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#3411824 - 07/01/14 04:21 PM New To BMW and Synthetics
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
Hi all,

Great to be a part of this community, very impressed by the dedication to engine oil. I have two questions for you oil experts. I have a 2005 325i with 150k km. This is my first German car and first car that requires synthetic oil. I've already figured out that I should use LL-01 certified oil. Choices are limited where I live. I was able to find Castrol EDGE 5W40 LL-01 certified oil on sale and used it for my first oil change.

My question is: is the 5W40 oil too thick for Canadian winters? Is there any negative consequence of using this oil in the winter? It gets maybe -25 Celsius here on a really bad day. Usually it's not that cold though and it's just a few degrees below zero.

5W40 Castrol Edge LL-01 certified is:

100 degree viscosity is 13.9
40 degree viscosity is 82.6

0W30 Castrol Edge, which is also LL-01 certified, is a bit thinner. I didn't see this oil in 5L jugs though.

100 degree viscosity is 12.21
40 degree viscosity is 72.0

Mobil 1 0W40 is also readily available here:

100 degree viscosity is 13.5
40 degree viscosity is 75

All these oils are LL-01 but the viscosity varies a bit. Does it matter which one I use in my DD?

Second question is: what kind of oil change interval should I follow? I drive about 10-13k km per year. Mostly short trips. So I was thinking once a year or 10k km on synthetic oil should be good.


Edited by camrydriver111 (07/01/14 04:25 PM)

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#3411834 - 07/01/14 04:43 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
Any of those 3 oils is fine, even the 5W-40 in -25*C. I like M1, so I'd say use that, but really, buy whatever is cheaper, easier to get, or makes you sleep better at night.

With that mileage, one OCI per year sounds fine.

Nice car!
_________________________
Molon Labe

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#3411836 - 07/01/14 04:44 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
I don't think Castrol is available in 5 litre containers.

I have only ever seen it in 1, 2 and 4 litres.

I have never used thinner oil in the winter unless it was specced in the handbook.

I have used a ticker oil in summer, most of my cars have used 5w30 of some description for several years, almost exclusively since Jan 2004.

If Mobil 1 0w40 meets all the specs you need and is an approved viscosity for your engine then that is what I would use.

I have had good service over the years with Mobil 1 0w40, both New Life and Turbo Diesel, not HDEO, the European Turbo Diesel.

I did look it up on the UK Mobil site and it advised 0w30 ESP

"b. Petrol engine oil viscosity recommendations: -20°C to 10°C, 10W-30; -20°C to 20°C, 10W-40; above -15°C, 15W-40; below 10°C, 5W-30; below 0°C, 5W-20. Oils listed and approved under BMW 'Longlife Oils' for all year round use: 0W-X and 5W-X"

Was in the comments section.



Edited by bigjl (07/01/14 04:49 PM)
_________________________
06 Clio1.5DCi,133k 6kOCI Shell Extra 5w40
08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci Sold with 125k
12 Jaguar XJL 3.0 D Luxury 118k 8kOCI Mob 1 ESP 5w30

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#3411860 - 07/01/14 05:41 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: bigjl
I don't think Castrol is available in 5 litre containers.

Here, the larger jugs (possibly 5 L, but more likely 4.4 L, given Wakefield's preferences) of Castrol 0w-40 would be worth considering. Considering the M1 0w-40 isn't available in larger containers up here (nor is GC), the Castrol 0w-40 might be most cost effective.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3411862 - 07/01/14 05:43 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Hi all,

Great to be a part of this community, very impressed by the dedication to engine oil. I have two questions for you oil experts. I have a 2005 325i with 150k km. This is my first German car and first car that requires synthetic oil. I've already figured out that I should use LL-01 certified oil. Choices are limited where I live. I was able to find Castrol EDGE 5W40 LL-01 certified oil on sale and used it for my first oil change.

My question is: is the 5W40 oil too thick for Canadian winters? Is there any negative consequence of using this oil in the winter? It gets maybe -25 Celsius here on a really bad day. Usually it's not that cold though and it's just a few degrees below zero.

5W40 Castrol Edge LL-01 certified is:

100 degree viscosity is 13.9
40 degree viscosity is 82.6

0W30 Castrol Edge, which is also LL-01 certified, is a bit thinner. I didn't see this oil in 5L jugs though.

100 degree viscosity is 12.21
40 degree viscosity is 72.0

Mobil 1 0W40 is also readily available here:

100 degree viscosity is 13.5
40 degree viscosity is 75

All these oils are LL-01 but the viscosity varies a bit. Does it matter which one I use in my DD?

Second question is: what kind of oil change interval should I follow? I drive about 10-13k km per year. Mostly short trips. So I was thinking once a year or 10k km on synthetic oil should be good.

I would personally stay away from castrol 5W40. Although it mets LL-01, it does not meet MB 229.5, which is very important.
My choice:
1. Castrol 0W30
2. Mobil1 0W40.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3411891 - 07/01/14 06:43 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12570
Loc: Chicago, IL
I agree with edyvw that the Castrol Syntec 5w40 isn't a great choice. It did not fare too well in my Audi S4, and the formula looks pretty mediocre.

I think you'd do fine with Mobil 1 0w40 (available everywhere, cheapest at Wal-Mart) or Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w40 (some Advance Auto Parts, also cheap on Amazon).

Castrol Edge 0w40 or Valvoline SynPower 5w40 would be my backups.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3411893 - 07/01/14 06:49 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: dparm]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: dparm
I agree with edyvw that the Castrol Syntec 5w40 isn't a great choice. It did not fare too well in my Audi S4, and the formula looks pretty mediocre.

I think you'd do fine with Mobil 1 0w40 (available everywhere, cheapest at Wal-Mart) or Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5w40 (some Advance Auto Parts, also cheap on Amazon).

Castrol Edge 0w40 or Valvoline SynPower 5w40 would be my backups.

For canadian winter, I would go with GC or BC (whatever it is now). In my usage, it proved better during cold months. Also, while M1 became more sheer stable, TBN did not hold very well at all in my UOA. It dropped after 5K from 11.8 to 2.6! I know my engine is DI, OP is not, but still.
Also, Castrol 0W40 is true synthetic oil and has better cold numbers then M1. I think he should be able to find Castrol 0W40 in 5qt jugs in Canada.
Only thing with Castrol 0W40 is that we do not have as many UOA as with M1. But I would say it is better product based on base stocks and numbers, especially for cold areas.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3411965 - 07/01/14 08:10 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
geeman789 Offline


Registered: 04/13/14
Posts: 279
Loc: Northern Alberta, Canada
All good choices...! I use M1 0w40 in the winter in a couple different cars... 5w40 M1 TDT , or ROTELLA T6 in the summer...

But please note... NO engine REQUIRES! synthetic oil. Take any car that specs a synthetic, from a Subaru Impreza right up to a new AMG Mercedes, and all will run equally well on a conventional oil of the right grade, changed at the appropriate interval.

The engine will not blow up if you use conventional, really. However, if you use conventional for 25 000 km's, it might...

Synthetic oils usually last longer, work better in extreme cold, and may perform better in extremely heavy duty use, as in sustained high oil temps while racing...
_________________________
2011 SUBARU Impreza AWD 5 spd / M1 0w30 / Toyo Gsi-5 winter tires... WINTER BEATER!


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#3412012 - 07/01/14 08:55 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: geeman789]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: geeman789
All good choices...! I use M1 0w40 in the winter in a couple different cars... 5w40 M1 TDT , or ROTELLA T6 in the summer...

But please note... NO engine REQUIRES! synthetic oil. Take any car that specs a synthetic, from a Subaru Impreza right up to a new AMG Mercedes, and all will run equally well on a conventional oil of the right grade, changed at the appropriate interval.

The engine will not blow up if you use conventional, really. However, if you use conventional for 25 000 km's, it might...

Synthetic oils usually last longer, work better in extreme cold, and may perform better in extremely heavy duty use, as in sustained high oil temps while racing...



Did you ever hear for sludge?
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3412013 - 07/01/14 08:55 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: geeman789]
ElastoHydro Offline


Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 218
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: geeman789
But please note... NO engine REQUIRES! synthetic oil. Take any car that specs a synthetic, from a Subaru Impreza right up to a new AMG Mercedes, and all will run equally well on a conventional oil of the right grade, changed at the appropriate interval.

The engine will not blow up if you use conventional, really. However, if you use conventional for 25 000 km's, it might...

Synthetic oils usually last longer, work better in extreme cold, and may perform better in extremely heavy duty use, as in sustained high oil temps while racing...


Except you don't know that. The problem with conventional dino is that it may not stand up to turbo-heat, ring pack heat, journal bearing shear, foaming, etc. that matter every mile you drive, from a fresh oil change forward. Dino puts down more deposits according to Lubrizol's discussion at Article Link Click Here Also, notice dexos1 oils are not dino conventional.

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#3412017 - 07/01/14 08:58 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: ElastoHydro]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
Originally Posted By: geeman789
But please note... NO engine REQUIRES! synthetic oil. Take any car that specs a synthetic, from a Subaru Impreza right up to a new AMG Mercedes, and all will run equally well on a conventional oil of the right grade, changed at the appropriate interval.

The engine will not blow up if you use conventional, really. However, if you use conventional for 25 000 km's, it might...

Synthetic oils usually last longer, work better in extreme cold, and may perform better in extremely heavy duty use, as in sustained high oil temps while racing...


Except you don't know that. The problem with conventional dino is that it may not stand up to turbo-heat, ring pack heat, journal bearing shear, foaming, etc. that matter every mile you drive, from a fresh oil change forward. Dino puts down more deposits according to Lubrizol's discussion at Article Link Click Here Also, notice dexos1 oils are not dino conventional.

Precisly, just ask owners of Audi/VW 1.8T that used conventional oil or VW Passat owners 2.8 V6 (not in that number like 1.8T) about their experiences.
I would really like to see using Dino oil in BMW 335i, or AMG or 2.0T VW/Audi. Some synthetic oils cannot withstand more then 5K.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3412026 - 07/01/14 09:08 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
ElastoHydro Offline


Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 218
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Precisly, just ask owners of Audi/VW 1.8T that used conventional oil or VW Passat owners 2.8 V6 (not in that number like 1.8T) about their experiences.
I would really like to see using Dino oil in BMW 335i, or AMG or 2.0T VW/Audi. Some synthetic oils cannot withstand more then 5K.
What does bother me is that Ford Ecoboost turbo engines only spec dino conventional, and Hyundai turbos too, others I'm sure. Its true this stuff survives 'OK', yet I have to think more deposits and coking occurs with dino choices.

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#3412034 - 07/01/14 09:17 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: ElastoHydro]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6953
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Precisly, just ask owners of Audi/VW 1.8T that used conventional oil or VW Passat owners 2.8 V6 (not in that number like 1.8T) about their experiences.
I would really like to see using Dino oil in BMW 335i, or AMG or 2.0T VW/Audi. Some synthetic oils cannot withstand more then 5K.
What does bother me is that Ford Ecoboost turbo engines only spec dino conventional, and Hyundai turbos too, others I'm sure. Its true this stuff survives 'OK', yet I have to think more deposits and coking occurs with dino choices.

I am not sure of dino oil in turbocharged gasoline engines causes coking if changed every 3000 miles. However, I always find that those engines quickly develop severe varnish. The risk of coking versus simple varnish may vary to car to car, as I am used to seeing VW 1.8T engines with serious problems when conventional is used every 3000 miles. However, when I work on Volvo engines, it seems the varnish is nasty, but the engine runs fine for ages, so long as the conventional gets changed every 3000 miles.

I don't care what a user's manual for a turbocharged gasoline engine allows, I am only going to recommend synthetic. Whenever you read a post about turbocharged gasoline engines, the top 3 responses are M1 0w40, RT6 5w40, and GC.
_________________________
2010 Lancer Ralliart Sportback

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#3412046 - 07/01/14 09:33 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
artificialist, I read something the other day about the transit time (loiter) of engine oil in the piston ring area, and it was around 30 seconds. Thats lots of time to cook and make deposits if you're not a stable base oil. I guess its very difficult to shorten that dwell loiter time up there without over wetting the cylinder walls. Also, Kendall compared their semi-syn against the worst conventional dino they could find in a pair of taxis and they noticed their semi-syn left a much cleaner engine at 100,000 miles.

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#3412063 - 07/01/14 09:43 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: artificialist]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Precisly, just ask owners of Audi/VW 1.8T that used conventional oil or VW Passat owners 2.8 V6 (not in that number like 1.8T) about their experiences.
I would really like to see using Dino oil in BMW 335i, or AMG or 2.0T VW/Audi. Some synthetic oils cannot withstand more then 5K.
What does bother me is that Ford Ecoboost turbo engines only spec dino conventional, and Hyundai turbos too, others I'm sure. Its true this stuff survives 'OK', yet I have to think more deposits and coking occurs with dino choices.

I am not sure of dino oil in turbocharged gasoline engines causes coking if changed every 3000 miles. However, I always find that those engines quickly develop severe varnish. The risk of coking versus simple varnish may vary to car to car, as I am used to seeing VW 1.8T engines with serious problems when conventional is used every 3000 miles. However, when I work on Volvo engines, it seems the varnish is nasty, but the engine runs fine for ages, so long as the conventional gets changed every 3000 miles.

I don't care what a user's manual for a turbocharged gasoline engine allows, I am only going to recommend synthetic. Whenever you read a post about turbocharged gasoline engines, the top 3 responses are M1 0w40, RT6 5w40, and GC.

My friend used M1 5W30 in his Audi A4 1.8T. The reason: He did not want to pay dealership $89 to change oil, so he was going to those 10 minute oil changes. I warned him that that is not proper oil, but he said&#268; well, it is synthetic.
I did not want to go into deeper discussion since he knows about cars like I do about nail polish, but after 80K his engine was dead! Sludge was so bad that turbo stayed without oil lubrication and damaged also engine to the point beyond any repair.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3412065 - 07/01/14 09:45 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: ElastoHydro]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: ElastoHydro
What does bother me is that Ford Ecoboost turbo engines only spec dino conventional, and Hyundai turbos too, others I'm sure. Its true this stuff survives 'OK', yet I have to think more deposits and coking occurs with dino choices.


Most engines perform alright laying down some deposits. Enthusiasts don't like it. I'd use synthetics just to be sure. Always beat the minimum spec if possible and easy to do.

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#3412069 - 07/01/14 09:49 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
boundarylayer Offline


Registered: 06/29/14
Posts: 202
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: edyvw

My friend used M1 5W30 in his Audi A4 1.8T. The reason: He did not want to pay dealership $89 to change oil, so he was going to those 10 minute oil changes. I warned him that that is not proper oil, but he said&#268; well, it is synthetic.
I did not want to go into deeper discussion since he knows about cars like I do about nail polish, but after 80K his engine was dead! Sludge was so bad that turbo stayed without oil lubrication and damaged also engine to the point beyond any repair.


I don't want to be cynical, yet I have to think those quick-lube places might have been putting in dino while telling the customer it was Mobil1. Maybe. Its happened.

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#3412074 - 07/01/14 09:53 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: boundarylayer]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: boundarylayer
Originally Posted By: edyvw

My friend used M1 5W30 in his Audi A4 1.8T. The reason: He did not want to pay dealership $89 to change oil, so he was going to those 10 minute oil changes. I warned him that that is not proper oil, but he said&#268; well, it is synthetic.
I did not want to go into deeper discussion since he knows about cars like I do about nail polish, but after 80K his engine was dead! Sludge was so bad that turbo stayed without oil lubrication and damaged also engine to the point beyond any repair.


I don't want to be cynical, yet I have to think those quick-lube places might have been putting in dino while telling the customer it was Mobil1. Maybe. Its happened.

Could be, but M1 5W30 does not have high HTHS necessary for those engines. I used M1 5W30 in Mazda V6, great oil. But in 1.8T you need something thicker, more sheer stable.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3412096 - 07/01/14 10:14 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
ElastoHydro Offline


Registered: 06/30/14
Posts: 218
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Could be, but M1 5W30 does not have high HTHS necessary for those engines. I used M1 5W30 in Mazda V6, great oil. But in 1.8T you need something thicker, more sheer stable.
HTHS doesn't relate to varnish/sludge build up, its the tendency to reduce viscosity under hot/fast/loaded conditions, related to oil film thickness.

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#3412174 - 07/02/14 12:10 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27097
Loc: a prison island
No, HTHS is the viscosity at 150C, and 10^6s^-1 shear rate...it's purely viscosity, not a "tendency" for anything

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#3412209 - 07/02/14 03:31 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: ElastoHydro]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 378
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU

] What does bother me is that Ford Ecoboost turbo engines only spec dino conventional, and Hyundai turbos too, others I'm sure. Its true this stuff survives 'OK', yet I have to think more deposits and coking occurs with dino choices. [/quote]


Car manufacturers will recommend anything to be competitible on a new car market. Cheaper oil,cheaper maintenance over all. They know engine will be good unti warranty runs out. Is Ford a strong player among fleet buyers? If so there is your answer. In Europe Alfa Romeo did same thing in the late 1990s early 2000s with their Twin Spark engines. They recommended 20k km OCI with only 10w-40 oil,and cambelt change every 120k km.Result: a lot of bottom end failures and a lot of bent valves.Cars that was running shorter OCI and 60k km cambelt change drive to this day with no problems. And this 20k oil and 120k belt was only to compete better with chain driven BMW for the fleet buyers as FIAT admitted later on.


Edited by chrisri (07/02/14 03:33 AM)
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

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#3412344 - 07/02/14 09:00 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: geeman789]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: geeman789
5w40 M1 TDT

Check with Imperial Oil for pricing on Delvac 1. It's about half the price of M1 TDT, which never goes on sale.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3412509 - 07/02/14 12:20 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Use the M1 0w-40, I've run it in my M5 for the last two winters and it performed admirably. My sister also runs it in her 330i, which is in Edmonton, again, flawless cold start performance.
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#3412567 - 07/02/14 01:30 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
MCompact Online   content


Registered: 07/21/02
Posts: 1831
Loc: KY
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Use the M1 0w-40, I've run it in my M5 for the last two winters and it performed admirably. My sister also runs it in her 330i, which is in Edmonton, again, flawless cold start performance.


^^^ This.
_________________________
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#3412661 - 07/02/14 03:19 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15287
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^X a dozen. It's a hard one to beat.

Printed right on my oil cap...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
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#3420156 - 07/09/14 10:09 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
A 40 weight oil is really not needed in a Canadian Winter. Yes a 0W40 will start up just fine at any temp, but if you have an oil temp gauge you will see that the oil will never approach the same temp it does in the summer. That 40 weight will cost you in MPG.

I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
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#3420232 - 07/09/14 11:18 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,

I'd be cautious in some vehicles, but generally speaking, especially with short tripping, there should be no issues. If I were driving my F-150 (or G for that matter) just a mile at a time in the winter from a cold start, I cannot see there being any problems with a 0w-20.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3420432 - 07/10/14 08:20 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: Garak

I'd be cautious in some vehicles,


Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3420470 - 07/10/14 08:58 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
I wanted to use 0W-20 in my BMW this past winter (kept outside in extreme northern Wisconsin and mainly short-tripped), but noooo.... I got shot down on here like I was advocating smallpox whistle

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,

I'd be cautious in some vehicles, but generally speaking, especially with short tripping, there should be no issues. If I were driving my F-150 (or G for that matter) just a mile at a time in the winter from a cold start, I cannot see there being any problems with a 0w-20.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 309K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3420483 - 07/10/14 09:13 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I wanted to use 0W-20 in my BMW this past winter (kept outside in extreme northern Wisconsin and mainly short-tripped), but noooo.... I got shot down on here like I was advocating smallpox whistle

So what did you use instead, and did it cause you problems?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
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#3420485 - 07/10/14 09:16 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
I put in the usual 0W-40 mainly because that is what I had.

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I wanted to use 0W-20 in my BMW this past winter (kept outside in extreme northern Wisconsin and mainly short-tripped), but noooo.... I got shot down on here like I was advocating smallpox whistle
So what did you use instead, and did it cause you problems?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 309K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3420547 - 07/10/14 10:17 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F

I wouldn't try it in a diesel, for one. wink

Seriously, I would be cautious with the European vehicles that do call for a higher HTHS, and given the oil temperatures of the G37, summer or winter (and given that the oil pan is well shielded from the elements), I'd not want to be experimenting with an ILSAC 20 if i were doing long tripping in the winter.

The oil temperature in a G37 will never be 130 F after an hour's operation, and I don't care how cold it is outside. Heck, I changed oil in the thing on one of the coldest days of the year, and after driving 8 miles in -34 C, I could barely touch the filter, and I've done bare handed oil changes with taxis that ran all day in 34 C weather in August. Oil temperatures in these 3.7 L engines customarily run north of 212 F even in "normal" driving.

If someone wishes to run a 0w-20 in that for anything aside from extremely short tripping, they can try it on their own G37. Heck, even the Audi 200's oil temperature, with extremely good oil cooling and allowing a 5w-20 in the winter, would have exceeded 130 F after an hour's drive in the winter. On the flip side, it would never exceed about 200 F, no matter how hard I pushed it even in extreme heat.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3420569 - 07/10/14 10:38 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
A 40 weight oil is really not needed in a Canadian Winter. Yes a 0W40 will start up just fine at any temp, but if you have an oil temp gauge you will see that the oil will never approach the same temp it does in the summer. That 40 weight will cost you in MPG.

I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,


The oil cooler on my M5 is also an oil heater. I've got my oil temp up to "regular" during the winter, it just takes a lot longer to get there.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
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#3420570 - 07/10/14 10:39 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: Garak

I'd be cautious in some vehicles,


Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F


I can get mine up to 180-190F if I drive it long enough. My issue last winter was the short tripping didn't get it much above 150-170F. And that is with a 7L sump.
_________________________
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#3420582 - 07/10/14 10:58 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: Garak

I'd be cautious in some vehicles,


Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F

LOL, in ANY European car after 10 minutes you would have 3rd degree burn touching filter.
I am driving car when go to ski, anywhere from 25 degrees to -30 degrees. On -30, if it is flat, not to mention uphill, coolant temp will be at 190 in about 5min, and considering that car has coolant/oil heat exchanger, very soon oil will reach same temp.
In the city, in very short distances, takes more time, but I would still say in about 10min coolant is at 190, and oil will get there very soon.
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420818 - 07/10/14 02:25 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9718
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,

I'd be cautious in some vehicles, but generally speaking, especially with short tripping, there should be no issues. If I were driving my F-150 (or G for that matter) just a mile at a time in the winter from a cold start, I cannot see there being any problems with a 0w-20.

Most BMWs due to their exposed finned ali' sumps have a hard time generating even low normal oil temp's of 80C in a Cdn winter. I've run M1 0W-20 in the winter in my Bimmer for that very reason.
But unless trips are quite short, under 20 minutes or you've got oil gauges to monitor things, just going with M1 AFE 0W-30 is probably the best choice. Heck it's MRV is lower than most 0W-20s anyway and it is heavy enough to be used used year round in a 2005 325. Or for non extremely cold winters and year round use I'd suggest any syn 5W-30, which is more than viscose enough even for spirited street driving on the hottest summer days.

Regarding LL-01 BMW approved oils, I think the list is too limited in terms of available oils choices. The BMW LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) isn't even available here, but if you're still under warranty here in Canada the BMW 5W-30 at $8.41 is hard to beat, cheaper than M1 0W-40 even on sale.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3420844 - 07/10/14 02:39 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?

_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 309K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3420869 - 07/10/14 02:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?


That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420906 - 07/10/14 03:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yes it probably does. What was your reasoning for using 40-weight in winter though, and why do you always stick with thicker oils? Do they protect better?

Trip length isn't accounted for in that chart, only ambient.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 190K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 309K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 228K

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#3420934 - 07/10/14 03:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yes it probably does. What was your reasoning for using 40-weight in winter though, and why do you always stick with thicker oils? Do they protect better?

Trip length isn't accounted for in that chart, only ambient.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.

When that chart was made, it was very hard, almost impossible to find 0W20 (and still is) or even 5W30 oil in Europe. Yes, all BMW's, VW's, Opel's etc had that chart.
Second, even BMW dealerships always used in E30's 15W40 oil regardless of season, while with introduction of 24V engines they started to use 10W40 and in mid 90's 5W40.
Even today, in Europe there is debate about 5W30 oils (which proved as disastrous for some diesel engines).
Almost all European cars have heat exchanger, and my only concern is cold flow, meaning at the start.
That is why I used here always x40 or the heaviest x30 oils such as GC or now M1 ESP (12.2cst).
Also, driving distance is not of concern to me, as long as oil has very good cold start flow. In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.
But, all my cars made more then 200,000 miles. I sold one Opel with around 320,000 miles.
So yes, I am more concerned with protection.
I started to use 5W30 ESP to address deposit issues in VW DI engine.
However, I choose M1 ESP because it has best pour point among readily available VW 504.00/507.00 oils (-45c), and it is the thickest one on market.
Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?
So x20 oils? If you ask me, not in Euro car under any circumstances (Volvo excluded or some others calling for thinner oils).
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420992 - 07/10/14 05:11 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9718
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?


That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.

Not understanding the concept of operational viscosity is not unusual, but bragging about it just reveals a closed mind.
Fortunately some brighter members are willing to learn something on the subject.

It doesn't apply to this model but the more powerful N20 BMW turbo 4 that is currently spec'd the BMW A3/B4 5W-30 has also the BMW approval of a 0W-20 for not just winter use but year round. Those with an open mind that are interested can check it out below:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3394810/1
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421012 - 07/10/14 05:37 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
LOL, in ANY European car after 10 minutes you would have 3rd degree burn touching filter.


No, I have a 7 series BMW with a 6.5L sump and finned aluminium pan, and it never get hotter than warm to the touch in winter.


Edited by Bluestream (07/10/14 05:38 PM)
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
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1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3421013 - 07/10/14 05:38 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
If it doesn't apply to the model being discussed then it is pointless to even mention it surely?

I would never hamper my car with an oil with such narrow operational limits.

What is to be gained?

A 5w30, 5w40 or even 0w40 will work perfectly well in sub zero temperatures.

But will not need changing if temperatures increase.

I have experienced high oil consumption with a BMW diesel engine many years ago on 0w40 that ceased completely on 5w40.

It was run with 5w40 summer and winter and had north of 250k on it when i sold it at 4 1/2 years old. I did only own from 80k onwards so not sure what was used by Vauxhall, it was an Omega with the BMW 2.5diesel lump, probably 10w40 Castrol which was the usual oil for many Vauxhalls back in the 90's
_________________________
06 Clio1.5DCi,133k 6kOCI Shell Extra 5w40
08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci Sold with 125k
12 Jaguar XJL 3.0 D Luxury 118k 8kOCI Mob 1 ESP 5w30

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#3421047 - 07/10/14 06:10 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9718
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.

What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421051 - 07/10/14 06:14 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: bigjl
If it doesn't apply to the model being discussed then it is pointless to even mention it surely?

I would never hamper my car with an oil with such narrow operational limits.

What is to be gained?

A 5w30, 5w40 or even 0w40 will work perfectly well in sub zero temperatures.

But will not need changing if temperatures increase.

I have experienced high oil consumption with a BMW diesel engine many years ago on 0w40 that ceased completely on 5w40.

It was run with 5w40 summer and winter and had north of 250k on it when i sold it at 4 1/2 years old. I did only own from 80k onwards so not sure what was used by Vauxhall, it was an Omega with the BMW 2.5diesel lump, probably 10w40 Castrol which was the usual oil for many Vauxhalls back in the 90's


This is an oil forum, and we are having a discussion so its not pointless.

Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

No offense, but what you call winter in the UK has nothing in common with the weather we have here
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3421077 - 07/10/14 06:41 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9718
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
What's to be gained?
It's not just about improved fuel economy, it's about optimized lubrication. It's unfortunate that most cars aren't equipped with oil gauges which tell's the whole story. Even the lightest 0W-20 is way heavier than optimum until you can get your oil temp's up to at least 75C. And even in a mild winter, those that have gauges are surprised at how infrequently oil temp's hit a low normal temp'. Running a 40 grade oil you need oil temp's at the high end of normal before your oil pump is even out of my-pass mode , forget about being even close to an optimum viscosity. All that excess viscosity reserve is to deal with very high oil temp's that never occurs unless you've got the throttle mashed 80% of the time which is virtually impossible in most regions of the world outside of a race track.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421213 - 07/10/14 08:35 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: CATERHAM]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.

What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3421236 - 07/10/14 08:57 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: CATERHAM]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Most BMWs due to their exposed finned ali' sumps have a hard time generating even low normal oil temp's of 80C in a Cdn winter. I've run M1 0W-20 in the winter in my Bimmer for that very reason.

The Audi would have been pretty safe in that regard, too. That thing could appropriately moderate oil temperatures.

kschan: I think it's possible to do, given you spec chart, which is much the same as what Audi did, in fact almost identical when it comes to the temperature ranges. It notes that you can use 15w-40 down to -20 C. My Audi's manual said the same thing and I was skeptical. Needless to say, I didn't try. I don't like seasonal oil changes, and given that your vehicle doesn't specially call for an approved lube, you have a few choices.

You could use 15w-40 in the summer and ILSAC 5w-30 or 10w-30 in the winter. You could probably get away with using the latter two year round, but watch consumption and pressure.

You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40. At least you're getting a better VI than a 10w-30 or 15w-40 and won't have to mess around with seasonal changes. Given that your engine doesn't specially call for approved lubes, you're also free to experiment with reasonable facsimiles such as Delvac 1, RP 0w-40, and so forth.

I know that a good 0w-20 could likely work well in the winter, particularly a cold one. I just don't know how long I'd want to stretch that into the summer or how safe it would be for how long, and without oil pressure gauges and relevant specifications, it would be hard to even begin to guess.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3421330 - 07/10/14 10:13 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.



What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.
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#3421350 - 07/10/14 10:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.



What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.


Good for him!
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#3421403 - 07/11/14 12:17 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.

At least of the time of writing, he was not using an ILSAC rated 0w-20. Red Line and the like are essentially cheating, if you ask me.
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#3421518 - 07/11/14 07:57 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
Even when the manual says you can.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
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#3421544 - 07/11/14 08:33 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

I don't know how I missed that. I'm going to call you on that one. You're saying that the majority of your increased fuel consumption in winter is due to thick fluids, as opposed to longer warm ups, worse rolling resistance in snow, winter fuel, and so forth? How short are the trips you take?
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#3421546 - 07/11/14 08:34 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.
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#3421547 - 07/11/14 08:34 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even when the manual says you can.

Sometimes, the warning about extra oil consumption and/or fast speeds is printed in a different spot, too. Usually, there is some sort of warning about using 20 grades in the things. The Audi had wording to not panic about the ambient temperature going up, but to monitor the oil level more closely.
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#3421579 - 07/11/14 09:20 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.


He also:

A) short trips the car
B) does NOT beat on it
C) has the money to replace the engine if he nukes it.

Since I do NOT have a spare $20,000 kicking around to replace the engine in my M5, I'm certainly one of the people not willing to experiment with viscosity choices much thinner than specified by the OEM. Particularly given that nothing of detriment is happening by running the 0w-40 year round. And fuel consumption, given how I drive the thing, well, my right foot has a far greater impact on the amount of gas I go through than the grade of oil in the pan.
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#3421581 - 07/11/14 09:21 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even when the manual says you can.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
VW/Audi, Opel (GM) etc, wrote in their manuals that consumption of 1ltr of oil in 1,000km is acceptable rate, and that is if you use recommended oil. So would you say everything is normal because it says in the book?
Using such thin oil in older car means recipe for dirty garage floor after you turn of your car.
And yes, I think that using such thin oil in BMW is ridiculous.
My recipe is sticking to xW40 or very thick xW30 oils in Euro sled.


Edited by edyvw (07/11/14 09:23 AM)
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#3421584 - 07/11/14 09:21 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.



Which is EXACTLY what they did when they started spec'ing LL-98 , LL-01....etc. BMW Synthetic 5w-30 (and its equivalents) replaced that chart.
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#3421923 - 07/11/14 05:23 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

I don't know how I missed that. I'm going to call you on that one. You're saying that the majority of your increased fuel consumption in winter is due to thick fluids, as opposed to longer warm ups, worse rolling resistance in snow, winter fuel, and so forth? How short are the trips you take?


You're right! Those are all factors as well! But I take the same length of trips in the winter as summer
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#3422030 - 07/11/14 07:11 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.



Which is EXACTLY what they did when they started spec'ing LL-98 , LL-01....etc. BMW Synthetic 5w-30 (and its equivalents) replaced that chart.


No BMW 5W30 here and not available in most countries. One to ponder....

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#3422039 - 07/11/14 07:25 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: sprintman]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: sprintman
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.



Which is EXACTLY what they did when they started spec'ing LL-98 , LL-01....etc. BMW Synthetic 5w-30 (and its equivalents) replaced that chart.


No BMW 5W30 here and not available in most countries. One to ponder....


Dont worry, it will get there eventually...
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#3422291 - 07/12/14 12:16 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
No CAFE here, so not it won't

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#3422306 - 07/12/14 01:22 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: sprintman]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
We have no CAFE here, but I bet it made it here.
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#3422332 - 07/12/14 03:20 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
Those engines need 0w30, 0w40 or 5w40 LL01 6.5 litres

all those oils are fit and forget and with that mileage will last a long time

nice motor!

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#3422337 - 07/12/14 03:43 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.



You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps.

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#3422345 - 07/12/14 04:53 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 378
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU










You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps. [/quote]


Are you sure there is a difference between winter and summer petrol?
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#3422391 - 07/12/14 06:39 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: sprintman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: sprintman
No CAFE here, so not it won't

The BMW 5w30 is an ACEA A3/B4 high HTHS oil, so not exactly CAFE friendly either.
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#3422469 - 07/12/14 08:08 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
ryan2022 Offline


Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 1218
Loc: Calgary
Do they have kendall euro 5w40 where you are? I used that in our SLK when we had it, annual changes, and worked beautifully.

Theres also Pennzoil 5w40 which Napa usually has.
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#3422621 - 07/12/14 12:45 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: riggaz
For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.



You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps.


Its not the fuel, although that is a common misconception. The fuel is distilled to be more :volatile" to aid starting in cold temps.
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#3422714 - 07/12/14 02:44 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1332
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: riggaz
For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.



You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps.


Its not the fuel, although that is a common misconception. The fuel is distilled to be more :volatile" to aid starting in cold temps.


Well higher volatility usually mean lighter and less BTU
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#3422731 - 07/12/14 03:11 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


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BMWTurboDzl, yep, that's pretty well generally true...historically winter was when they added oxygenates to keep the HC and smog down too...there goes some mileage.

Worst change I've (personally) seen was 10%, switched from SAE30 over summer to 25W70 through winter in my J Car wagon...(albeit only got to -7C)...notably harder cranking, 10% poorer mileage on 10 mile commute, and no perceptible difference on the highway.

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#3422831 - 07/12/14 05:06 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Shannow]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: Shannow
BMWTurboDzl, yep, that's pretty well generally true...historically winter was when they added oxygenates to keep the HC and smog down too...there goes some mileage.

Worst change I've (personally) seen was 10%, switched from SAE30 over summer to 25W70 through winter in my J Car wagon...(albeit only got to -7C)...notably harder cranking, 10% poorer mileage on 10 mile commute, and no perceptible difference on the highway.


Try in -34C and report back
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#3422869 - 07/12/14 05:34 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: riggaz
For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.



You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps.


I have never experienced a drop in fuel economy in the winter.

I personally found fuel economy better in winter than summer due to not using aircon.
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#3423040 - 07/12/14 08:57 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Try in -34C and report back

I have. 40% is a stretch unless there's some substantial idling and/or extremely difficult issues with rolling resistance thanks to unplowed streets. As I've already posted here, with numbers, I didn't see huge differences between summer or winter mileage. A statistically significant difference is possible, but, like I said, 40% indicates a lot of idling or terrible road conditions.
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#3423242 - 07/13/14 02:59 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 378
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU


I have never experienced a drop in fuel economy in the winter.

I personally found fuel economy better in winter than summer due to not using aircon.

[/quote]


Same here but it rarely drops below 5C in winter.Summers had far greater impact on my fuel economy due to a frequent use of aircon.
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#3423433 - 07/13/14 11:23 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12570
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: bigjl

I have never experienced a drop in fuel economy in the winter.

I personally found fuel economy better in winter than summer due to not using aircon.




I use the AC all the time in the winter to defrost windows.
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#3423702 - 07/13/14 06:02 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Shannow]
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Originally Posted By: Shannow
BMWTurboDzl, yep, that's pretty well generally true...historically winter was when they added oxygenates to keep the HC and smog down too...there goes some mileage.

Worst change I've (personally) seen was 10%, switched from SAE30 over summer to 25W70 through winter in my J Car wagon...(albeit only got to -7C)...notably harder cranking, 10% poorer mileage on 10 mile commute, and no perceptible difference on the highway.


25W70 is for girlie boys. Real men use 40W70!

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#3424171 - 07/14/14 08:33 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: dparm]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: bigjl

I have never experienced a drop in fuel economy in the winter.

I personally found fuel economy better in winter than summer due to not using aircon.




I use the AC all the time in the winter to defrost windows.



That comment was directly related to a poster from the UK that reckoned he had a huge drop in fuel consumption in winter.
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#3424271 - 07/14/14 10:55 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England



That comment was directly related to a poster from the UK that reckoned he had a huge drop in fuel consumption in winter.

[/quote]

did I say huge?

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#3425164 - 07/15/14 03:23 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 134
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: riggaz
did I say huge?


A 40% change in fuel consumption is huge. I live in the UK and barely see a 1 or 2 point change (from, say, 41 mpg (UK) in the summer to 39 mpg in the winter). I use a/c in the summer when it's hot but not in the winter at all (save for a few 'seal conditioning' runs). The main factor in the winter is the cold starting, with thicker oil and a cold block that needs more energy to heat it up. Once at operating temperature the fluids will be more-or-less the same viscosity. If you are genuinely seeing a 40% change then you need it looking at.
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#3425169 - 07/15/14 03:57 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: weasley]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
He didn't say 40%, that was someone else. wink
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#3425248 - 07/15/14 07:41 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: weasley]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
Did I say 40%?

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#3425363 - 07/15/14 10:18 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: weasley]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: riggaz
did I say huge?


A 40% change in fuel consumption is huge. I live in the UK and barely see a 1 or 2 point change (from, say, 41 mpg (UK) in the summer to 39 mpg in the winter). I use a/c in the summer when it's hot but not in the winter at all (save for a few 'seal conditioning' runs). The main factor in the winter is the cold starting, with thicker oil and a cold block that needs more energy to heat it up. Once at operating temperature the fluids will be more-or-less the same viscosity. If you are genuinely seeing a 40% change then you need it looking at.


Quote: The fluids are the same viscosity at operating temp?

Are you kidding? Try driving 100KPH down a highway at -30C with that temperature air blowing over your rear axle. You can stop anytime and touch the axle, and its not even warm. What viscosity do you think that fluid is?
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#3425391 - 07/15/14 10:55 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: riggaz
did I say huge?


A 40% change in fuel consumption is huge. I live in the UK and barely see a 1 or 2 point change (from, say, 41 mpg (UK) in the summer to 39 mpg in the winter). I use a/c in the summer when it's hot but not in the winter at all (save for a few 'seal conditioning' runs). The main factor in the winter is the cold starting, with thicker oil and a cold block that needs more energy to heat it up. Once at operating temperature the fluids will be more-or-less the same viscosity. If you are genuinely seeing a 40% change then you need it looking at.


Quote: The fluids are the same viscosity at operating temp?

Are you kidding? Try driving 100KPH down a highway at -30C with that temperature air blowing over your rear axle. You can stop anytime and touch the axle, and its not even warm. What viscosity do you think that fluid is?

OK, ca you repeat your question?
What temperature is then motor oil if you drive 100kph at -30c (I did many times, so please tell me it is not on operating temp).
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#3425442 - 07/15/14 11:56 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: riggaz
For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.



You might find it's due to the winter grade fuel as well. It's no way near as "pure" as summer grade fuel. We have a drop in mpg in England on winter fuel so it's probably much worse at your temps.


Yes i believe you did say 40% increase due to "thick" fluids in the winter.

Since a huge percentage of UK vehicles now spec on 5w30 i don't consider that to be a particularly thick fluid.
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#3425443 - 07/15/14 11:58 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1708
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Did I say 40%?


Yes.

I have quoted the post for you above.
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#3425515 - 07/15/14 01:39 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: bigjl
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Did I say 40%?


Yes.

I have quoted the post for you above.

He did not write that. He was quoting member Bluestream, but forgot to include the quote tags.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ics#Post3421051
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#3425753 - 07/15/14 05:38 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: riggaz
did I say huge?


A 40% change in fuel consumption is huge. I live in the UK and barely see a 1 or 2 point change (from, say, 41 mpg (UK) in the summer to 39 mpg in the winter). I use a/c in the summer when it's hot but not in the winter at all (save for a few 'seal conditioning' runs). The main factor in the winter is the cold starting, with thicker oil and a cold block that needs more energy to heat it up. Once at operating temperature the fluids will be more-or-less the same viscosity. If you are genuinely seeing a 40% change then you need it looking at.


The oil temperature would be vehicle specific at -30C

Quote: The fluids are the same viscosity at operating temp?

Are you kidding? Try driving 100KPH down a highway at -30C with that temperature air blowing over your rear axle. You can stop anytime and touch the axle, and its not even warm. What viscosity do you think that fluid is?

OK, ca you repeat your question?
What temperature is then motor oil if you drive 100kph at -30c (I did many times, so please tell me it is not on operating temp).


The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific


Edited by Bluestream (07/15/14 05:39 PM)
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#3425831 - 07/15/14 07:04 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?
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#3426138 - 07/16/14 03:40 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?


At -30 the wind chill on his diff and sump @ 70mph will be very, very bad so I'd say he is absolutely correct. That's why manufacturers usually give oil recommendations based on ambient temps because they know this happens.

So while your statement that at operating temp they are the same is true, his oils will never get to full operating temp due to his ambient temps.


Edited by riggaz (07/16/14 03:45 AM)

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#3426359 - 07/16/14 10:26 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?


At -30 the wind chill on his diff and sump @ 70mph will be very, very bad so I'd say he is absolutely correct. That's why manufacturers usually give oil recommendations based on ambient temps because they know this happens.

So while your statement that at operating temp they are the same is true, his oils will never get to full operating temp due to his ambient temps.

That is interesting, considering that all cars that I drove and had oil temp. gauge, always reached operating temp even in colder weather.
All cars that I had, that were produced after 1990 had skid plate to protect sump, hoses, etc. Also, there is heat exchanger.
On short distances, of course it will not reach temp, but if you drive longer sure it will, especially in German cars that love to run hot.
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#3426379 - 07/16/14 10:50 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: riggaz
At -30 the wind chill on his diff and sump @ 70mph will be very, very bad

Based on what I've read before, machines do not feel wind chill. Wind chill is a term invented by meteorologist in relation to how human skin/body perceives a combination of temperature and wind.

With that said, I too observed slightly lower engine oil operating temps in cold weather on my old 2001 A4 1.8T that had an oil temp gauge. In the summer, it'd be around 190-200F. In winter (ambient temps below freezing), it'd be around 175F or so.
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#3426401 - 07/16/14 11:06 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
yeah wind chill is more of a figure of speech

Air does have a cooling effect when things move through it because the heat from said object is constantly being taken away rapidly. The radiator on your car works because of this.

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#3426403 - 07/16/14 11:09 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
riggaz Offline


Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 318
Loc: England
I think if you go off piste with the viscosity then you really need to check your oil pressure is in the specified range to make sure you've got it right.

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#3426658 - 07/16/14 04:00 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2736
Loc: Upper Midwest
It's the difference between evaporative heat loss and convection. You get convective heat transfer with moving air (as well as still air in the presence of gravity) but since the components are generally not moist you don't get the extra loss from the heat of vaporization.

Originally Posted By: riggaz
yeah wind chill is more of a figure of speech

Air does have a cooling effect when things move through it because the heat from said object is constantly being taken away rapidly. The radiator on your car works because of this.
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#3426664 - 07/16/14 04:14 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27097
Loc: a prison island
Yep kschchn is correct...wind chill is the effect if evaporating moisture that can mak the wet towel aroub yor neck cooler than the thernometer...an transfer way more heat than. Straight temperature difference would
otherwise do...about as much heat to evaporate a pound of water as getting it from freezing to boiling

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#3426669 - 07/16/14 04:16 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: riggaz]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7670
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?


At -30 the wind chill on his diff and sump @ 70mph will be very, very bad so I'd say he is absolutely correct. That's why manufacturers usually give oil recommendations based on ambient temps because they know this happens.

So while your statement that at operating temp they are the same is true, his oils will never get to full operating temp due to his ambient temps.



Really.

We experience real -40c cold here in Saskatchewan. My charger runs the same oil temps whether its -40c or 26c like today,it just takes a bit longer to get there,so your mistaken in that regard.
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#3426697 - 07/16/14 04:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Clevy]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yep, it's all very application specific. Thanks to the skid plate, the G37's oil temperatures were hotter in -34 C this winter than the taxis' oil temperatures were in +34 C, running all day. The Audi 200, with the oil cooler, did have a noticeable difference between the seasons, but nothing insanely different, with the real change being the time it took to get to temperatures, as you indicate. My F-150, the taxis, and so forth had a bit more noticeable difference..
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#3426706 - 07/16/14 05:09 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?


Yes, differential oil is the above case.

Read this tread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1570468/1
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#3427008 - 07/16/14 09:39 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Quote:
The oil temperature at -30C would be vehicle specific

So wait. Your claim is that at -30, if you drive 100kph you oil will not reach operating temp?


Yes, differential oil is the above case.

Read this tread:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1570468/1

I thought we are talking about engine oil here?
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#3427220 - 07/17/14 07:56 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4058
Loc: Waterloo, ON
read post #3425363
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#3427660 - 07/17/14 03:20 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9718
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bluestream


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.


He also:

A) short trips the car
B) does NOT beat on it
C) has the money to replace the engine if he nukes it.

Since I do NOT have a spare $20,000 kicking around to replace the engine in my M5, I'm certainly one of the people not willing to experiment with viscosity choices much thinner than specified by the OEM. Particularly given that nothing of detriment is happening by running the 0w-40 year round. And fuel consumption, given how I drive the thing, well, my right foot has a far greater impact on the amount of gas I go through than the grade of oil in the pan.

Correction. Ali has never run a 0W-20 grade per se in his Enzo, it's the RLI 0W-30 that he uses and with a HTHSV in the 3.6-3.8cP range it's operational viscosity is on par with M1 0W-40. An early version of RLI 0W-30 did produce a UOA with a KV100 of about 8cSt with fuel dilution so I guess you could say he did run 0W-20 but that's a stretch IMO.

He of course has oil gauges and his maximum oil temp's don't get above 82C, so regardless of how hard he does or doesn't drive the car he certainly is not taking any changes or "experimenting" he is simply optimizing the operational viscosity in the engine.
It makes a whole lot more sense to run the oil he is running with the way he operates the Enzo than the spec' 10W-60.

In his wife's Lambo' he is running Motorcraft syn-blend 5W-20 (HTHSV 2.65cP) at present. No argument here that he is using a true 20 grade OTC oil. If I'm not mistaken the Audi V8 in this car is spec'd for a A3/B4 5W-30 and 5W-40. Maximum oil temp's have reached 226F and the oil test spec's have been tested apparently but it is still just a street driven car.
One could consider this something of an "experiment" but only due to a lack of info on what the maximum permissible oil temp's would be on the spec' oil or minimum OP. If for the sake of argument it was 300F on a 3.6-3.8cP oil then a 2.65cP oil should be fine up to about 265F and that would be under maximum load conditions.

Ali will be posting a UOA of the Motorcraft oil from the Lambo' in due course. I'm sure it will be good.
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#3427669 - 07/17/14 03:40 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: CATERHAM]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

He of course has oil gauges and his maximum oil temp's don't get above 82C, so regardless of how hard he does or doesn't drive the car he certainly is not taking any changes or "experimenting" he is simply optimizing the operational viscosity in the engine.
It makes a whole lot more sense to run the oil he is running with the way he operates the Enzo than the spec' 10W-60.


thumbsup Given those operating parameters, that setup makes perfect sense. Glad you were able to shed some additional light on it. Though technically it is still experimenting, as he's running a non-spec lubricant, even if it is still not a huge step down in operational viscosity.

Kind of reminds me of the pre 03/00 M5 guys running M1 0w-40, GC...etc. Technically, those engines were never back-spec'd for the LL-01 oils, they still spec 10w-60. But of course the post 03/00 cars DID get spec'd for LL-01, so while technically an "experiment" as they are running a non-spec lube, it is one done with knowledge of what is essentially the exact same engine calling for the lighter oil with nothing more than a piston ring change.

Quote:
In his wife's Lambo' he is running Motorcraft syn-blend 5W-20 (HTHSV 2.65cP) at present. No argument here that he is using a true 20 grade OTC oil. If I'm not mistaken the Audi V8 in this car is spec'd for a A3/B4 5W-30 and 5W-40. Maximum oil temp's have reached 226F and the oil test spec's have been tested apparently but it is still just a street driven car.
One could consider this something of an "experiment" but only due to a lack of info on what the maximum permissible oil temp's would be on the spec' oil or minimum OP. If for the sake of argument it was 300F on a 3.6-3.8cP oil then a 2.65cP oil should be fine up to about 265F and that would be under maximum load conditions.

Ali will be posting a UOA of the Motorcraft oil from the Lambo' in due course. I'm sure it will be good.


Quite interested to see that, also sounds like oil temps are reasonably well controlled in that application as well. It isn't an experiment I'd do but I do applaud him for his effort. He can afford to do these things and is doing them for the sake of science/experimentation.
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#3427714 - 07/17/14 04:27 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Was reading the article here on viscosity ,and gees the chart they supplied is an eye opener.a 0w40 or the one step down 5w30 if i aint mistaken have a diff of .3 (sae)2.9 for 0w40 and 2.6 for the 5w30 so basicly they re very close at 150 degree.true an oil maker would benefit huge cred by having it as close to the 100 f value as the hths article (from here but for some reason i cant find on this site.)the higher the hths the better (as close to the 100 as possible the article seems to mean.sadly those hths value were likely the max .
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#3427715 - 07/17/14 04:29 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: yvon_la]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Was reading the article here on viscosity ,and gees the chart they supplied is an eye opener.a 0w40 or the one step down 5w30 if i aint mistaken have a diff of .3 (sae)2.9 for 0w40 and 2.6 for the 5w30 so basicly they re very close at 150 degree.true an oil maker would benefit huge cred by having it as close to the 100 f value as the hths article (from here but for some reason i cant find on this site.)the higher the hths the better (as close to the 100 as possible the article seems to mean


Depends on the purpose of the lubes. GF-5 5w-30 are around 3.0cp for HTHS, the "euro oils" like M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30, BMW 5w-30...etc all have an HTHS >=3.5cP. M1 0w-40 is 3.8cP IIRC.

The ACEA specs that these oils meet (except the BMW 5w-30, which doesn't officially carry the ACEA spec) calls for a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP.
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#3427717 - 07/17/14 04:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Was reading the article here on viscosity ,and gees the chart they supplied is an eye opener.a 0w40 or the one step down 5w30 if i aint mistaken have a diff of .3 (sae)2.9 for 0w40 and 2.6 for the 5w30 so basicly they re very close at 150 degree.true an oil maker would benefit huge cred by having it as close to the 100 f value as the hths article (from here but for some reason i cant find on this site.)the higher the hths the better (as close to the 100 as possible the article seems to mean


Depends on the purpose of the lubes. GF-5 5w-30 are around 3.0cp for HTHS, the "euro oils" like M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30, BMW 5w-30...etc all have an HTHS >=3.5cP. M1 0w-40 is 3.8cP IIRC.

The ACEA specs that these oils meet (except the BMW 5w-30, which doesn't officially carry the ACEA spec) calls for a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP.
are big rig oil (like cj-4 or acea 9 stuck with low hths value also ?
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#3427720 - 07/17/14 04:36 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: yvon_la]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Was reading the article here on viscosity ,and gees the chart they supplied is an eye opener.a 0w40 or the one step down 5w30 if i aint mistaken have a diff of .3 (sae)2.9 for 0w40 and 2.6 for the 5w30 so basicly they re very close at 150 degree.true an oil maker would benefit huge cred by having it as close to the 100 f value as the hths article (from here but for some reason i cant find on this site.)the higher the hths the better (as close to the 100 as possible the article seems to mean


Depends on the purpose of the lubes. GF-5 5w-30 are around 3.0cp for HTHS, the "euro oils" like M1 0w-40, GC 0w-30, BMW 5w-30...etc all have an HTHS >=3.5cP. M1 0w-40 is 3.8cP IIRC.

The ACEA specs that these oils meet (except the BMW 5w-30, which doesn't officially carry the ACEA spec) calls for a minimum HTHS of 3.5cP.
are big rig oil (like cj-4 or acea 9 stuck with low hths value also ?


No, only the energy conserving oils have the lower HTHS values (this is easily gleaned by just looking at the spec sheets of the oils you are thinking about). Most HDEO's have even higher HTHS's:

Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck:
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-40.aspx

HTHS of 3.8cP (same as M1 0w-40).

Mobil Delvac 1300 15w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.aspx

HTHS of 4.3cp
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#3427725 - 07/17/14 04:44 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
So technicly a customer could buy say a:valvoline synpower 0w20 with a hths of 8.9(or similar to what the 100 f value is?but it wouldnt be sn/energy conserving,it would be SN
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#3427735 - 07/17/14 04:51 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: yvon_la]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
So technicly a customer could buy say a:valvoline synpower 0w20 with a hths of 8.9(or similar to what the 100 f value is?but it wouldnt be sn/energy conserving,it would be SN


The HTHS of synpower 0w-20 is like 2.6cP. You are looking at the visc at 100C figure.
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#3427741 - 07/17/14 04:55 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
So technicly a customer could buy say a:valvoline synpower 0w20 with a hths of 8.9(or similar to what the 100 f value is?but it wouldnt be sn/energy conserving,it would be SN


The HTHS of synpower 0w-20 is like 2.6cP. You are looking at the visc at 100C figure.
humor me please (in theory if it was made it would be a sn oil but not energy conserving right?)
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#3427748 - 07/17/14 05:03 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: yvon_la]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
So technicly a customer could buy say a:valvoline synpower 0w20 with a hths of 8.9(or similar to what the 100 f value is?but it wouldnt be sn/energy conserving,it would be SN


The HTHS of synpower 0w-20 is like 2.6cP. You are looking at the visc at 100C figure.
humor me please (in theory if it was made it would be a sn oil but not energy conserving right?)


Visc @ 100 is completely different than the HTHS visc, which is measured under high temp/high shear conditions. They are completely different measures. You cannot make a 0w-20 with an HTHS of 8.9, heck the HTHS of Redline's 10w-60 is "only" 5.8cP:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130&pcid=21
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#3428335 - 07/18/14 09:34 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: yvon_la]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Was reading the article here on viscosity ,and gees the chart they supplied is an eye opener.a 0w40 or the one step down 5w30 if i aint mistaken have a diff of .3 (sae)2.9 for 0w40 and 2.6 for the 5w30 so basicly they re very close at 150 degree.true an oil maker would benefit huge cred by having it as close to the 100 f value as the hths article (from here but for some reason i cant find on this site.)the higher the hths the better (as close to the 100 as possible the article seems to mean.sadly those hths value were likely the max .

Read a newer version of SAE J300. Those numbers you have are obsolete. 3.5 is the minimum HTHS for 0w-40, 5w-40, and 10w-40, with 3.7 the minimum for 15w-40, 20w-40, 25w-40, and SAE 40. Your older numbers are one reason why 10w-40 wasn't specified for as high temperatures as was 15w-40 in these German cars.

Also, read CJ-4 and the relevant ACEA E specifications. You're not going to find an HDEO meeting any of those specifications with an HTHS of under 3.5.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3434858 - 07/24/14 10:55 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: riggaz
At -30 the wind chill on his diff and sump @ 70mph will be very, very bad

Based on what I've read before, machines do not feel wind chill. Wind chill is a term invented by meteorologist in relation to how human skin/body perceives a combination of temperature and wind.

I haven't read all the way to the end, but wind chill is not a "perception". It's basic thermodynamics. The more air that moves over a body, the greater the heat transfer. Wind chill does not mean that the temperature is colder than the thermometer. It means the rate of cooling is "as if" the thermometer is at the wind chill temperature. This is why frostbite is more likely in windy conditions or when doing activities like snowmobiling in very cold temperatures. Frostbite is not a "perception", it's a very real condition. If you've ever gone skiing or snowmobiling in cold conditions (e.g., -30 or colder), you would know this.


Edited by bimmerdriver (07/24/14 11:00 PM)
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3435690 - 07/25/14 07:31 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27097
Loc: a prison island
bimmerdriver, it's not the volume of air passing something, it's the fact that we are wet sacks of meat, and water evaporates from our surface, extracting heat in addition to that moved away via convection.

If a machine is moving through the air at a dry bulb temperature of -30F, then the coldest that it can become is -30F, no matter how much air flows over it.

A wet sack of meat (or burlap bag, or washing on a clothes line) can go much lower than the dry bulb temperature as moisture evaporates from the surface...in low humidity, the wet bulb can be a LOT lower than the dry...that's what we perceive as wind chill...it's real, but machines (unless designed with evaporative cooling) don't feel it.

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#3435791 - 07/25/14 09:01 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Shannow]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
bimmerdriver, it's not the volume of air passing something, it's the fact that we are wet sacks of meat, and water evaporates from our surface, extracting heat in addition to that moved away via convection.

If a machine is moving through the air at a dry bulb temperature of -30F, then the coldest that it can become is -30F, no matter how much air flows over it.

A wet sack of meat (or burlap bag, or washing on a clothes line) can go much lower than the dry bulb temperature as moisture evaporates from the surface...in low humidity, the wet bulb can be a LOT lower than the dry...that's what we perceive as wind chill...it's real, but machines (unless designed with evaporative cooling) don't feel it.

Read what I said. The wind chill temperature is not colder than the thermometer, but the rate of cooling down to that temperature is more rapid than it would be with no wind chill. If you heat an object and let it cool in still air, it will take longer to cool than if the air is moving. Do you think blowing on food to cool it off is just a placebo? The effect you are talking about is not the same as wind chill.


Edited by bimmerdriver (07/25/14 09:02 PM)
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3435894 - 07/25/14 10:40 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bimmerdriver]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: Shannow
bimmerdriver, it's not the volume of air passing something, it's the fact that we are wet sacks of meat, and water evaporates from our surface, extracting heat in addition to that moved away via convection.

If a machine is moving through the air at a dry bulb temperature of -30F, then the coldest that it can become is -30F, no matter how much air flows over it.

A wet sack of meat (or burlap bag, or washing on a clothes line) can go much lower than the dry bulb temperature as moisture evaporates from the surface...in low humidity, the wet bulb can be a LOT lower than the dry...that's what we perceive as wind chill...it's real, but machines (unless designed with evaporative cooling) don't feel it.

Read what I said. The wind chill temperature is not colder than the thermometer, but the rate of cooling down to that temperature is more rapid than it would be with no wind chill. If you heat an object and let it cool in still air, it will take longer to cool than if the air is moving. Do you think blowing on food to cool it off is just a placebo? The effect you are talking about is not the same as wind chill.


Wind chill is referenced as a temperature colder than ambient though. That's why the weather network lists both, ie, it is -25, -34 with the wind chill. It isn't just the increase in heat loss but also the body's attempt to try and deal with the heat loss which ultimately just results in more heat loss, exasperating the problem.

So while the rate of cooling increase is a real phenomenon, the referenced "wind chill" temperature is still always listed as "perceived".

I think this aligns somewhat with what you were saying.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
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#3435908 - 07/25/14 11:01 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27097
Loc: a prison island
If the statement is that convective heat transfer increases with the speed of the wind over it, then it's perfectly correct...except that's NOT chill.

Car doesn't care whether it's moving or it's wind, but a diff filled with water at running through an ambient of zero C is not going to freeze, regardless of how fast it's going...a person, animal, or the fork full of wet food will experience another, latent heat effect.

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#3437782 - 07/27/14 08:20 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
Originally Posted By: Shannow
bimmerdriver, it's not the volume of air passing something, it's the fact that we are wet sacks of meat, and water evaporates from our surface, extracting heat in addition to that moved away via convection.

If a machine is moving through the air at a dry bulb temperature of -30F, then the coldest that it can become is -30F, no matter how much air flows over it.

A wet sack of meat (or burlap bag, or washing on a clothes line) can go much lower than the dry bulb temperature as moisture evaporates from the surface...in low humidity, the wet bulb can be a LOT lower than the dry...that's what we perceive as wind chill...it's real, but machines (unless designed with evaporative cooling) don't feel it.

Read what I said. The wind chill temperature is not colder than the thermometer, but the rate of cooling down to that temperature is more rapid than it would be with no wind chill. If you heat an object and let it cool in still air, it will take longer to cool than if the air is moving. Do you think blowing on food to cool it off is just a placebo? The effect you are talking about is not the same as wind chill.


Wind chill is referenced as a temperature colder than ambient though. That's why the weather network lists both, ie, it is -25, -34 with the wind chill. It isn't just the increase in heat loss but also the body's attempt to try and deal with the heat loss which ultimately just results in more heat loss, exasperating the problem.

So while the rate of cooling increase is a real phenomenon, the referenced "wind chill" temperature is still always listed as "perceived".

I think this aligns somewhat with what you were saying.

For what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, "Wind-chill or windchill, (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air." This has nothing to do with latent heat due to evaporation of moisture. It also has nothing to do with heat index or humidex, which is the perceived difference in temperature due to the humidity.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3437788 - 07/27/14 08:25 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bimmerdriver]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 26205
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
For what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, "Wind-chill or windchill, (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air."

OK, so what was wrong with the statement I made earlier?

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wind chill is a term invented by meteorologist in relation to how human skin/body perceives a combination of temperature and wind.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3437804 - 07/27/14 08:37 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
bimmerdriver Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 79
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bimmerdriver
For what it's worth, according to Wikipedia, "Wind-chill or windchill, (popularly wind chill factor) is the perceived decrease in air temperature felt by the body on exposed skin due to the flow of air."

OK, so what was wrong with the statement I made earlier?

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Wind chill is a term invented by meteorologist in relation to how human skin/body perceives a combination of temperature and wind.


If you're asking whether it's correct to state that wind-chill only applies to humans, then you're incorrect. Wind-chill applies to any object. It is not caused by latent heat of evaporation. That is a completely different physical effect. It's also different from heat-index, which is related to humidity.

Here is the explanation of wind-chill from Wikipedia:

A solid surface loses heat through evaporation, conduction, and radiation.[1] The rate of conduction depends on the difference in temperature between the surface and its surroundings. As conduction from a warm surface heats the air around it, an insulating boundary layer of warm air forms against the surface. Moving air disrupts this boundary layer, or epiclimate, allowing for cooler air to replace the warm air against the surface. The faster the wind speed, the more readily the surface cools.

The effect of wind chill is to increase the rate of heat loss and reduce any warmer objects to the ambient temperature more quickly. It cannot, however, reduce the temperature of these objects below the ambient temperature, no matter how great the wind velocity.
_________________________
2002 BMW M3 (mine)
1997 BMW 328is (sold)
2002 MB ML320 (hers)
2004 VW GTI (son)

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#3441229 - 07/31/14 12:03 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
There is less valvetrain noise after I put in LL-01 Castrol 5W40. I'm pretty happy with it so far. I don't think the car had the correct oil in it when I got it.

Actually I couldn't find M1 0W40 in big jugs at major stores. There is Royal Purple, but not M1 0W40, it's bizzare.

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#3441430 - 07/31/14 08:43 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26722
Loc: Ontario, Canada
M1 0w-40 isn't stocked in jugs up here, only the 1L bottles.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

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#3533005 - 11/08/14 03:01 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
Update.

I've got about 8000 km on the oil. The car didn't burn any oil in that time. The level seems to be the same as when I filled it up. I've done the valve cover gasket and VANOS seals on the engine as well. The engine is clean with no sludge. Would you change the oil earlier after doing a valve cover/VANOS job due to possibility of contaminants being introduced or is that just being OCD?

What would be a good OCI for Castrol Edge 5W40? I was initially planning on doing 10,000 km OCI but winter is coming up and I don't feel like changing the oil in the winter. I also don't want to needlessly change it too soon. The factory interval is 25,000 km, which most people agree is too long, so I was thinking about doing half of that 12,500 km. I do 95% city driving though. My commute is 10 km long. The car is fully warmed up about half-way through it. Checked this through the hidden ODB function in the dash.


Edited by camrydriver111 (11/08/14 03:02 PM)

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#3533107 - 11/08/14 05:27 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Update.

I've got about 8000 km on the oil. The car didn't burn any oil in that time. The level seems to be the same as when I filled it up. I've done the valve cover gasket and VANOS seals on the engine as well. The engine is clean with no sludge. Would you change the oil earlier after doing a valve cover/VANOS job due to possibility of contaminants being introduced or is that just being OCD?

What would be a good OCI for Castrol Edge 5W40? I was initially planning on doing 10,000 km OCI but winter is coming up and I don't feel like changing the oil in the winter. I also don't want to needlessly change it too soon. The factory interval is 25,000 km, which most people agree is too long, so I was thinking about doing half of that 12,500 km. I do 95% city driving though. My commute is 10 km long. The car is fully warmed up about half-way through it. Checked this through the hidden ODB function in the dash.

I would move to M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40. They are better for winter, plus much better overall then Castrol 5W40.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3534746 - 11/10/14 02:45 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Pesca Offline


Registered: 05/31/08
Posts: 838
Loc: Montreal, Quebec in Canada
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Checked this through the hidden ODB function in the dash.


Sorry to be out of topic, but could explain how you do this?

Thanks.
_________________________
2009 BMW 328Xdrive - GC 0w30 with Mann filter
2002 Miata LS - PP 5w20 with Amsoil filter

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#3535883 - 11/11/14 09:18 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Pesca]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Checked this through the hidden ODB function in the dash.


Sorry to be out of topic, but could explain how you do this?

Thanks.


I don't know about the E90 but on the E46 it works like this:

Quote:
1. Hold Trip Reset while turning ignition key to on position
2. OBC should show "Test"
3. Use Trip Reset to select function 19.0 that unlocks all the features
3. Wait for display to show "Off"
4. Depress Trip Reset for 1/4 second and release it
5. With no delay press Trip Reset several times to select one of the following function s

BMW E46 On-Board Computer (OBC) Hidden Codes
nr example description
1 Car Engine and cluster data
1.0 46nnn Chassis nr/VIN serial number (last 5 digits)
1.1 4nnn K-number
1.2 690236 Cluster Part #
1.3 045210 Coding (04)/diagnosis (52)/bus index (10)
1.4 1200 Week (12)/year of manufacture (2000)
1.5 09_160 Hardware (09) and software # (16.0) of cluster
1.6 Not used
1.7 04__44 CAN-version (04) KI-revision index (44)
2 (test) Cluster System Test - Activates the gauge drivers,
indicators and LEDs to confirm function
3 SI Data
3.0 1098 Used fuel in liters since last SI (Service Inspection)
3.1 0231 Periodic inspection days; elapsed days (since last SI)
4 Momentary Consumption
4.0 0145+ Instant fuel consumption - 0145=14.5 liters/100km
4.1 0018 Instant fuel consumption - 0018=1.8 l/Hour
5 Distance Gone Consumption
5.0 082 Average mileage; 082=8.2 liters/100km
5.1 0536 Calc. km to refuel (momentary distance to go)
6 Fuel Level sensor inputs in liters
6.0 109330+ Fuel level averaged; Left half sensor input=10.9 liters; Right sensor input=33.0 liters
6.1 0439+ Total tank level averaged; vlgs 6.0: 10.9+33.0=43.9 liters
6.2 0442+ Indicated value (44.2) and tank phase
7 Temperature and Speed
7.0 021+ Coolant/Engine temperature (2.1C)
7.1 130 Ambient/Outside temperature - chg met 5 pts. 125/130/135
7.2 + Engine speed / Current RPMs 1/min
7.3 + Vehicle speed / Current Speed in km/hour
8 Input value in HEX form
8.0 1d0+ System voltage ADC-Value Hex code
8.1 26C33C+ ADC Values HG left/HG right
8.2 0000 ADC Value brake degradation sensor (000=o.k.)
8.3 18C ADC Value outside temperature
9 Battery
9.0 140 Battery Voltage - 140 = UB 14.0v
9.1 242013+?
9.2 074_78+?
9.3 0011+?
10 Not used
11 Not used
12 Not used
13 GonG Gong Test
14 Not used
15 Status cluster I/O-ports (bit codes) 0=low; 1=high
1st-belt contact, seat belt fastened=0; 2) ignition lock contact, key inserted=0; 3) door contact, door open=0; 4) clock button pressed=0; 5) SI reset=0, for reset=0; 6) EGS transmission failure=0
Status Digital Outputs (bits) 0=inactive, 1=active
1) Gong output; 2) Brake warning lamp; 3) Low fuel warning lamp; 4) EGA lamp; 5) seat belt lamp; 6) manipulation dot
16 Not used
17 Not used
18 Not used
19 Lock Status; unlocks functions in range 3-18
19.0 L-On/L-Off Unlock: press button when "L-Off"
20 Not used
21 Software Reset; reset OBC settings
00 End of test


So you hold the button so it says test, then press it until you get number 19 to unlock it, then press it until you get number 7 to check coolant temp.

It's great for diagnosing cooling system problems. On the E46 the temp gauge is actually buffered so it will read 12 o-clock when the coolant is around ~75 celcius, but the coolant is fully warmed up at ~95 degrees (thermostat opens).


Edited by camrydriver111 (11/11/14 09:33 PM)

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#3535902 - 11/11/14 09:38 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I would move to M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40. They are better for winter, plus much better overall then Castrol 5W40.


It is, but the 5W40 was so cheap I initially bought enough for a 2nd change.

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#3535918 - 11/11/14 09:52 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Checked this through the hidden ODB function in the dash.


Sorry to be out of topic, but could explain how you do this?

Thanks.


I don't know about the E90 but on the E46 it works like this:

Quote:
1. Hold Trip Reset while turning ignition key to on position
2. OBC should show "Test"
3. Use Trip Reset to select function 19.0 that unlocks all the features
3. Wait for display to show "Off"
4. Depress Trip Reset for 1/4 second and release it
5. With no delay press Trip Reset several times to select one of the following function s

BMW E46 On-Board Computer (OBC) Hidden Codes
nr example description
1 Car Engine and cluster data
1.0 46nnn Chassis nr/VIN serial number (last 5 digits)
1.1 4nnn K-number
1.2 690236 Cluster Part #
1.3 045210 Coding (04)/diagnosis (52)/bus index (10)
1.4 1200 Week (12)/year of manufacture (2000)
1.5 09_160 Hardware (09) and software # (16.0) of cluster
1.6 Not used
1.7 04__44 CAN-version (04) KI-revision index (44)
2 (test) Cluster System Test - Activates the gauge drivers,
indicators and LEDs to confirm function
3 SI Data
3.0 1098 Used fuel in liters since last SI (Service Inspection)
3.1 0231 Periodic inspection days; elapsed days (since last SI)
4 Momentary Consumption
4.0 0145+ Instant fuel consumption - 0145=14.5 liters/100km
4.1 0018 Instant fuel consumption - 0018=1.8 l/Hour
5 Distance Gone Consumption
5.0 082 Average mileage; 082=8.2 liters/100km
5.1 0536 Calc. km to refuel (momentary distance to go)
6 Fuel Level sensor inputs in liters
6.0 109330+ Fuel level averaged; Left half sensor input=10.9 liters; Right sensor input=33.0 liters
6.1 0439+ Total tank level averaged; vlgs 6.0: 10.9+33.0=43.9 liters
6.2 0442+ Indicated value (44.2) and tank phase
7 Temperature and Speed
7.0 021+ Coolant/Engine temperature (2.1C)
7.1 130 Ambient/Outside temperature - chg met 5 pts. 125/130/135
7.2 + Engine speed / Current RPMs 1/min
7.3 + Vehicle speed / Current Speed in km/hour
8 Input value in HEX form
8.0 1d0+ System voltage ADC-Value Hex code
8.1 26C33C+ ADC Values HG left/HG right
8.2 0000 ADC Value brake degradation sensor (000=o.k.)
8.3 18C ADC Value outside temperature
9 Battery
9.0 140 Battery Voltage - 140 = UB 14.0v
9.1 242013+?
9.2 074_78+?
9.3 0011+?
10 Not used
11 Not used
12 Not used
13 GonG Gong Test
14 Not used
15 Status cluster I/O-ports (bit codes) 0=low; 1=high
1st-belt contact, seat belt fastened=0; 2) ignition lock contact, key inserted=0; 3) door contact, door open=0; 4) clock button pressed=0; 5) SI reset=0, for reset=0; 6) EGS transmission failure=0
Status Digital Outputs (bits) 0=inactive, 1=active
1) Gong output; 2) Brake warning lamp; 3) Low fuel warning lamp; 4) EGA lamp; 5) seat belt lamp; 6) manipulation dot
16 Not used
17 Not used
18 Not used
19 Lock Status; unlocks functions in range 3-18
19.0 L-On/L-Off Unlock: press button when "L-Off"
20 Not used
21 Software Reset; reset OBC settings
00 End of test


So you hold the button so it says test, then press it until you get number 19 to unlock it, then press it until you get number 7 to check coolant temp.

It's great for diagnosing cooling system problems. On the E46 the temp gauge is actually buffered so it will read 12 o-clock when the coolant is around ~75 celcius, but the coolant is fully warmed up at ~95 degrees (thermostat opens).

I will never understand why BMW's as "ultimate Driving Machines" stop using coolant gauge and oil dipstick? I just cannot understand that that saves so much money.
I love bimmers, that is car that I first fell in love. I am on the market now to by AWD sport sedan, and I think I will buy A4 (probably S4) just because there is coolant gauge and place to install oil dipstick.
If they are building ultimate driving machine, I would think that audience is someone that likes to do some stuff with the car, or they also started to target soccer mom's primarily?


Edited by edyvw (11/11/14 09:53 PM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3535948 - 11/11/14 10:49 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11756
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
It is, but the 5W40 was so cheap I initially bought enough for a 2nd change.

Now that the Castrol 0w-40 is available in jugs in Canada, watch for specials. It'll tend to drop as low as other Castrol grades. Getting the M1 0w-40 at a good price will be a little more challenging.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3536012 - 11/12/14 03:52 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
weasley Offline


Registered: 03/13/13
Posts: 134
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I will never understand why BMW's as "ultimate Driving Machines" stop using coolant gauge and oil dipstick?


Because 99% of the people that buy them don't know or care about these things. Over the years we have seen the disappearance of voltmeters, oil pressure gauges, oil temperature gauges, ammeters and so on. This is stuff you really don't need to know about in order to drive the car. It doesn't mean these things are ignored - the ECU is constantly monitoring them and if any parameter becomes an issue it will warn you via the dashboard display. The same goes for coolant temperature gauges.

You may or may not know that for many years, temperature gauges have been mostly decorative. They don't tell you a temperature, they are an "everything is OK" gauge, that shows a steady, mid-range value regardless of the real temperature. Only if the temp is above or below certain values will the gauge do anything different. This is the same as having a warning light or message on the dashboard, so simply remove the gauge, save some money, reduce the data input load on the driver and let the ECU deal with it.

I had a 2007 BMW 130i for 3 years. At first I noticed the missing coolant gauge and dipstick. Then I forgot about it and it never once caused any problem. The ECU limits revs when cold, plus I am somewhat mechanically-sympathetic, so no issue there. The engine never overheated, so no issue there. The oil level can be interrogated through the dashboard so you can top up as required. You rely on a sender and gauge for the fuel - do you miss dipping for level on that? And if you take the "I never rely on gauges and sensors" approach, then never get on a passenger aircraft.
_________________________
2013 Audi A1 Sportback 1.4 TFSi Sport
2012 Skoda Yeti SE 2.0 TDi 4x4
1997 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat

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#3536187 - 11/12/14 10:14 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: weasley]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I will never understand why BMW's as "ultimate Driving Machines" stop using coolant gauge and oil dipstick?


Because 99% of the people that buy them don't know or care about these things. Over the years we have seen the disappearance of voltmeters, oil pressure gauges, oil temperature gauges, ammeters and so on. This is stuff you really don't need to know about in order to drive the car. It doesn't mean these things are ignored - the ECU is constantly monitoring them and if any parameter becomes an issue it will warn you via the dashboard display. The same goes for coolant temperature gauges.

You may or may not know that for many years, temperature gauges have been mostly decorative. They don't tell you a temperature, they are an "everything is OK" gauge, that shows a steady, mid-range value regardless of the real temperature. Only if the temp is above or below certain values will the gauge do anything different. This is the same as having a warning light or message on the dashboard, so simply remove the gauge, save some money, reduce the data input load on the driver and let the ECU deal with it.

I had a 2007 BMW 130i for 3 years. At first I noticed the missing coolant gauge and dipstick. Then I forgot about it and it never once caused any problem. The ECU limits revs when cold, plus I am somewhat mechanically-sympathetic, so no issue there. The engine never overheated, so no issue there. The oil level can be interrogated through the dashboard so you can top up as required. You rely on a sender and gauge for the fuel - do you miss dipping for level on that? And if you take the "I never rely on gauges and sensors" approach, then never get on a passenger aircraft.

You see for me oildipstick is important bcs. i do not want to drive 20min before iDrive tells me everything is OK. As far as I heard BMW did not built sensor that cannot break? Tell me if I am wrong. Last time I checked oildipstick does not have electrical sensor.
Also, coolant gauge does not tell you exact temp of every part of the engine, but IT WILL TELL YOU IF water pump goes away, or thermostat gets stuck (and water pump is something that BMW had issues with for years).
Do I need to know oil temp? Yes, actually I do. Kudos to BMW for installing oil temp gauge, now they need to figure out coolant gauge they forgot in E46 as well as oil dipstick.
In the end, what is next? Driverless ultimate driving machine?
_________________________
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11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3536598 - 11/12/14 07:03 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1332
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I will never understand why BMW's as "ultimate Driving Machines" stop using coolant gauge and oil dipstick?


Because 99% of the people that buy them don't know or care about these things. Over the years we have seen the disappearance of voltmeters, oil pressure gauges, oil temperature gauges, ammeters and so on. This is stuff you really don't need to know about in order to drive the car. It doesn't mean these things are ignored - the ECU is constantly monitoring them and if any parameter becomes an issue it will warn you via the dashboard display. The same goes for coolant temperature gauges.

You may or may not know that for many years, temperature gauges have been mostly decorative. They don't tell you a temperature, they are an "everything is OK" gauge, that shows a steady, mid-range value regardless of the real temperature. Only if the temp is above or below certain values will the gauge do anything different. This is the same as having a warning light or message on the dashboard, so simply remove the gauge, save some money, reduce the data input load on the driver and let the ECU deal with it.

I had a 2007 BMW 130i for 3 years. At first I noticed the missing coolant gauge and dipstick. Then I forgot about it and it never once caused any problem. The ECU limits revs when cold, plus I am somewhat mechanically-sympathetic, so no issue there. The engine never overheated, so no issue there. The oil level can be interrogated through the dashboard so you can top up as required. You rely on a sender and gauge for the fuel - do you miss dipping for level on that? And if you take the "I never rely on gauges and sensors" approach, then never get on a passenger aircraft.

You see for me oildipstick is important bcs. i do not want to drive 20min before iDrive tells me everything is OK. As far as I heard BMW did not built sensor that cannot break? Tell me if I am wrong. Last time I checked oildipstick does not have electrical sensor.
Also, coolant gauge does not tell you exact temp of every part of the engine, but IT WILL TELL YOU IF water pump goes away, or thermostat gets stuck (and water pump is something that BMW had issues with for years).
Do I need to know oil temp? Yes, actually I do. Kudos to BMW for installing oil temp gauge, now they need to figure out coolant gauge they forgot in E46 as well as oil dipstick.
In the end, what is next? Driverless ultimate driving machine?


The coolant gauge in the E46 was buffered as well. Since about '06 BMW'S go into limp mode if the water pump goes out and will give you a warning prior to actual failure.

At least the turbo cars have an oil temp gauge.
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3536691 - 11/12/14 08:50 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I will never understand why BMW's as "ultimate Driving Machines" stop using coolant gauge and oil dipstick?


Because 99% of the people that buy them don't know or care about these things. Over the years we have seen the disappearance of voltmeters, oil pressure gauges, oil temperature gauges, ammeters and so on. This is stuff you really don't need to know about in order to drive the car. It doesn't mean these things are ignored - the ECU is constantly monitoring them and if any parameter becomes an issue it will warn you via the dashboard display. The same goes for coolant temperature gauges.

You may or may not know that for many years, temperature gauges have been mostly decorative. They don't tell you a temperature, they are an "everything is OK" gauge, that shows a steady, mid-range value regardless of the real temperature. Only if the temp is above or below certain values will the gauge do anything different. This is the same as having a warning light or message on the dashboard, so simply remove the gauge, save some money, reduce the data input load on the driver and let the ECU deal with it.

I had a 2007 BMW 130i for 3 years. At first I noticed the missing coolant gauge and dipstick. Then I forgot about it and it never once caused any problem. The ECU limits revs when cold, plus I am somewhat mechanically-sympathetic, so no issue there. The engine never overheated, so no issue there. The oil level can be interrogated through the dashboard so you can top up as required. You rely on a sender and gauge for the fuel - do you miss dipping for level on that? And if you take the "I never rely on gauges and sensors" approach, then never get on a passenger aircraft.

You see for me oildipstick is important bcs. i do not want to drive 20min before iDrive tells me everything is OK. As far as I heard BMW did not built sensor that cannot break? Tell me if I am wrong. Last time I checked oildipstick does not have electrical sensor.
Also, coolant gauge does not tell you exact temp of every part of the engine, but IT WILL TELL YOU IF water pump goes away, or thermostat gets stuck (and water pump is something that BMW had issues with for years).
Do I need to know oil temp? Yes, actually I do. Kudos to BMW for installing oil temp gauge, now they need to figure out coolant gauge they forgot in E46 as well as oil dipstick.
In the end, what is next? Driverless ultimate driving machine?


The coolant gauge in the E46 was buffered as well. Since about '06 BMW'S go into limp mode if the water pump goes out and will give you a warning prior to actual failure.

At least the turbo cars have an oil temp gauge.

Yeah, but my point is I do not want to drive Play Station, but a car. You know, I wake up every Sunday, open the hood, check oil, lick oil dipstick smile check washer fluid, pressure in tires. Now, if I did not what to do it, I would buy f...... Lexus.
That is why I will buy Audi, since it seems it is more driving car now than BMW.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3536731 - 11/12/14 09:37 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1635
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: edyvw

That is why I will buy Audi, since it seems it is more driving car now than BMW.


Not even close.....

A dipstick doesn't make a car a "driver's car."

Blistering performance and consummate engineering does.
_________________________
'04 Mazda RX8 5W30 NAPA Syn
'10 &'11 Camry Edge 0W-20
'11 Landcruiser 5W20 PU
'13 BMW 550IX BMW 5W30
'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
'13 BMW M6 BMW 5W30

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#3536778 - 11/12/14 10:41 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: SilverC6]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: edyvw

That is why I will buy Audi, since it seems it is more driving car now than BMW.


Not even close.....

A dipstick doesn't make a car a "driver's car."

Blistering performance and consummate engineering does.

Agree! However as I said, I was always biggest fan of BMW, but
1. I cannot hide fact that for example A6 is some 500+lbs lighter then BMW.
2. That A6 as a package is more complete car.

Granted:
BMW has engine pushed more behind axle, and that it is inline 6 if we are talking about 6-cyl engines.
But, when I see numbers, it seems that now Audi's are constantly ahead. I recently had opportunity too drive for several days 535i xDrive, A4, 328i xDrive. While I think 3 series is definitely ahead of A4, 5-series leaves me disappointed. There is no blistering performance, while A6 3.0T really feels powerful and light weighted.
I always considered Audi more expensive VW. However I think they get their stuff together, while BMW has issues within family, of people who are traditionalists and people who are pushing for different consumers.
I agree oil dipstick does not make car more or less driver oriented, but someone who is DYI guy? Those small stuff are just too irritating.
My perfect BMW right now?
Take out GPS, that [censored] eco whatever that illuminates different colors that show current consumption, take out backup camera, just leave SAT radio for long trips. Give me coolant temp, oil temp, oil dipstick and 3.0 liter turbo, and I will immediately buy that car.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3537008 - 11/13/14 10:49 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 378
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
Edy , if performance and handling are your priorities then consider Maserati Ghibli. It's probably best sport saloon car of today. It will cost more to maintain though, but it will have better resale value also. Then there is also a cool factor involved when driving an Maserati.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

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#3537038 - 11/13/14 11:32 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1635
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Agree! However as I said, I was always biggest fan of BMW, but
1. I cannot hide fact that for example A6 is some 500+lbs lighter then BMW.
2. That A6 as a package is more complete car.

Granted:
BMW has engine pushed more behind axle, and that it is inline 6 if we are talking about 6-cyl engines.
But, when I see numbers, it seems that now Audi's are constantly ahead. I recently had opportunity too drive for several days 535i xDrive, A4, 328i xDrive. While I think 3 series is definitely ahead of A4, 5-series leaves me disappointed. There is no blistering performance, while A6 3.0T really feels powerful and light weighted.
I always considered Audi more expensive VW. However I think they get their stuff together, while BMW has issues within family, of people who are traditionalists and people who are pushing for different consumers.
I agree oil dipstick does not make car more or less driver oriented, but someone who is DYI guy? Those small stuff are just too irritating.
My perfect BMW right now?
Take out GPS, that [censored] eco whatever that illuminates different colors that show current consumption, take out backup camera, just leave SAT radio for long trips. Give me coolant temp, oil temp, oil dipstick and 3.0 liter turbo, and I will immediately buy that car.



Take a BMW M4 Coupe out and let me know what you think.

And if you need something with more doors, my wife's BMW 550IX with the M option does a nice job too.

And then there is the M6 to consider.

It will leave you overwhelmed and unable to spell Aodui, Auodi, Au.... you get my point.
_________________________
'04 Mazda RX8 5W30 NAPA Syn
'10 &'11 Camry Edge 0W-20
'11 Landcruiser 5W20 PU
'13 BMW 550IX BMW 5W30
'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
'13 BMW M6 BMW 5W30

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#3537049 - 11/13/14 11:42 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: SilverC6]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Agree! However as I said, I was always biggest fan of BMW, but
1. I cannot hide fact that for example A6 is some 500+lbs lighter then BMW.
2. That A6 as a package is more complete car.

Granted:
BMW has engine pushed more behind axle, and that it is inline 6 if we are talking about 6-cyl engines.
But, when I see numbers, it seems that now Audi's are constantly ahead. I recently had opportunity too drive for several days 535i xDrive, A4, 328i xDrive. While I think 3 series is definitely ahead of A4, 5-series leaves me disappointed. There is no blistering performance, while A6 3.0T really feels powerful and light weighted.
I always considered Audi more expensive VW. However I think they get their stuff together, while BMW has issues within family, of people who are traditionalists and people who are pushing for different consumers.
I agree oil dipstick does not make car more or less driver oriented, but someone who is DYI guy? Those small stuff are just too irritating.
My perfect BMW right now?
Take out GPS, that [censored] eco whatever that illuminates different colors that show current consumption, take out backup camera, just leave SAT radio for long trips. Give me coolant temp, oil temp, oil dipstick and 3.0 liter turbo, and I will immediately buy that car.



Take a BMW M4 Coupe out and let me know what you think.

And if you need something with more doors, my wife's BMW 550IX with the M option does a nice job too.

And then there is the M6 to consider.

It will leave you overwhelmed and unable to spell Aodui, Auodi, Au.... you get my point.

BMW did not became famous by making big V8 twinturbo engines, but making 2002ti, E30 etc.
You missing my point. I like BMW more then Audi, but they lost that nitche, where you buy small 3 series and you get clearly much more sportier car then competition.
BMW 550i xDrive? Seriously.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3537115 - 11/13/14 12:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
drtyler Offline


Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 88
Loc: Georgia
Well the base A6 has four cylinder, front wheel drive, and CVT. That sounds more like an Altima than an Audi.



Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Agree! However as I said, I was always biggest fan of BMW, but
1. I cannot hide fact that for example A6 is some 500+lbs lighter then BMW.
2. That A6 as a package is more complete car.

Granted:
BMW has engine pushed more behind axle, and that it is inline 6 if we are talking about 6-cyl engines.
But, when I see numbers, it seems that now Audi's are constantly ahead. I recently had opportunity too drive for several days 535i xDrive, A4, 328i xDrive. While I think 3 series is definitely ahead of A4, 5-series leaves me disappointed. There is no blistering performance, while A6 3.0T really feels powerful and light weighted.
I always considered Audi more expensive VW. However I think they get their stuff together, while BMW has issues within family, of people who are traditionalists and people who are pushing for different consumers.
I agree oil dipstick does not make car more or less driver oriented, but someone who is DYI guy? Those small stuff are just too irritating.
My perfect BMW right now?
Take out GPS, that [censored] eco whatever that illuminates different colors that show current consumption, take out backup camera, just leave SAT radio for long trips. Give me coolant temp, oil temp, oil dipstick and 3.0 liter turbo, and I will immediately buy that car.



Take a BMW M4 Coupe out and let me know what you think.

And if you need something with more doors, my wife's BMW 550IX with the M option does a nice job too.

And then there is the M6 to consider.

It will leave you overwhelmed and unable to spell Aodui, Auodi, Au.... you get my point.

BMW did not became famous by making big V8 twinturbo engines, but making 2002ti, E30 etc.
You missing my point. I like BMW more then Audi, but they lost that nitche, where you buy small 3 series and you get clearly much more sportier car then competition.
BMW 550i xDrive? Seriously.

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#3537140 - 11/13/14 01:26 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 378
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
How about a 1 series coupe. Are they available in NA ? Very nice car, best BMW since e30 IMO.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

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#3537288 - 11/13/14 04:58 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: chrisri]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: chrisri
How about a 1 series coupe. Are they available in NA ? Very nice car, best BMW since e30 IMO.

That is not an option for me as primary car. Needs to have AWD (lot's of skiing, driving in blizzards on curvy roads etc).
Once I make more money, 235i or something like that as second car, yes.
Point is, BMW was always the one. No they are just trying to make too much money everywhere.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3537290 - 11/13/14 05:03 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: drtyler]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: drtyler
Well the base A6 has four cylinder, front wheel drive, and CVT. That sounds more like an Altima than an Audi.



Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Agree! However as I said, I was always biggest fan of BMW, but
1. I cannot hide fact that for example A6 is some 500+lbs lighter then BMW.
2. That A6 as a package is more complete car.

Granted:
BMW has engine pushed more behind axle, and that it is inline 6 if we are talking about 6-cyl engines.
But, when I see numbers, it seems that now Audi's are constantly ahead. I recently had opportunity too drive for several days 535i xDrive, A4, 328i xDrive. While I think 3 series is definitely ahead of A4, 5-series leaves me disappointed. There is no blistering performance, while A6 3.0T really feels powerful and light weighted.
I always considered Audi more expensive VW. However I think they get their stuff together, while BMW has issues within family, of people who are traditionalists and people who are pushing for different consumers.
I agree oil dipstick does not make car more or less driver oriented, but someone who is DYI guy? Those small stuff are just too irritating.
My perfect BMW right now?
Take out GPS, that [censored] eco whatever that illuminates different colors that show current consumption, take out backup camera, just leave SAT radio for long trips. Give me coolant temp, oil temp, oil dipstick and 3.0 liter turbo, and I will immediately buy that car.



Take a BMW M4 Coupe out and let me know what you think.

And if you need something with more doors, my wife's BMW 550IX with the M option does a nice job too.

And then there is the M6 to consider.

It will leave you overwhelmed and unable to spell Aodui, Auodi, Au.... you get my point.

BMW did not became famous by making big V8 twinturbo engines, but making 2002ti, E30 etc.
You missing my point. I like BMW more then Audi, but they lost that nitche, where you buy small 3 series and you get clearly much more sportier car then competition.
BMW 550i xDrive? Seriously.


Yeah, but my point all this time is that BMW allowed itself to go in the same sentence as Audi. I remember Audis and lough when people were trying to point how good they are. When you tell them weight and location of engine they get dumb folded bcs they never thought of that.
And yes, 2.0, CVT all that is fine. Point is why 528i has so much more weight and drives like 7 series not good old 5 series E39!
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3537415 - 11/13/14 07:04 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
SilverC6 Offline


Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 1635
Loc: Southeast
Originally Posted By: edyvw
BMW did not became famous by making big V8 twinturbo engines, but making 2002ti, E30 etc.

You missing my point. I like BMW more then Audi, but they lost that nitche, where you buy small 3 series and you get clearly much more sportier car then competition.

BMW 550i xDrive? Seriously.

These are much different times than when BMW 2002ti's were new and a Porsche 911S with 180 HP was an amazing performer.

The CAFE standards are driving BMW's current engine offerings.

Imagine the R&D money BMW spent moving from normally aspirated V10's and I6's five years ago to the current powerplants.

But the BMW 550ix is a solid GT with the M option and 400 HP.

They're pricey but what isn't these days.




_________________________
'04 Mazda RX8 5W30 NAPA Syn
'10 &'11 Camry Edge 0W-20
'11 Landcruiser 5W20 PU
'13 BMW 550IX BMW 5W30
'08 BMW Z4M Coupe TWS 10W60
'13 BMW M6 BMW 5W30

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#3537519 - 11/13/14 08:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1332
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: chrisri
How about a 1 series coupe. Are they available in NA ? Very nice car, best BMW since e30 IMO.

That is not an option for me as primary car. Needs to have AWD (lot's of skiing, driving in blizzards on curvy roads etc).
Once I make more money, 235i or something like that as second car, yes.
Point is, BMW was always the one. No they are just trying to make too much money everywhere.
The 2-series is falls in-between the E36 & E46. The current 3 series has same interior space as the E39. This is fairly typical of most marquees.


Edited by BMWTurboDzl (11/13/14 08:33 PM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

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#3537874 - 11/14/14 09:38 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: SilverC6]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1158
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SilverC6
Originally Posted By: edyvw
BMW did not became famous by making big V8 twinturbo engines, but making 2002ti, E30 etc.

You missing my point. I like BMW more then Audi, but they lost that nitche, where you buy small 3 series and you get clearly much more sportier car then competition.

BMW 550i xDrive? Seriously.

These are much different times than when BMW 2002ti's were new and a Porsche 911S with 180 HP was an amazing performer.

The CAFE standards are driving BMW's current engine offerings.

Imagine the R&D money BMW spent moving from normally aspirated V10's and I6's five years ago to the current powerplants.

But the BMW 550ix is a solid GT with the M option and 400 HP.

They're pricey but what isn't these days.





I had 550i xDrive for 5 days several weeks ago. My friend is manager at BMW. Anyway, it is superb car, however it is HEAVY! It is 7 series in clothing of 5 series!
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3544391 - 11/21/14 06:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
camrydriver111 Offline


Registered: 07/01/14
Posts: 27
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I would move to M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40. They are better for winter, plus much better overall then Castrol 5W40.


After 9k and 8 months of driving would the 5W40 Castrol lose viscosity and sheer to ~5W30 and have better cold performance than new 5W40?


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#3544652 - 11/22/14 12:44 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 27097
Loc: a prison island
That's a really good question, and I don't think it has really been answered.

SAE admits that cold temperature performance is an area that suffers in use, and what you have at the end of an OCI is definitely not what you started with...

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