New tires to the rear for safety

[Astro14]

OK, Nick...

Is your point that the asphalt on tracks is substantially different than the asphalt on roads?

Do you think that test tracks built to replicate road conditions are built differently, using different materials, than roads?

In many ways, roads are worse. The test track doesn't have the oil/fuel in the surface that ordinary roads collect from the jalopies driven on them...and the test track doesn't have the settling of surfaces that leads to puddling. The tracks are built for uniform surface and depth so that tests are measurable and repeatable.

That means that regular roads are even more slick, and more prone to puddling, and more unpredictable than the tire testing tracks...

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
OK, Nick...

Is your point that the asphalt on tracks is substantially different than the asphalt on roads?

Do you think that test tracks built to replicate road conditions are built differently, using different materials, than roads?

In many ways, roads are worse. The test track doesn't have the oil/fuel in the surface that ordinary roads collect from the jalopies driven on them...and the test track doesn't have the settling of surfaces that leads to puddling. The tracks are built for uniform surface and depth so that tests are measurable and repeatable.

That means that regular roads are even more slick, and more prone to puddling, and more unpredictable than the tire testing tracks...


This is what standard roads look like, at least around here.

This is what the ground looks like to me in those test track videos (go rewatch them)

 

[Astro14]

So, you would base your analysis on where to mount tires, not on the basis of test results, but on the basis of what test tracks "look" like in low resolution videos...

And, based on that rigorous criteria, you would ignore the data derived from extensive testing by manufacturers as well as independent testing by Tire Rack?

Not all streets are asphalt, not all test tracks are concrete slab. I drive on both, and even in Arizona, so do you. Regardless of surface composition, you're more at risk in Arizona for unpredictable roads due to contamination because of your infrequent rain.

Those test tracks in that one set of video look like asphalt to me, but the surface quality is changed by the reflection of light on the water. I can't tell anything about the test track surface from the low-res video, but I can sure see the results of different tread depth on front and rear tires.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
So, you would base your analysis on where to mount tires, not on the basis of test results, but on the basis of what test tracks "look" like in low resolution videos...

And, based on that rigorous criteria, you would ignore the data derived from extensive testing by manufacturers as well as independent testing by Tire Rack?

Not all streets are asphalt, not all test tracks are concrete slab. I drive on both, and even in Arizona, so do you. Regardless of surface composition, you're more at risk in Arizona for unpredictable roads due to contamination because of your infrequent rain.

Those test tracks in that one set of video look like asphalt to me, but the surface quality is changed by the reflection of light on the water. I can't tell anything about the test track surface from the low-res video, but I can sure see the results of different tread depth on front and rear tires.


Not a single cement road here, the only cement surfaces are driveways, sidewalks, and gas stations.

I wish they'd show the used tires in the videos. How do we know they aren't pretty much total slicks?

 

[chrisri]

quote:

New tires on the rear is the industry standard.

I will not go into argument again but this is NOT the case in Europe. I see also you drive different tyres on same axle. That is illegal here and car that runs them isn't roadworthy.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
quote:

New tires on the rear is the industry standard.

I will not go into argument again but this is NOT the case in Europe.

Sure it is. The shops in Europe may just not be very strict about enforcing it, so it's more of a recommendation rather than law...

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

Quote:
FOR COMPLETE CONTROL, FIT YOUR NEW TYRES TO THE REAR AXLE
Rear wheels are not connected to your steering wheel, which makes it extremely difficult to judge their grip while driving. We recommend that new tyres or the least worn tyres are fitted to the rear wheels to ensure:

- Better control in emergency braking or tight corners when the roads are slippery.
- Less risk of losing control of your vehicle, especially on wet surfaces
- Better road holding, particularly in difficult situations, whether your car is front or rear wheel drive

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
quote:

New tires on the rear is the industry standard.

I will not go into argument again but this is NOT the case in Europe.

Sure it is. The shops in Europe may just not be very strict about enforcing it, so it's more of a recommendation rather than law...

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/care-guide/ten-tyre-care-tips

Quote:
FOR COMPLETE CONTROL, FIT YOUR NEW TYRES TO THE REAR AXLE
Rear wheels are not connected to your steering wheel, which makes it extremely difficult to judge their grip while driving. We recommend that new tyres or the least worn tyres are fitted to the rear wheels to ensure:

- Better control in emergency braking or tight corners when the roads are slippery.
- Less risk of losing control of your vehicle, especially on wet surfaces
- Better road holding, particularly in difficult situations, whether your car is front or rear wheel drive




It isn't law here either. I bought 2 tires a few months apart when I had my truck and after some persuading I finally got Discount Tire to put them on the front. I told them if not I'd just go home and do it myself.

 

[Mr Nice]

Front tires steer and have most braking power.

I like new tires up front.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Front tires steer and have most braking power.

But it does you little good when your rear is coming around.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
It isn't law here either.

Right, more like corporate law that some shops take more seriously than others.

 

[Nayov]

Our policy is new on rear for the obvious safety reason. We send them packing if they throw a fit, but virtually everyone agrees that the policy makes sense.

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm gonna tell you guys why I think they insist on mounting the tires on the rear:

If there's ever gonna be an uneven wear pattern, it's gonna be on the front.

They put the tires on the rear so the customers won't complain about premature or uneven tire wear.

The safety reason is just a copout excuse.

 

[Nick1994]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I'm gonna tell you guys why I think they insist on mounting the tires on the rear:

If there's ever gonna be an uneven wear pattern, it's gonna be on the front.

They put the tires on the rear so the customers won't complain about premature or uneven tire wear.

The safety reason is just a copout excuse.


I agree, also with balder tires up front they'll wear out sooner and they'll get to sell you another pair of tires sooner.

Next time it rains here I'm gonna find a deserted road or parking lot and see if I can get the rear end to slide around.

 

[MNgopher]

Having had the experience of the rear end coming out unexpectedly in a front wheel drive car with the poorer tires in the rear, put me in the camp of best tires in the back. I consider myself to be a competent driver.

The end result of my incident was wounded pride after going through an intersection in a spin. (Snow, ice, and refreeze conditions) It could have been much worse. Lesson learned.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
If there's ever gonna be an uneven wear pattern, it's gonna be on the front.

If your alignment is out of whack, you can have uneven wear on either axle.

Quote:

They put the tires on the rear so the customers won't complain about premature or uneven tire wear.

So what about all those RWD cars out there?

Quote:

The safety reason is just a copout excuse.

Oh yeah. It's a huge conspiracy. Time to buy a bigger tinfoil hat again...

 

[geeman789]

Legal liability 101...

Understeer off road, or plow, or go straight when you want to turn.... DRIVERS FAULT. End. Stupid driver, too fast for conditions whatever...

DRIVERS FAULT...!

Oversteer, loose, spin out... etc.

CARS FAULT... LAWSUIT ... LIABILITY LAWYERS... JURY.

SUE THE TIRE STORE ETC.

Sooo, if you were a tire store, where would you put those new, way grippier tires in the wet, ice, snow etc...?

On the front? Which COULD, MAYBE, UNDER SOME CONDITIONS... CAUSE OVERSTEER, SPIN, ETC...?

Easy choice. Tire stores around here will lose a sale before they put a pair of new tires on the front...

And if you say I'm just gonna change them at home, most will say GO AHEAD...but we will not. PERIOD.

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Front tires steer and have most braking power.

But it does you little good when your rear is coming around.


As long as its on dry roads, new tires should be on the FRONT. Tires with a little tread worn down will have better traction dry. If you put new tires on the front, either pray for no rain, or drive extra slowly when it does.

 

[y_p_w]

Of course it's an oversimplification, but where no tire shop I've ever been to seems to apply any deductive reasoning. I certainly understand the tendency towards the rear breaking loose in poor weather. However, front tires can hydroplane too. Also - I haven't been to a tire shop that had a problem with rotating the tires, even when the difference in wear (much more in front) was extremely noticeable.