Why is it that m1 0w40 is on the approved list for bmw, mb etc for diesel use, but you can't use it in a powerstroke, durmax ect. Before everyone chimes in and says that it's not specked i know its not. I want to know why you can use it on some diesels and not on others.
M1 0w40 In a diesel
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Originally Posted By: simplistic
Why is it that m1 0w40 is on the approved list for bmw, mb etc for diesel use,
What lists are you referring to? M1 0w-40 is NOT approved for any modern diesel engine because it has an additive package that's too rich and may be harmful to modern diesel emissions equipment (DPF).
Now, M1 0w-40 does carry API CF rating, so it does make it applicable for older diesel engines that call for this spec.
Why is it that m1 0w40 is on the approved list for bmw, mb etc for diesel use,
What lists are you referring to? M1 0w-40 is NOT approved for any modern diesel engine because it has an additive package that's too rich and may be harmful to modern diesel emissions equipment (DPF).
Now, M1 0w-40 does carry API CF rating, so it does make it applicable for older diesel engines that call for this spec.
I believe the 07 and older Chevy 6.6 Duramax do not have DPF only catalytic converters.
How many of these are small diesel standards?
Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builder approvals:
MB-Approval 229.3 X
MB-Approval 229.5 X
BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01 X
VW 502 00/505 00 X
PORSCHE A40 X
According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W40 is of the following quality:
API CF X
VW 503 01 X
SAAB X
OPEL Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025 X
OPEL Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025 X
FIAT 9.55535 - M2 X
FIAT 9.55535 - N2 X
FIAT 9.55535 - Z2
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx
Isn't M1 0W-40 the specified oil for the MB/Dodge Sprinter diesel engine?
Anyway, the automotive diesel engines take different oil from heavy duty diesels, even pickup truck diesels. The engines are made for oils like the M1 0W-40.
Mobil 1 0W-40 has the following builder approvals:
MB-Approval 229.3 X
MB-Approval 229.5 X
BMW LONGLIFE OIL 01 X
VW 502 00/505 00 X
PORSCHE A40 X
According to ExxonMobil, Mobil 1 0W40 is of the following quality:
API CF X
VW 503 01 X
SAAB X
OPEL Long Life Service Fill GM-LL-A-025 X
OPEL Diesel Service Fill GM-LL-B-025 X
FIAT 9.55535 - M2 X
FIAT 9.55535 - N2 X
FIAT 9.55535 - Z2
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx
Isn't M1 0W-40 the specified oil for the MB/Dodge Sprinter diesel engine?
Anyway, the automotive diesel engines take different oil from heavy duty diesels, even pickup truck diesels. The engines are made for oils like the M1 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: simplistic
I want to know why you can use it on some diesels and not on others.
It's absolutely fine for many older North American diesels. In Canada, at least, it wouldn't be cost effective in the least.
I want to know why you can use it on some diesels and not on others.
It's absolutely fine for many older North American diesels. In Canada, at least, it wouldn't be cost effective in the least.
Ok.. so it's the addv pack that makes it prohibitive on newer diesels? And ok on older ones.. pre 05/06 range?
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
Originally Posted By: simplistic
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Mobil 1 0w40 is sold as Mobil 1 0w40 turbo diesel in Europe as it carries ACEA A3/B4 and other manufacturer approvals. There are more and more Japanese and Euro light diesels using light duty diesel ratings rather than API. A3/B4 makes it a capable diesel oil far better than API CF would suggest.
Originally Posted By: 209paulc
If your BMW has a direct injection diesel engine, requires ACEA A3/B4 which M1 0w40 meets..you should be good to go
Is there any automotive diesel that is not direct injected? Even in the last 10 years? I haven't owned a non-direct injected diesel since the mid 90's.
If your BMW has a direct injection diesel engine, requires ACEA A3/B4 which M1 0w40 meets..you should be good to go
Is there any automotive diesel that is not direct injected? Even in the last 10 years? I haven't owned a non-direct injected diesel since the mid 90's.
Because M1 0W-40 is not a mid-SAPS oil.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Because M1 0W-40 is not a mid-SAPS oil.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
I beg to differ with the part of your comment pertaining to soot and EGR.
High SAPS oils do not form more soot, but engines calibrated for EGR do form more soot.
And engines with EGR but without DPF are perfectly capable of using high SAPS oils.
Typical CI4+ oils have 1.2-1.5% SA, the deposits in EGR valves are soot, and other fuel combustion products, NOT ash from oil.
Charlie
Because M1 0W-40 is not a mid-SAPS oil.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
I beg to differ with the part of your comment pertaining to soot and EGR.
High SAPS oils do not form more soot, but engines calibrated for EGR do form more soot.
And engines with EGR but without DPF are perfectly capable of using high SAPS oils.
Typical CI4+ oils have 1.2-1.5% SA, the deposits in EGR valves are soot, and other fuel combustion products, NOT ash from oil.
Charlie
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: simplistic
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Not quite - MB 229.5 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together, for passenger cars.
MB 229.51 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together also, but Low SAPS.
Originally Posted By: simplistic
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Not quite - MB 229.5 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together, for passenger cars.
MB 229.51 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together also, but Low SAPS.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Because M1 0W-40 is not a mid-SAPS oil.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
I beg to differ with the part of your comment pertaining to soot and EGR.
High SAPS oils do not form more soot, but engines calibrated for EGR do form more soot.
And engines with EGR but without DPF are perfectly capable of using high SAPS oils.
Typical CI4+ oils have 1.2-1.5% SA, the deposits in EGR valves are soot, and other fuel combustion products, NOT ash from oil.
Charlie
https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf
Lubrizol begged to differ at the UEIL International Congress in 2006. On page 20/21 they show that in their testing, the use of Euro 3 (read: high-SAPS) compared to mid-SAPS oils yield:
It's also true in the real world, you seldom see people with mid-SAPS oils clean their EGR system while there are a gazillion howtos for it on turbo diesels spec'd for high-SAPS as you get the engine check light all the time at >100K.
In a study from Total they link it to the (intended) oil consumption: http://www.southernlubricants.co.uk/aqad...y%20Mode%5D.pdf
Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Because M1 0W-40 is not a mid-SAPS oil.
It (like all other high-SAPS oils) kills diesel particulate filters and clogs the exhaust gas recirculation system with soot.
Which is expensive (DPF) and/or time consuming (cleaning all the soot out of the pipes and EGR valve) to fix.
So manufacturers started to specify mid-SAPS oils to counteract that.
I beg to differ with the part of your comment pertaining to soot and EGR.
High SAPS oils do not form more soot, but engines calibrated for EGR do form more soot.
And engines with EGR but without DPF are perfectly capable of using high SAPS oils.
Typical CI4+ oils have 1.2-1.5% SA, the deposits in EGR valves are soot, and other fuel combustion products, NOT ash from oil.
Charlie
https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/ConferencePapers/LowerSAPS.pdf
Lubrizol begged to differ at the UEIL International Congress in 2006. On page 20/21 they show that in their testing, the use of Euro 3 (read: high-SAPS) compared to mid-SAPS oils yield:
- Increased piston deposit formation
- Increased particulate emmisions
- Increased clogging of the EGR piping by 42%
- 140% faster blocking of the DPF
- Exhaust back pressure over five times greater
- 1.5% increased fuel consumption
It's also true in the real world, you seldom see people with mid-SAPS oils clean their EGR system while there are a gazillion howtos for it on turbo diesels spec'd for high-SAPS as you get the engine check light all the time at >100K.
In a study from Total they link it to the (intended) oil consumption: http://www.southernlubricants.co.uk/aqad...y%20Mode%5D.pdf
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MaxPayne
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: simplistic
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Not quite - MB 229.5 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together, for passenger cars.
MB 229.51 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together also, but Low SAPS.
MB seems to be conflicting on this in their sources. BEVO website does seem to agree with you, but then vehicle owners manuals do not. Here is an example:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ng?#Post3247896
They clearly delineate that 229.5 is for petrol and 229.51 is for diesel engines.
Granted, if it's an older MB diesel engine with no DPF, then full SAPS oils such as those on the 229.5 list are just fine.
Then there are regional fuel quality issues that also come into play (sulfur content). Out here in the US, MB does not allow the use of 229.51 oils in any of their gasoline engines for that reason.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: simplistic
Am i missing this completely? I'm just trying to understand this. Rotella t-5 excides mb228.51.. which is a lower rating then what m1 0w40 mb rating is.
It's not about a lower number in the spec. It's about the "1" at the end. So, MB 229.5 is a gasoline spec. 229.51 is a diesel spec. One is not better than the other. They're just different specs for different applications.
Not quite - MB 229.5 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together, for passenger cars.
MB 229.51 is a gasoline and diesel spec. together also, but Low SAPS.
MB seems to be conflicting on this in their sources. BEVO website does seem to agree with you, but then vehicle owners manuals do not. Here is an example:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ng?#Post3247896
They clearly delineate that 229.5 is for petrol and 229.51 is for diesel engines.
Granted, if it's an older MB diesel engine with no DPF, then full SAPS oils such as those on the 229.5 list are just fine.
Then there are regional fuel quality issues that also come into play (sulfur content). Out here in the US, MB does not allow the use of 229.51 oils in any of their gasoline engines for that reason.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The Japanese and Europeans don't use the US CI4 type specifications, while the US manufacturers don't use ACEA and JASO (typically).
Until you get to the ACEA E specifications, many of which are based on the CJ-4 specification. Of course, I don't think I've ever seen a North American diesel application list anything in the way of ACEA specifications - just builder approvals, aside from the API specification. As Doug Hillary has mentioned, the API basically needed a kick in the pants some years ago to get the API diesel specs to something the OEMs could work with.
The Japanese and Europeans don't use the US CI4 type specifications, while the US manufacturers don't use ACEA and JASO (typically).
Until you get to the ACEA E specifications, many of which are based on the CJ-4 specification. Of course, I don't think I've ever seen a North American diesel application list anything in the way of ACEA specifications - just builder approvals, aside from the API specification. As Doug Hillary has mentioned, the API basically needed a kick in the pants some years ago to get the API diesel specs to something the OEMs could work with.
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