Valve seals, what to do.

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expat

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I noticed yesterday, that after a few minutes at idle my low milage Toyota pick up should puff blue smoke when I pull away.
I guess after 30 years, the valve seals have become hard. No suppize there.

I think this is sorting I would like to address before winter, as I do not have the use of an indoor garage.

My options are.

1) just replace the valve seals.
But on a 22 R engine, this means removing the cyl head bolts. Even if I replace the bolts after adding spacers (to maintain head pressure) I run the risk of blowing a head gasket.
2) Bite the bullet and remove the head. Then I may as well Lap the valves and replace the timing chain at the same time.

I know #2 is the right way to go, I just don't have the gumption to get that far into it right now.

Just sitting here turning options over in my head. Any thoughts guys?
 
Don't touch it. The valve seals won't affect anything other than that little puff. Run it till you have another major problem. Many a ford modular have the same issue and run for another 200k before something kills them.
 
regrettably, 22R does require the removal of head bolts in order to get the rockers off.

I'd typically would do so (valve stem seal replacement) along with a head gasket refresh, but skip the valve lapping part whenever possible. afterall: 30yrs old is a very, very long service life for elastomers on engines where they would harden and becomes brittle.

HM oil will do squat for you in this case. Nothing can "soften" the otherwise already hardened/brittle valve stem seals.


your option (2) will lead to oil burning issues due to higher vacuum (re-lapped valves means stronger vacuum on your top end, which will lead to more oil sucking past your control and compression rings as a result.

Q.
 
What is your oil consumption like?

A VW 2.0 that I work on halved its oil consumption due to leaking valve guide seals by going to a HM oil. Was previously using a quart every 1000 miles.

Another option is to buy a spare cylinder head and rebuild it in your spare time, then just swap heads and do the timing chain components. A bit less downtime for the vehicle at least.
 
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Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
You could try a HM oil...they have seal-conditioners to help rejuvenate hardened seals.


You would be crazy not to try this as well as a new pcv valve.
 
The smoke has just become noticeable.

I have used Maxlife in the last 18 months (it was on sale)
but have to agree that after 30 years, there is only so much a high millage oil can do.

Oil consumption has been OK, I have been using 1 liter per OCI (4-5k)

I will replace the PCV but 'know' that the seals are the real cause of this problem.

The truck has 80k and compression is very good and Even =/- 2 psi
I don't expect wear to be much of an issue.

I guess I will just live with it until the Fall, but it just Bugs me to have 'something that needs doing' on an otherwise very nice truck. (I guess I've had too many Oil Burners in my past to to feel nonchalant about it)
 
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I don't see how the head gasket would be compromised if all you're doing is removing the head bolts. It's not like you're removing the cylinder head and repositioning the gasket. I don't think the head gasket would be disturbed by simply un-torquing the head bolts.
 
Another option and not a bad one IMHO. This would be my choice.
How about a brand new head with cam with a head gasket set. Get new head bolts also.
Take it apart, do a nice piston soak overnight and reassemble.

http://www.toyotatruckengine.com/1985-1995-toyota-22re-and-22r-cylinder-head-new/

Originally Posted By: Merkava
don't see how the head gasket would be compromised if all you're doing is removing the head bolts.

IIRC these use a black teflon coating on the steel gasket, when you let the bolts go it damages the coating and can cause a leak.
It uses the coating to compensate for the dissimilar metal of block/head.
 
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About 10 years ago my 88 Accord started puffing the blue smoke on start up. I have been using some Red Line grp V in the oil since then. (mostly 1 qt. per change) Now 10 years and 30K+ miles later, no blue smoke ever since, no oil consumption either. (164K total miles) You should at least give the 'high mileage' oil treatment a try, esp. if it uses some group V oil to condition the seals.
 
If you are losing oil from the valve seals, sometimes it means the valve guides are worn, and the erratic movement of the valves means the seals will never be able to hold oil.

I would rebuild the head, and while I had the head removed, I would replace the timing components, since they don't cost much, and are probably in less than ideal condition anyway.
 
Whatever I do, I think will have to wait until the Fall.

There is a rumor that a device can be fabricated to compress the valve springs with the rocker gear in place!

If I can find an old head, I will look into the feasibility of this.

Trav, Last night I was looking at this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOYOTA-22R-RE-BR...=item5b01e91d63

I have inquired at the link you posted. but fear shipping might be the Deal Killer. I also wonder if they use Chinese castings?
I have heard of Cams going 'tight' in some of those (warping)

I have dealt with EPN before, and been pleased. and a drive down to Oregon is not really a hardship as I can bring back a few more bits to help pay for the trip.
 
Looks good. I wouldn't know where the other ones castings are made but your right it could be anywhere.
Sure its worth the trip if you can get other bits and pieces. I really like the replacement route these days.

There are less and less good machine shops around, at least around here. The last one i had done they missed a crack between the valves on one cylinder.
The head was scrap but they did all the work to it.
 
Originally Posted By: expat

2) Bite the bullet and remove the head. Then I may as well Lap the valves and replace the timing chain at the same time.

I know #2 is the right way to go, I just don't have the gumption to get that far into it right now.

Just sitting here turning options over in my head. Any thoughts guys?


Simple question. If it's a 'keeper' then a reman or new head, please.

If the head is off anyway it's an easy job at that point. If, and only if it is a long term prospect...
 
With remanufactured heads like you and Trav linked, you always take a risk that there is something or (a few things) wrong with them. For example, how do you know that the valve seals weren't damaged during installation? They sometimes even damage them in the OEM factory.

Start with the valve seals first -- don't fix something that is not broken. Do it now during good weather and long daylight hours.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
With remanufactured heads like you and Trav linked, you always take a risk that there is something or (a few things) wrong with them. For example, how do you know that the valve seals weren't damaged during installation? They sometimes even damage them in the OEM factory.

Start with the valve seals first -- don't fix something that is not broken. Do it now during good weather and long daylight hours.


Perhaps we have been misunderstood. I do not speak for Trav, but here's my opinion.

First, when I buy a reman or a new head and have it prepped by my shop it is as close to perfect as possible. If it's not, then that's on the supplier or me. I do not assume it is bad! If it is then perhaps another supplier is in order?

Second, did you read the OP's first post? He must remove the head bolts. This means you must remove the head and replace the gasket. Once you have the head off, why not do the whole job right if the car is worth keeping?

We do almost all our own work here on our fleet. One thing we ALWAYS try for is better than OEM quality, as I detest doing things twice.

I'm sure Trav does, too. Since we both make our daily bread with vehicles...
 
Originally Posted By: expat
I noticed yesterday, that after a few minutes at idle my low milage Toyota pick up should puff blue smoke when I pull away.
I guess after 30 years, the valve seals have become hard. No suppize there.


Unless it's fouling plugs or using more than a quart in 800-1000 miles, it's not worh fixing.

If the valve seals are intact but just hard, something along the lines of Lubegard or Auto-Rx might soften them up without dissolving them.
 
I've been using the truck quite a bit the last day or two. Not a Hint of smoke??

It seems when the smoke occurs, it's only after a cold start when the engine is not up to normal coolant temp, AND the engine has been idling for a minute or two AND I then pull away from a standstill. It will then give a very obvious cloud of Blue and then nothing.
There is no smoke on Over-run, no smoke on hard acceleration.

I'm now thinking PCV valve :)
 
Some of those heads mentioned that they use higher compression. How will the owner compensate for that? In addition, if the owner lives where there is smog testing, the engine might develop too much NOx.

Ever see websites that import engines from Japan that are still good? Sometimes they sell brand new castings of certain parts, and that could be an advantage over those unknown aftermarket heads on eBay.

Hopefully PCV replacement does solve the problem.
 
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