The Noack hypocrisy

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wemay

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It's funny how Noack seemed to be the sole basis for SOME bitoger's choice of PP or PU (not that they aren't great oils) for many years. It also fueled their 'better because of the Noack' attitudes when comparing to comparable oils.

Now that many of those 'inferior' oils have equal or lower Noack to PPPP/PUP, the story is......"well, Noack isnt everything." LOL.
 
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It was similar to when Valvoline NextGen was blacksheeped because of its high NOACK and failure to meet a SN.

What did it do in my K24... made it run fine.
 
Originally Posted By: redhat
It was similar to when Valvoline NextGen was blacksheeped because of its high NOACK and failure to meet a SN.

What did it do in my K24... made it run fine.


+1
 
I'm reconsidering the Safety-Kleen dino for summer use, I suspect the NOACK is right @ 15% if not higher in reality.

The Valvoline NextGen uses recycled bases from Safety Kleen, and a high NOACK on recycled base oil makes sense.

I don't like how much oil vapour comes out of the filler cap when removed on a hard-run, hot engine in the summer.

A low NOACK will always be one indicator of base oil quality for me.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles


'...one indicator of base oil quality for me.
'

Yes, one indicator of many, for sure.
 
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No argument there!

Speaking of which, I like looking at the CCS and VI too, but they are so easily fudged with additives. HTHS is pretty telling IMO --but again could be fudged by correction fluids and additives, though much less likely IMO.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles

A low NOACK will always be one indicator of base oil quality for me.

Noack is without question one indicator of base oil quality but when it comes to finished oils it's importance is largely immaterial in most applications. There is no proof that it plays any role in contributing to intake track deposits in DI engines nor to increased oil consumption at normal operating temp's.
15% is not bad and even every dino is supposed to be no higher than that. Most synthetic oils are no higher than 13%.

I consider Noack a reference spec'. It can be useful to try and figure out the type of base oils used if you're curious about that sort of thing but it's pretty much at the bottom of the list of attributes I consider in selecting a motor oil.
 
jimmies_zpsc7dadc28.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf

TEOST (testing conducted by AMSOIL) is arguably more import to D.I. applications. Link is above.


Really it's a sufficiently high valve temperature and proper PCV design that's critical for valve cleanliness.

But about TEOST, the issue I have with aptly applying TEOST 33C to DI intake valves are the major differences in oxidation modes.

33C cycles between 200°C to 480°C in a non-turbulent environment with only 100cc of oil laminarly flowing over a heated surface, in the presence of an oxidant catalyst, no-less.

An intake valve must remain above 400°C to resist deposit formation from vapours and mist of the oil that should not even be there in the first place, that has been separated from the bulk by more than one mode.

Atomization - reflecting poor separator design and/or blow-by

and of course volatilization:

Additives like phosphates and any other volatile additives will be of a higher concentration 'in the vapour' than the bulk oil; additive volatility is an issue (independent of oil volatility). Reason 1 why TEOST 33C is not apt.

Then there are the HC chains that have seen sufficiently high local temperatures to change their phase. Not only that, but the new vapours have a significantly higher exposure to oxygen in the crankcase, enabling rapid oxidation of those vapours, so that when they re-condense (on any surface, incl the valves) it does not exactly resemble the fractions that were vapourised in the first place. Under valve-cover varnish?

That's the difference between vacuum distillation/condensation of crudes to make bases and the same process occurring in the crankcase; the oxygen present in the latter. It's lke the fast track to oxidative thickening IMO.

A fantastic solution to this problem is avoiding the volatility in the first place, with the selection of suitable grade and quality

Interestingly enough, 0w20 has no specified TEOST limit.
 
I agree with what jrustles said above about applicability of TEOST 33C to DI intake valve deposits. Volatility has been shown to correlate to those deposits:
Link
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
....."well, Noack isnt everything." LOL.

It is for DI engine car owners. [/quote]

It is for piston ring owners as well.
 
DI is really nothing new. What about all of us that have had DI diesels for a couple of decades now before all the NOACK scare? Yes, diesels also have CCV as well, all the way from the small VW engines right on up to the 15L and 16L heavy diesels. If intake deposits were going to be a real issue, they would have cropped up a long time ago... before all the very low NOACK oils showed up this became the topic du jour.
 
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Originally Posted By: chrisri
....."well, Noack isnt everything." LOL.

It is for DI engine car owners.


It is for piston ring owners as well. [/quote]

Yep, the test is expressly for volatility in and around the ringbelt, and the cylinder wall exposed the those temperatures...not intake deposits, and nothing to do with evaporation at bulk oil temperature


The main proponents for the 'meaninglesd specifucation' don't like it becayse thei pet oils aren' good at it
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The main proponents for the 'meaninglesd specifucation' don't like it becayse thei pet oils aren' good at it

They don't worry about Noack down under because 20w-50 has the highest volatility of any oil on the market there.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
It's funny how Noack seemed to be the sole basis for SOME bitoger's choice of PP or PU (not that they aren't great oils) for many years. It also fueled their 'better because of the Noack' attitudes when comparing to comparable oils.

Now that many of those 'inferior' oils have equal or lower Noack to PPPP/PUP, the story is......"well, Noack isnt everything." LOL.


Sure it is. We are still busy building our stash collection with old style PU for just that reason. Saved $60 on my last fillup with fuel rewards to boot!
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Shannow
The main proponents for the 'meaninglesd specifucation' don't like it becayse thei pet oils aren' good at it

They don't worry about Noack down under because 20w-50 has the highest volatility of any oil on the market there.
wink.gif



I hear them 50s also get favourable treatment from the ASTM VI calculation as well...
 
Granted, Noack is definitely important. I just dont think it should be a sole determinant or a reason to downplay other oils that don't have a number under 10%. How much better is a 10% Noack oil over a 12% in the grand-skeem of things.For that matter, I dont think we can honestly say PP is superior to PPPP without significant testing.
 
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