When you replace the clutch, get the flywheel re-surfaced too, since it does half the work. Yes replace the pilot bushing along with the other parts you have coming. Make sure the clutch disc isn't binding on the splines also. The one "test" I would try is jack rear wheels up and see if the wheels stop turning when you disengage the clutch while in gear to see if the clutch releases. Then put the transmission in neutral with the clutch engaged,see if the wheels turn in neutral. Then something is binding on the main shaft of the trans.
Very hard to shift- pilot bearing??
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Traction
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Had the same symptoms on the Wrangler, and it WAS the pilot bearing.
Easy way to test it: shift the transmission around with the engine Off. If it's easy/normal to shift, then it's the pilot bearing.
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Dude, think about it...we just experienced the same symptoms as OP and replaced the clutch and throwout bearing etc on the Wrangler, so I have immediate and personal experience (not to mention I was involved with the same thing several years ago)
"No load" is exactly right...when the clutch is pressed, the throwout bearing isolates the transmission from the spinning flywheel. When it fails, it allows the transmission to spin at or near the speed of the flywheel, which is why it is hard to shift -- the transmission's synchronizers have to do the work of slowing down the internals of the transmission before you can get it into gear, and this can result in rapid synchronizer wear. With a well functioning throwout bearing, the transmission spins very little or not at all, making all shifts more "like butter".
This is why when the engine is not running you can shift easily with a bad throwout bearing - the transmission is not spinning, and the synchronizers do not have to generate friction to slow anything down.
Granted, a bad clutch could cause the same issues, but it's unlikely as a worn clutch almost always results in slippage, which helps rather than hinders shifting.
Testing shift linkage? If you will recall, OP stated it shifted fine once moving.
1kickbuttranger, hopefully you'll be changing out the transmission fluid with the clutch change.
A bad slave cylinder or even a bad master cylinder would produce the same results using that test. If you have a bad master or slave, when you push the clutch pedal in, the clutch doesn't actually disengage. So the input shaft is still turning, making it hard to shift. With the engine off, the input shaft isn't turning, so it's easy to shift.
Originally Posted By: Traction
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Had the same symptoms on the Wrangler, and it WAS the pilot bearing.
Easy way to test it: shift the transmission around with the engine Off. If it's easy/normal to shift, then it's the pilot bearing.
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Dude, think about it...we just experienced the same symptoms as OP and replaced the clutch and throwout bearing etc on the Wrangler, so I have immediate and personal experience (not to mention I was involved with the same thing several years ago)
"No load" is exactly right...when the clutch is pressed, the throwout bearing isolates the transmission from the spinning flywheel. When it fails, it allows the transmission to spin at or near the speed of the flywheel, which is why it is hard to shift -- the transmission's synchronizers have to do the work of slowing down the internals of the transmission before you can get it into gear, and this can result in rapid synchronizer wear. With a well functioning throwout bearing, the transmission spins very little or not at all, making all shifts more "like butter".
This is why when the engine is not running you can shift easily with a bad throwout bearing - the transmission is not spinning, and the synchronizers do not have to generate friction to slow anything down.
Granted, a bad clutch could cause the same issues, but it's unlikely as a worn clutch almost always results in slippage, which helps rather than hinders shifting.
Testing shift linkage? If you will recall, OP stated it shifted fine once moving.
1kickbuttranger, hopefully you'll be changing out the transmission fluid with the clutch change.
A bad slave cylinder or even a bad master cylinder would produce the same results using that test. If you have a bad master or slave, when you push the clutch pedal in, the clutch doesn't actually disengage. So the input shaft is still turning, making it hard to shift. With the engine off, the input shaft isn't turning, so it's easy to shift.
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Traction
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Had the same symptoms on the Wrangler, and it WAS the pilot bearing.
Easy way to test it: shift the transmission around with the engine Off. If it's easy/normal to shift, then it's the pilot bearing.
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Dude, think about it...we just experienced the same symptoms as OP and replaced the clutch and throwout bearing etc on the Wrangler, so I have immediate and personal experience (not to mention I was involved with the same thing several years ago)
"No load" is exactly right...when the clutch is pressed, the throwout bearing isolates the transmission from the spinning flywheel. When it fails, it allows the transmission to spin at or near the speed of the flywheel, which is why it is hard to shift -- the transmission's synchronizers have to do the work of slowing down the internals of the transmission before you can get it into gear, and this can result in rapid synchronizer wear. With a well functioning throwout bearing, the transmission spins very little or not at all, making all shifts more "like butter".
This is why when the engine is not running you can shift easily with a bad throwout bearing - the transmission is not spinning, and the synchronizers do not have to generate friction to slow anything down.
Granted, a bad clutch could cause the same issues, but it's unlikely as a worn clutch almost always results in slippage, which helps rather than hinders shifting.
Testing shift linkage? If you will recall, OP stated it shifted fine once moving.
1kickbuttranger, hopefully you'll be changing out the transmission fluid with the clutch change.
A bad slave cylinder or even a bad master cylinder would produce the same results using that test. If you have a bad master or slave, when you push the clutch pedal in, the clutch doesn't actually disengage. So the input shaft is still turning, making it hard to shift. With the engine off, the input shaft isn't turning, so it's easy to shift.
True; however there would be difficulty shifting at all times if the clutch is failing to disengage. Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Originally Posted By: Traction
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Had the same symptoms on the Wrangler, and it WAS the pilot bearing.
Easy way to test it: shift the transmission around with the engine Off. If it's easy/normal to shift, then it's the pilot bearing.
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Dude, think about it...we just experienced the same symptoms as OP and replaced the clutch and throwout bearing etc on the Wrangler, so I have immediate and personal experience (not to mention I was involved with the same thing several years ago)
"No load" is exactly right...when the clutch is pressed, the throwout bearing isolates the transmission from the spinning flywheel. When it fails, it allows the transmission to spin at or near the speed of the flywheel, which is why it is hard to shift -- the transmission's synchronizers have to do the work of slowing down the internals of the transmission before you can get it into gear, and this can result in rapid synchronizer wear. With a well functioning throwout bearing, the transmission spins very little or not at all, making all shifts more "like butter".
This is why when the engine is not running you can shift easily with a bad throwout bearing - the transmission is not spinning, and the synchronizers do not have to generate friction to slow anything down.
Granted, a bad clutch could cause the same issues, but it's unlikely as a worn clutch almost always results in slippage, which helps rather than hinders shifting.
Testing shift linkage? If you will recall, OP stated it shifted fine once moving.
1kickbuttranger, hopefully you'll be changing out the transmission fluid with the clutch change.
A bad slave cylinder or even a bad master cylinder would produce the same results using that test. If you have a bad master or slave, when you push the clutch pedal in, the clutch doesn't actually disengage. So the input shaft is still turning, making it hard to shift. With the engine off, the input shaft isn't turning, so it's easy to shift.
True; however there would be difficulty shifting at all times if the clutch is failing to disengage. Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
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Originally Posted By: Traction
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
This is because the input, output, and counter shafts are ALL spinning, making shifting easier. At a standstill the counter and output shafts are not spinning and the synchro is asked to stop an input shaft that is still connected to the flywheel.
Clutches have two failure modes, slipping and dragging. This is the normal diagnostic for a bad clutch system that causes dragging.
A broken hub spring jammed in the clutch disk lining, a bad slave cylinder, a broken clutch fork, a bad master cylinder, a dried up pilot bearing, they will all have the same effect. I have diagnosed this many times working in many shops and have found each of the causes at least once.
Bottom line is the transmission needs to come out and the clutch parts need to be examined or just replaced as a whole.
Pretty sure the only thing that would test is the shift linkage. Nothing is spinning, and nothing has a load on it. The clutch, pilot bearing, throw-out bearing could be totally trashed and shift perfect with the engine off.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
This is because the input, output, and counter shafts are ALL spinning, making shifting easier. At a standstill the counter and output shafts are not spinning and the synchro is asked to stop an input shaft that is still connected to the flywheel.
Clutches have two failure modes, slipping and dragging. This is the normal diagnostic for a bad clutch system that causes dragging.
A broken hub spring jammed in the clutch disk lining, a bad slave cylinder, a broken clutch fork, a bad master cylinder, a dried up pilot bearing, they will all have the same effect. I have diagnosed this many times working in many shops and have found each of the causes at least once.
Bottom line is the transmission needs to come out and the clutch parts need to be examined or just replaced as a whole.
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Well, just got back from a mini vacation, and came back to some parts waiting for me, some I picked up locally.
The goods
OEM Slave
Luk Clutch kit
USA Pilot bearing in kit
Flywheel - made in China
I hoe it isn't out of balance or warped so it destroys my engine. Original flywheel has been resurfaced, so prolly cant reuse it.
The Fel Pro rear seal is made by National- Not sure if its a good thing or not...
Hecho..
The clutch kit is Hecho, and the flywheel is China
I guess with no iron foundries in the States or Canada, or Mexico, its almost a given that any flywheel or rotor is Chinese.
The fun begins tomorrow morning.
The goods
OEM Slave
Luk Clutch kit
USA Pilot bearing in kit
Flywheel - made in China
The Fel Pro rear seal is made by National- Not sure if its a good thing or not...
Hecho..
The clutch kit is Hecho, and the flywheel is China
I guess with no iron foundries in the States or Canada, or Mexico, its almost a given that any flywheel or rotor is Chinese.
The fun begins tomorrow morning.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Kuato
True; however there would be difficulty shifting at all times if the clutch is failing to disengage. Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
You're right- and I think you are overlooking a very important symptom.
Originally Posted By: 1kickbuttranger
Greetings,
Clutch engagement seems normal, but when at the lights in neutral, with either the clutch in or out, it is very difficult to get into ANY gear. I can usually find one that I can get into, and then I can go into first.
When I come to a stop, with the clutch pressed in, I can get into any gear very easily, but if I wait for a few seconds, then shifting gets hard.
This tells me that the hydraulics are bleeding down.
True; however there would be difficulty shifting at all times if the clutch is failing to disengage. Again, OP's statement that it "shifts fine while moving" tells me that the clutch is in fact disengaging. Gotta look at all the symptoms on this one.
You're right- and I think you are overlooking a very important symptom.
Originally Posted By: 1kickbuttranger
Greetings,
Clutch engagement seems normal, but when at the lights in neutral, with either the clutch in or out, it is very difficult to get into ANY gear. I can usually find one that I can get into, and then I can go into first.
When I come to a stop, with the clutch pressed in, I can get into any gear very easily, but if I wait for a few seconds, then shifting gets hard.
This tells me that the hydraulics are bleeding down.
Actually, even driving, it is more notchy than it should shifting gears. You can feel the clunk between gears. But clutch engagement and disengagement feels fine.
And one last tool that was picked up a few days ago..
Used one of these in the past for a manual, and it worked pretty good.
And one last tool that was picked up a few days ago..
Used one of these in the past for a manual, and it worked pretty good.
Originally Posted By: Traction
When you replace the clutch, get the flywheel re-surfaced too, since it does half the work. Yes replace the pilot bushing along with the other parts you have coming. Make sure the clutch disc isn't binding on the splines also. The one "test" I would try is jack rear wheels up and see if the wheels stop turning when you disengage the clutch while in gear to see if the clutch releases. Then put the transmission in neutral with the clutch engaged,see if the wheels turn in neutral. Then something is binding on the main shaft of the trans.
That would be a pretty good test. I'm starting the work in the morning, so I want the exhaust flanges cold, so probably not going to actually do it. But the spline thing can also cause it. The clutch company shows this to have been a problem on some older Nissan pickups. Issued some tsb for that.
When you replace the clutch, get the flywheel re-surfaced too, since it does half the work. Yes replace the pilot bushing along with the other parts you have coming. Make sure the clutch disc isn't binding on the splines also. The one "test" I would try is jack rear wheels up and see if the wheels stop turning when you disengage the clutch while in gear to see if the clutch releases. Then put the transmission in neutral with the clutch engaged,see if the wheels turn in neutral. Then something is binding on the main shaft of the trans.
That would be a pretty good test. I'm starting the work in the morning, so I want the exhaust flanges cold, so probably not going to actually do it. But the spline thing can also cause it. The clutch company shows this to have been a problem on some older Nissan pickups. Issued some tsb for that.
The slave is a very common issue on Rangers. Been there done that on my first one. Seen em go bad on many others. Good luck with the China made junk.
15 hours hard labor and still not done.
The pilot was real buggered up and sticky. Loose inside as well.
I should be done tomorrow. The clutch self adjusters seemed to be maxed out. The slave was dry.
I'll find out if my problem gets taken care of.
The pilot was real buggered up and sticky. Loose inside as well.
I should be done tomorrow. The clutch self adjusters seemed to be maxed out. The slave was dry.
I'll find out if my problem gets taken care of.
I got a LUK rep set, and I think I got the rest at AutoZone. I have had no trouble with the Chinese Fenco flywheel.If there is a dull line worn in the crank journal from where the lip seal on the RMS rode,either push the seal in, or hang it out a bit, so the new seal is on a shiny part of the journal I did way more than I expected going in,and it took way longer to get the job done, but I am happy with results
Originally Posted By: andyd
I got a LUK rep set, and I think I got the rest at AutoZone. I have had no trouble with the Chinese Fenco flywheel.If there is a dull line worn in the crank journal from where the lip seal on the RMS rode,either push the seal in, or hang it out a bit, so the new seal is on a shiny part of the journal I did way more than I expected going in,and it took way longer to get the job done, but I am happy with results
Unfortunately I did have a groove in the crank that could be felt. I am hoping the new seal may be off a fraction from the factory one.
I messed up the new one a bit, so I went ahead and got another one. I got it fairly flush, but there were areas that I couldn't get perfectly flush for the life of me.
14 hours yesterday, and 5 today, but I'm back on the road. I think my issue is gone, but when I took the cap of the master, it was bone dry... I put fluid in there and got some bubbles. Clutch engagement is ok, but I may try bleeding the slave more than just the inch of fluid in the bleeder tube.
I got a LUK rep set, and I think I got the rest at AutoZone. I have had no trouble with the Chinese Fenco flywheel.If there is a dull line worn in the crank journal from where the lip seal on the RMS rode,either push the seal in, or hang it out a bit, so the new seal is on a shiny part of the journal I did way more than I expected going in,and it took way longer to get the job done, but I am happy with results
Unfortunately I did have a groove in the crank that could be felt. I am hoping the new seal may be off a fraction from the factory one.
I messed up the new one a bit, so I went ahead and got another one. I got it fairly flush, but there were areas that I couldn't get perfectly flush for the life of me.
14 hours yesterday, and 5 today, but I'm back on the road. I think my issue is gone, but when I took the cap of the master, it was bone dry... I put fluid in there and got some bubbles. Clutch engagement is ok, but I may try bleeding the slave more than just the inch of fluid in the bleeder tube.
The guys on the Ranger Station and the directions that come with the the clutch master advise bleeding with the MC off the fire wall so that it can filled with BF by tilting the front down. Its mounted position will trap air.
Yup, there is a good video on youtube by perfection clutch on bleeding it. It makes sense how they describe it.
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