versatile and efficient.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Honda kind of does automated manual.

I had an awkward experience driving a ford DCT. I understand that it was a manual transmission, and I probably would have ended up doing the same thing had it been a manual.

Was creeping along in the grass / gravel parking lot. It kept, literally, dumping the clutch then disengaging to try to keep the crawl speed. Guess that's better for clutch life.

 

[artificialist]

I chose my car because one of the rules I set was:
Having a transmission that can be shifted automatically, and not use a torque converter.

The only time I am going to mourn the loss of old fashioned automatics is if the durability of newer transmissions is not as good, and if rebuilding them is much more expensive than in the past.

 

[kmcavin]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
If CVTs can be made durable enough to last 200K+ mi, without being totally numb, I could live with them, but yes, I would miss a transmission that shifts.

Add in reliability concerns, and a total lack of CVTs in any application that is remotely heavy duty/intended to work, and they just loose all appeal to me.


You are extremely unlikely to ever see them in any high torque application. Towing much, high power, none of these types of apps work with CVT as they cannot hold torque, quickly slip and die...


Are you sure about that?
http://www.caseih.com/en_us/pressroom/news/pages/2011-08-29_case_ih_magnum_370_cvt.aspx

 

[MotorsportsX]

im not a fan of any CVT ive ever driven.. they just seem sluggish and weak. then again, ive never driven a car that had serious horsepower with one, as most of them come in underpowered commuter cars.

that said, im just waiting for GM to put the new 8 speed and control module in the performance catalog

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: kmcavin
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
If CVTs can be made durable enough to last 200K+ mi, without being totally numb, I could live with them, but yes, I would miss a transmission that shifts.

Add in reliability concerns, and a total lack of CVTs in any application that is remotely heavy duty/intended to work, and they just loose all appeal to me.


You are extremely unlikely to ever see them in any high torque application. Towing much, high power, none of these types of apps work with CVT as they cannot hold torque, quickly slip and die...


Are you sure about that?
http://www.caseih.com/en_us/pressroom/news/pages/2011-08-29_case_ih_magnum_370_cvt.aspx


Please give yourself a moment of thought on this.

Heavy duty off road equipment with a VERY low top speed. Now factor in the immense multiplication of those 4 gear ranges. There are more than a few differences between this drivetrain and an automobile's. It is hydraulic with planetary gears, not even close and extremely unlikely to EVER be used in any car!

Not quite like a Jatco in a Nissan, eh? But a real neat tractor!

 

[kmcavin]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: kmcavin
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
If CVTs can be made durable enough to last 200K+ mi, without being totally numb, I could live with them, but yes, I would miss a transmission that shifts.

Add in reliability concerns, and a total lack of CVTs in any application that is remotely heavy duty/intended to work, and they just loose all appeal to me.


You are extremely unlikely to ever see them in any high torque application. Towing much, high power, none of these types of apps work with CVT as they cannot hold torque, quickly slip and die...


Are you sure about that?
http://www.caseih.com/en_us/pressroom/news/pages/2011-08-29_case_ih_magnum_370_cvt.aspx


Please give yourself a moment of thought on this.

Heavy duty off road equipment with a VERY low top speed. Now factor in the immense multiplication of those 4 gear ranges. There are more than a few differences between this drivetrain and an automobile's. It is hydraulic with planetary gears, not even close and extremely unlikely to EVER be used in any car!

Not quite like a Jatco in a Nissan, eh? But a real neat tractor!


I never said it was going to be used in a car. I was pointing out the flaw in the statements "a total lack of CVTs in any application that is remotely heavy duty/intended to work" and "You are extremely unlikely to ever see them in any high torque application". While they are not the same animal as what's found in today's cars, it is a CVT and the technology is there. There is a possibility of redesigning it into applications such as delivery trucks and the like.

It is a cool tractor. A friend of mine back home has one. It took about two minutes to learn how to operate it and it keeps constant speed. One less thing to worry about since they have GPS and a computer to pay attention to while in the field.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: kmcavin
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
If CVTs can be made durable enough to last 200K+ mi, without being totally numb, I could live with them, but yes, I would miss a transmission that shifts.

Add in reliability concerns, and a total lack of CVTs in any application that is remotely heavy duty/intended to work, and they just loose all appeal to me.


You are extremely unlikely to ever see them in any high torque application. Towing much, high power, none of these types of apps work with CVT as they cannot hold torque, quickly slip and die...


Are you sure about that?
http://www.caseih.com/en_us/pressroom/news/pages/2011-08-29_case_ih_magnum_370_cvt.aspx


I'd venture a guess that the Case-HI CVT is not a VanDoorne push belt transmission like those found in passenger cars. It's probably something more like a Toro Trak transmission.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

DCTs are really heavy. Aren't CVTs about the same weight as MTs?


Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.

Why ridiculous?

It certainly seems ridiculous on its face, but automatic transmissions with higher gear counts tend to shift faster and with less shift shock.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.


Allison introduced last year a 10 speed torque converter automatic for the line haul commercial truck sector. The TC-10 TS transmission. Looks very promising. They have been doing automatics for commercial trucks, but not really cracking the OTR segment. The TC-10 is targeted squarely at the OTR trucking sector. Would sure like to test one for a few runs and see how it does.

I have really liked the 6 speed auto with manual select shift ability in my Silverado. I would love to have 8 speeds in that setup.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: kmcavin

I never said it was going to be used in a car.


Your exactly correct!

And you may wish to note we were NOT talking about tractors! You can just insert the word "car" wherever you need to...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.


I agree on the gear count. Do some of these smaller engines have the necessary torque to avoid constant up and downshift with all these gears?

 

[SteveSRT8]

The engineers are all talking ratio spread. That's why that darn ZF 8 speed is appearing in everything from 4 cylinder BMW's to high horsepower Bentleys and Jags.

The wide spread allows for great performance and great economy, too.

Note that the ZF varies wildly from model to model in how it performs, this is a function of programming, not trans design...

 

[kmcavin]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman

I'd venture a guess that the Case-HI CVT is not a VanDoorne push belt transmission like those found in passenger cars. It's probably something more like a Toro Trak transmission.


No, it seems to be a little different and then it has the extra planetary gears for PTO and auxiliary pumps.

About 50 seconds in it starts showing cut aways of the transmission Case IH CVT

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.


I agree on the gear count. Do some of these smaller engines have the necessary torque to avoid constant up and downshift with all these gears?


Probably not. But does it matter? If you don't need to downshift when you hit a hill, then you are probably wasting gas on the flats -- the engine could be turning slower on the flat sections. Thus saving gas.

Yeah, I don't care for downshifts on hills either. Much less if it was hunting up/down on seemingly flat sections. But if it didn't need to downshift then odds are the engine is either oversized or otherwise turning faster than it needs to be.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I look at it the other way... MTs are more efficient from a losses perspective, why wouldn't DCTs become the norm?



I agree. I think DCT's are more likely to take over the automotive landscape than CVT's.

DCTs are really heavy. Aren't CVTs about the same weight as MTs?


Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The gear count race in modern automatics is getting a little ridiculous. I've heard of 10-speed transmission projects out there in the future automotive landscape. There is a significant performance benefit in going from a 6 speed to an 8 speed. Don't know about 10 speeds.

Why ridiculous?

It certainly seems ridiculous on its face, but automatic transmissions with higher gear counts tend to shift faster and with less shift shock.


I applied the word ridiculous thinking about a Car and Driver review I read about the new Jeep with the 9-speed automatic. They said during the whole time they drove it, they either weren't sure or never saw it get into 9th gear. It seems there is a risk of putting smaller and smaller engines into larger and heavier vehicles to the point of not being able to get into top gear unless you're drafting a semi going downhill with a tailwind. Why don't they just put a cannon on the car so you can harpoon a semi and have it pull you down the road for free?