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#3414254 - 07/04/14 08:19 AM school me on DI engines please
andyd Online   content


Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 4932
Loc: Marshfield , MA
OK, This new design carbons up the valves and dilutes the oil. How can this be good ? Is there a plus factor I'm not seeing? I'm still in the last millennium car-wise grin2
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#3414260 - 07/04/14 08:22 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 31793
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: andyd
Is there a plus factor I'm not seeing?

More power and better fuel economy, supposedly.
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#3414293 - 07/04/14 09:05 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 14037
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: andyd
OK, This new design carbons up the valves and dilutes the oil. How can this be good ? Is there a plus factor I'm not seeing? I'm still in the last millennium car-wise grin2


No plus factor i know of that doesn't evaporate quickly with use. It will be fine at some point but not something i want at the moment.
They are experimenting and you are the guinea pig.
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#3414294 - 07/04/14 09:07 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 6378
Loc: out there
I really think this technology will improve over time. I'm not sure its there yet. When we bought out 2013 hyundai, I bought the elantra that was mpfi.


Edited by spasm3 (07/04/14 09:07 AM)
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#3414318 - 07/04/14 09:40 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
NHGUY Offline


Registered: 10/09/11
Posts: 4655
Loc: USA
Thousands of PSI to inject at high atomization rates,possibility of catastrophic fires in a head on collision (that fuel pressure has to go somewhere),expensive mechanical fuel pumps,special (expensive) injectors,oil dilution....no,I am no fan of DI or new diesels.Wait until they get older and the repair bills start coming in....and the local shops cant fix it.

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#3414327 - 07/04/14 09:54 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
loyd Offline


Registered: 08/30/12
Posts: 144
Loc: California
There is nothing inherently wrong with Direct Injection, just the current implementations which sound like they are using batch-fire mode instead of Timed injection.

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#3414339 - 07/04/14 10:10 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: loyd]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 6378
Loc: out there
Originally Posted By: loyd
There is nothing inherently wrong with Direct Injection, just the current implementations which sound like they are using batch-fire mode instead of Timed injection.


The unwashed intake valve may be a problem though, unless the figure out another way to feed the crankcase vapors into the motor.
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#3414341 - 07/04/14 10:14 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: spasm3]
yesthatsteve Offline


Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 670
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: loyd
There is nothing inherently wrong with Direct Injection, just the current implementations which sound like they are using batch-fire mode instead of Timed injection.


The unwashed intake valve may be a problem though, unless the figure out another way to feed the crankcase vapors into the motor.


We ruled out Skyactiv Mazdas for our purchase earlier this year since GDI has such a short track record in the US. That said, I'm curious: how much would a catch can mitigate the intake deposit problem?
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#3414343 - 07/04/14 10:16 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: NHGUY]
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 8552
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
Thousands of PSI to inject at high atomization rates,possibility of catastrophic fires in a head on collision (that fuel pressure has to go somewhere),expensive mechanical fuel pumps,special (expensive) injectors,oil dilution....no,I am no fan of DI or new diesels.Wait until they get older and the repair bills start coming in....and the local shops cant fix it.


While I agree on the repair cost FUD aspect the fire aspect I don't. Diesels have used high pressure for years. And gasoline is as flamible as ever. Pretty sure cars have had issues with fires for ever, low pressure systems included. The high pressure loop is in a physically small area of the car, as compared to all the fuel lines. And of course that huge tank containing gallons of flamible liquid.
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#3414355 - 07/04/14 10:29 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: supton]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 2297
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: supton
While I agree on the repair cost FUD aspect the fire aspect I don't. Diesels have used high pressure for years...


It's not accurate to compare diesel fuel and gasoline in the manner which you did.

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#3414356 - 07/04/14 10:29 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
Rickey Offline


Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 859
Loc: North Carolina
"OK, This new design carbons up the valves and dilutes the oil. How can this be good ? Is there a plus factor I'm not seeing? I'm still in the last millennium car-wise"

I don't believe this applies across the board.

Some manufacturers utilize this technology better than others.

Can someone point out a GM or Ford DI product that has a problem caused by the DI?

The oil dilution and Intake Valve Deposit problems mentioned were (are?) a very real issue for certain other brands. hornets


More power and economy are some of the noteworthy benefits of DI.
323 Flywheel HP and 30 MPG from the GM LFX 3.5 V6 in the 2014 Camaro for example.
This would be difficult or impossible to get with emissions compliance without DI.


I don't think anyone has used batch injection with DI.
Some older port injection engines did in the 90's and before.
If the DI engines injectors are under control of the ECM why not accurately time the firings?

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#3414366 - 07/04/14 10:37 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: Oil Changer]
rockydee Offline


Registered: 03/09/14
Posts: 257
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
Originally Posted By: supton
While I agree on the repair cost FUD aspect the fire aspect I don't. Diesels have used high pressure for years...


It's not accurate to compare diesel fuel and gasoline in the manner which you did.


Yep different animal. Lots of DI threads tell me people are still unsure of it though. I hear its getting better.

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#3414368 - 07/04/14 10:40 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: andyd]
Corvette Owner Offline


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1676
Loc: Waldorf, Maryland
GM reduced the OLM from a max of 10,000 miles to 5500 on 2011 chevy Equinox due to oil dilution and premature timing chain wear.

That said my 2014 Impala is DI and currently the OLM forecasts 8,000 mile OCI. With a 3.6 liter engine making 305 hp and getting 31.5 mpg on trips, with a full size car, I think they have made progress.


Edited by Corvette Owner (07/04/14 10:45 AM)
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#3414373 - 07/04/14 10:44 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: Rickey]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Rickey
Can someone point out a GM or Ford DI product that has a problem caused by the DI?.


The GM 3.6L V6 (LLT and LFX) had timing chain wear problems, and Lubrizol had an excellent article on what DI engines are facing. GM cut the oil change intervals in half thru the oil life monitor olm on the GM V6s a couple of years ago.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3413099/Re:_Filter_Direct_Injection_So#Post3411769
http://gf-6.com/sites/default/files/Turb...ig%20Hurdle.pdf

Also Ford Ecoboost has PCV problems that coke up the intake valves.


Edited by boundarylayer (07/04/14 10:45 AM)

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#3414376 - 07/04/14 10:49 AM Re: school me on DI engines please [Re: Corvette Owner]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Corvette Owner
GM reduced the OLM from a max of 10,000 miles to 5500 on 2011 chevy Equinox due to oil dilution and premature timing chain wear.

That said my 2014 Impala is DI and currently the OLM forecasts 8,000 mile OCI. With a 3.6 liter engine making 305 hp and getting 31.5 mpg on trips, with a full size car, I think they have made progress.


The GM 3.6L V6 did trace some of the timing chain problems back to a bad timing-chain supply part, they 'forgot' to carbonitride surface harden the chains properly for some parts, so GM cut the oil change interval to waste oil and be safe until a few years go by and they are able to solve the supply problems and maybe change(?) the ring design to help prevent soot carbon particles from entering the oil and increasing wear rates (and fuel dilution too).

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