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#3420485 - 07/10/14 09:16 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Quattro Pete]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Upper Midwest
I put in the usual 0W-40 mainly because that is what I had.

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: kschachn
I wanted to use 0W-20 in my BMW this past winter (kept outside in extreme northern Wisconsin and mainly short-tripped), but noooo.... I got shot down on here like I was advocating smallpox whistle
So what did you use instead, and did it cause you problems?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3420547 - 07/10/14 10:17 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
Garak Online   content


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11643
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F

I wouldn't try it in a diesel, for one. wink

Seriously, I would be cautious with the European vehicles that do call for a higher HTHS, and given the oil temperatures of the G37, summer or winter (and given that the oil pan is well shielded from the elements), I'd not want to be experimenting with an ILSAC 20 if i were doing long tripping in the winter.

The oil temperature in a G37 will never be 130 F after an hour's operation, and I don't care how cold it is outside. Heck, I changed oil in the thing on one of the coldest days of the year, and after driving 8 miles in -34 C, I could barely touch the filter, and I've done bare handed oil changes with taxis that ran all day in 34 C weather in August. Oil temperatures in these 3.7 L engines customarily run north of 212 F even in "normal" driving.

If someone wishes to run a 0w-20 in that for anything aside from extremely short tripping, they can try it on their own G37. Heck, even the Audi 200's oil temperature, with extremely good oil cooling and allowing a 5w-20 in the winter, would have exceeded 130 F after an hour's drive in the winter. On the flip side, it would never exceed about 200 F, no matter how hard I pushed it even in extreme heat.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3420569 - 07/10/14 10:38 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26449
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
A 40 weight oil is really not needed in a Canadian Winter. Yes a 0W40 will start up just fine at any temp, but if you have an oil temp gauge you will see that the oil will never approach the same temp it does in the summer. That 40 weight will cost you in MPG.

I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,


The oil cooler on my M5 is also an oil heater. I've got my oil temp up to "regular" during the winter, it just takes a lot longer to get there.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
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#3420570 - 07/10/14 10:39 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 26449
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: Garak

I'd be cautious in some vehicles,


Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F


I can get mine up to 180-190F if I drive it long enough. My issue last winter was the short tripping didn't get it much above 150-170F. And that is with a 7L sump.
_________________________
Network Engineer
02 Expedition
01 BMW ///M5
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#3420582 - 07/10/14 10:58 AM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Bluestream]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1092
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Originally Posted By: Garak

I'd be cautious in some vehicles,


Really? Which vehicles? They use 0W20 year round in Texas, I think its good for Canadian Winters. Have you ever checked your oil temp in winter after driving for an hour? Its very low, maybe 130F

LOL, in ANY European car after 10 minutes you would have 3rd degree burn touching filter.
I am driving car when go to ski, anywhere from 25 degrees to -30 degrees. On -30, if it is flat, not to mention uphill, coolant temp will be at 190 in about 5min, and considering that car has coolant/oil heat exchanger, very soon oil will reach same temp.
In the city, in very short distances, takes more time, but I would still say in about 10min coolant is at 190, and oil will get there very soon.
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420818 - 07/10/14 02:25 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: Garak]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9597
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
I will argue that most any car can use a 0W20 in the Canadian winter, and the oil will still be thicker that a 40 weight would be in the summer,

I'd be cautious in some vehicles, but generally speaking, especially with short tripping, there should be no issues. If I were driving my F-150 (or G for that matter) just a mile at a time in the winter from a cold start, I cannot see there being any problems with a 0w-20.

Most BMWs due to their exposed finned ali' sumps have a hard time generating even low normal oil temp's of 80C in a Cdn winter. I've run M1 0W-20 in the winter in my Bimmer for that very reason.
But unless trips are quite short, under 20 minutes or you've got oil gauges to monitor things, just going with M1 AFE 0W-30 is probably the best choice. Heck it's MRV is lower than most 0W-20s anyway and it is heavy enough to be used used year round in a 2005 325. Or for non extremely cold winters and year round use I'd suggest any syn 5W-30, which is more than viscose enough even for spirited street driving on the hottest summer days.

Regarding LL-01 BMW approved oils, I think the list is too limited in terms of available oils choices. The BMW LL-01 FE 0W-30 (HTHSV 3.0cP) isn't even available here, but if you're still under warranty here in Canada the BMW 5W-30 at $8.41 is hard to beat, cheaper than M1 0W-40 even on sale.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3420844 - 07/10/14 02:39 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?

_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3420869 - 07/10/14 02:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1092
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?


That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420906 - 07/10/14 03:32 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yes it probably does. What was your reasoning for using 40-weight in winter though, and why do you always stick with thicker oils? Do they protect better?

Trip length isn't accounted for in that chart, only ambient.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 224K

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#3420934 - 07/10/14 03:59 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: kschachn]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1092
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yes it probably does. What was your reasoning for using 40-weight in winter though, and why do you always stick with thicker oils? Do they protect better?

Trip length isn't accounted for in that chart, only ambient.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.

When that chart was made, it was very hard, almost impossible to find 0W20 (and still is) or even 5W30 oil in Europe. Yes, all BMW's, VW's, Opel's etc had that chart.
Second, even BMW dealerships always used in E30's 15W40 oil regardless of season, while with introduction of 24V engines they started to use 10W40 and in mid 90's 5W40.
Even today, in Europe there is debate about 5W30 oils (which proved as disastrous for some diesel engines).
Almost all European cars have heat exchanger, and my only concern is cold flow, meaning at the start.
That is why I used here always x40 or the heaviest x30 oils such as GC or now M1 ESP (12.2cst).
Also, driving distance is not of concern to me, as long as oil has very good cold start flow. In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.
But, all my cars made more then 200,000 miles. I sold one Opel with around 320,000 miles.
So yes, I am more concerned with protection.
I started to use 5W30 ESP to address deposit issues in VW DI engine.
However, I choose M1 ESP because it has best pour point among readily available VW 504.00/507.00 oils (-45c), and it is the thickest one on market.
Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?
So x20 oils? If you ask me, not in Euro car under any circumstances (Volvo excluded or some others calling for thinner oils).
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3420992 - 07/10/14 05:11 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9597
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
0W20 oil in my dictionary does not exist, regardless how short distance is and how cold it is.

What do you think the problem would be? My BMW calls out a 20-weight BTW, up to 20 degrees. But that was the 20-weight of the time, surely TGMO 0W-20 would be an improvement?


That chart exists in all European manuals.
I owned BMW 325 E30, 325 E36, 520I, 525I E34, and there was always that chart, but used in Bosnian winters 10W40 or 5W40, and those winters are on par with Canadian, while mountains see temps lower then -35 sometimes.
If I plan to keep a car for long time, and I always do, I stick to thicker oils x40, while only in last several years I used x30.
And somehow, all my cars had 200,000 miles or more before they were sold.
You can use 0W20, but is your driving 100% 2-3 miles long?
If I knew that someone used X20 or x30 non Euro spec in BMW, I would never buy that car from that person, just my preference.

Not understanding the concept of operational viscosity is not unusual, but bragging about it just reveals a closed mind.
Fortunately some brighter members are willing to learn something on the subject.

It doesn't apply to this model but the more powerful N20 BMW turbo 4 that is currently spec'd the BMW A3/B4 5W-30 has also the BMW approval of a 0W-20 for not just winter use but year round. Those with an open mind that are interested can check it out below:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3394810/1
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421012 - 07/10/14 05:37 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 3952
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: edyvw
LOL, in ANY European car after 10 minutes you would have 3rd degree burn touching filter.


No, I have a 7 series BMW with a 6.5L sump and finned aluminium pan, and it never get hotter than warm to the touch in winter.


Edited by Bluestream (07/10/14 05:38 PM)
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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#3421013 - 07/10/14 05:38 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: camrydriver111]
bigjl Offline


Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 1704
Loc: London, England
If it doesn't apply to the model being discussed then it is pointless to even mention it surely?

I would never hamper my car with an oil with such narrow operational limits.

What is to be gained?

A 5w30, 5w40 or even 0w40 will work perfectly well in sub zero temperatures.

But will not need changing if temperatures increase.

I have experienced high oil consumption with a BMW diesel engine many years ago on 0w40 that ceased completely on 5w40.

It was run with 5w40 summer and winter and had north of 250k on it when i sold it at 4 1/2 years old. I did only own from 80k onwards so not sure what was used by Vauxhall, it was an Omega with the BMW 2.5diesel lump, probably 10w40 Castrol which was the usual oil for many Vauxhalls back in the 90's
_________________________
06 Clio1.5DCi,133k 6kOCI Shell Extra 5w40
08 Pathfinder 2.5 Dci Sold with 125k
12 Jaguar XJL 3.0 D Luxury 118k 8kOCI Mob 1 ESP 5w30

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#3421047 - 07/10/14 06:10 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: edyvw]
CATERHAM Offline


Registered: 11/18/05
Posts: 9597
Loc: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: edyvw
[quote=kschachn]
In Europe distances are shorter. Before moving here, sometimes I would make at most 2 miles a day! Temp gauge would not even move during winter in such short distances.....

Also, that chart says x20 oil in certain temperature. What if temperature goes from -20 to 60's and you have to make long trip?

Even in the summer an oil temp' will hardly move if you're only driving 2 miles a day. Even in the summer you'll typically need at least 15-20 minutes to see even 75-80C oil temp's so even a light 0W-20 will still be way heavier than necessary.

What happens if the ambient temp' jump to 60F? Well as unlikely as that may be in the dead of winter nothing happens. Ambient oil charts are conservative in that the manufacturer knows oil temp's won't be able get above a certain temperature and higher road speeds actually reduce oil temp's even further.
The bottom line is not ambient temp's (which has more to do with cold starting), but oil temp's or the real bottom line oil pressure. A long road trip could allow oil temp's to rise to normal at 60F but it's highly unlikely that your oil pressure would drop below the minimum required.

I find it quite amusing, particularly with Bimmer owners and of other high performance oriented makes, that they have no problem seeing oil temp's approaching 150C on the race track with a 3.6-4.2cP HTHSV XW-40 motor oil but wouldn't consider a 20 grade oil with oil temp's at even 90C when it's HTHSV is going to be in the 6-7cP range at that oil temp'. It totally defies any sense of logic.
_________________________
74 Lotus Europa 5W-50
86 Porsche 928S TGMO 0W-20 25%/M1 0W-40
96 BMW 328i Idemitsu/TGMO 0W-20 70%/M1 0W-40
94 Caterham 7 Sustina 0W-20 80%/0W-50

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#3421051 - 07/10/14 06:14 PM Re: New To BMW and Synthetics [Re: bigjl]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 3952
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Originally Posted By: bigjl
If it doesn't apply to the model being discussed then it is pointless to even mention it surely?

I would never hamper my car with an oil with such narrow operational limits.

What is to be gained?

A 5w30, 5w40 or even 0w40 will work perfectly well in sub zero temperatures.

But will not need changing if temperatures increase.

I have experienced high oil consumption with a BMW diesel engine many years ago on 0w40 that ceased completely on 5w40.

It was run with 5w40 summer and winter and had north of 250k on it when i sold it at 4 1/2 years old. I did only own from 80k onwards so not sure what was used by Vauxhall, it was an Omega with the BMW 2.5diesel lump, probably 10w40 Castrol which was the usual oil for many Vauxhalls back in the 90's


This is an oil forum, and we are having a discussion so its not pointless.

Quote: What is to be gained?

For one thing, MPG. My gas consumption goes up 40% in the winter and that is mostly due to thick fluids caused by the cols weather.

No offense, but what you call winter in the UK has nothing in common with the weather we have here
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

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