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#3421077 - 07/10/14 06:41 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9573
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
What's to be gained?
It's not just about improved fuel economy, it's about optimized lubrication. It's unfortunate that most cars aren't equipped with oil gauges which tell's the whole story. Even the lightest 0W-20 is way heavier than optimum until you can get your oil temp's up to at least 75C. And even in a mild winter, those that have gauges are surprised at how infrequently oil temp's hit a low normal temp'. Running a 40 grade oil you need oil temp's at the high end of normal before your oil pump is even out of my-pass mode , forget about being even close to an optimum viscosity. All that excess viscosity reserve is to deal with very high oil temp's that never occurs unless you've got the throttle mashed 80% of the time which is virtually impossible in most regions of the world outside of a race track.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421213 - 07/10/14 08:35 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: CATERHAM]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1085
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.

What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3421236 - 07/10/14 08:57 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: CATERHAM]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11606
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Most BMWs due to their exposed finned ali' sumps have a hard time generating even low normal oil temp's of 80C in a Cdn winter. I've run M1 0W-20 in the winter in my Bimmer for that very reason.

The Audi would have been pretty safe in that regard, too. That thing could appropriately moderate oil temperatures.

kschan: I think it's possible to do, given you spec chart, which is much the same as what Audi did, in fact almost identical when it comes to the temperature ranges. It notes that you can use 15w-40 down to -20 C. My Audi's manual said the same thing and I was skeptical. Needless to say, I didn't try. I don't like seasonal oil changes, and given that your vehicle doesn't specially call for an approved lube, you have a few choices.

You could use 15w-40 in the summer and ILSAC 5w-30 or 10w-30 in the winter. You could probably get away with using the latter two year round, but watch consumption and pressure.

You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40. At least you're getting a better VI than a 10w-30 or 15w-40 and won't have to mess around with seasonal changes. Given that your engine doesn't specially call for approved lubes, you're also free to experiment with reasonable facsimiles such as Delvac 1, RP 0w-40, and so forth.

I know that a good 0w-20 could likely work well in the winter, particularly a cold one. I just don't know how long I'd want to stretch that into the summer or how safe it would be for how long, and without oil pressure gauges and relevant specifications, it would be hard to even begin to guess.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3421330 - 07/10/14 10:13 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 3949
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.



What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3421350 - 07/10/14 10:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1085
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.



What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.

15-20min to see 75-80 in summer? I reached few days ago with 335i xDrive full oil temp in 4 miles of city driving, and this is not very urban city, so there was no stop and go.
What you talking about? As soon as oil reached optimal temp, rpms were in red line.
If you are buying Toyota Camry, i could agree with X20.
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.


Good for him!
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3421403 - 07/11/14 12:17 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11606
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.

At least of the time of writing, he was not using an ILSAC rated 0w-20. Red Line and the like are essentially cheating, if you ask me.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3421518 - 07/11/14 07:57 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2657
Loc: Upper Midwest
Even when the manual says you can.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3421544 - 07/11/14 08:33 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11606
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

I don't know how I missed that. I'm going to call you on that one. You're saying that the majority of your increased fuel consumption in winter is due to thick fluids, as opposed to longer warm ups, worse rolling resistance in snow, winter fuel, and so forth? How short are the trips you take?
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3421546 - 07/11/14 08:34 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25915
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3421547 - 07/11/14 08:34 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11606
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even when the manual says you can.

Sometimes, the warning about extra oil consumption and/or fast speeds is printed in a different spot, too. Usually, there is some sort of warning about using 20 grades in the things. The Audi had wording to not panic about the ambient temperature going up, but to monitor the oil level more closely.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3421579 - 07/11/14 09:20 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26405
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream


Maybe you should read the oil article by Dr. Hass. He runs 0W20 in his Ferrari Maranello without issue.


He also:

A) short trips the car
B) does NOT beat on it
C) has the money to replace the engine if he nukes it.

Since I do NOT have a spare $20,000 kicking around to replace the engine in my M5, I'm certainly one of the people not willing to experiment with viscosity choices much thinner than specified by the OEM. Particularly given that nothing of detriment is happening by running the 0w-40 year round. And fuel consumption, given how I drive the thing, well, my right foot has a far greater impact on the amount of gas I go through than the grade of oil in the pan.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

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#3421581 - 07/11/14 09:21 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1085
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even when the manual says you can.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Buying BMW and driving it the way it suppose to be driven on x20 oil? Yeah right.
VW/Audi, Opel (GM) etc, wrote in their manuals that consumption of 1ltr of oil in 1,000km is acceptable rate, and that is if you use recommended oil. So would you say everything is normal because it says in the book?
Using such thin oil in older car means recipe for dirty garage floor after you turn of your car.
And yes, I think that using such thin oil in BMW is ridiculous.
My recipe is sticking to xW40 or very thick xW30 oils in Euro sled.


Edited by edyvw (07/11/14 09:23 AM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3421584 - 07/11/14 09:21 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26405
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.



Which is EXACTLY what they did when they started spec'ing LL-98 , LL-01....etc. BMW Synthetic 5w-30 (and its equivalents) replaced that chart.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
06 Charger R/T

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#3421923 - 07/11/14 05:23 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 3949
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

I don't know how I missed that. I'm going to call you on that one. You're saying that the majority of your increased fuel consumption in winter is due to thick fluids, as opposed to longer warm ups, worse rolling resistance in snow, winter fuel, and so forth? How short are the trips you take?


You're right! Those are all factors as well! But I take the same length of trips in the winter as summer
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3422030 - 07/11/14 07:11 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: OVERKILL]
sprintman Offline


Registered: 05/27/02
Posts: 11006
Loc: Canberra ACT Australia
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Garak
You could grab an approved lube or reasonable facsimile thereof. That would include the real BMW approved A3/B4 type lubes such as GC (and its brothers) or M1 0w-40.

That's right. If something like M1 0w-40 existed when that BMW chart was created, that whole gamut of different oil grades and temperatures could have been replaced by this one oil.



Which is EXACTLY what they did when they started spec'ing LL-98 , LL-01....etc. BMW Synthetic 5w-30 (and its equivalents) replaced that chart.


No BMW 5W30 here and not available in most countries. One to ponder....

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