Recent Topics
window tinting: outside or inside
by friendly_jacek
57 minutes 56 seconds ago
NYC police officer injured after hatchet attack.
by dave1251
58 minutes 7 seconds ago
Triumph Herald
by Stelth
Today at 09:43 AM
I have a Royal Purple filter on since 1/29/2013
by cutter
Today at 09:37 AM
Conoco Philips 5W30 synthetic blend in Honda Gen
by lexus114
Today at 09:32 AM
Home AC condenser fins
by ARB1977
Today at 08:27 AM
Havoline OAT Coolant substitute?
by dan87951
Today at 08:00 AM
Pennzoil Spring FRN changed! Codes invalid
by Scott_mi
Today at 07:59 AM
Wix 57202 filter: 9k miles over 3 years
by dnewton3
Today at 07:19 AM
New computer build
by Colt45ws
Today at 07:18 AM
Stabil 360
by RamFan
Today at 06:34 AM
Baldwin B2-HPG Filter
by 340_Magnum
Today at 12:54 AM
Newest Members
Dumy, SethTanner, mrfitz, 69P, newbull87
51678 Registered Users
Who's Online
79 registered (A_Harman, ARCOgraphite, Bandito440, Artem, 95MarkVIII, 7 invisible), 1780 Guests and 215 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51678 Members
64 Forums
221144 Topics
3496180 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#3408513 - 06/27/14 01:49 PM VW 502 to 504 really worth it?
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Hello everyone, been a while since I have posted and for some that is probably good news haha.

Folks that have read some of my posts know how up in the air I was on using a 504 approved Oil in my VW GTI vs the recommended 502. Some of this post may sound repetitious but I am just giving a bigger picture for those that have not read any of my posts.

VW 502 is a High SAPS oil, I was using M1 0w40 and changing it every 5K miles. UOA's showed that this was totally fine.

Then the whole Lubrizol Report about "newer" Low SAPS oils and how they "may" contribute to as much as 47% decrease in carbon vavle deposits of which are VERY common on DI motors.

So this got me thinking. mmmmm (maybe thinking too much) That I should give the 504 oil (Low SAPS) a try. So I ordered up some PU Euro 5w30 L (say that 3x's fast geeze) and filled my GTI with it about a month ago, or say around 1200 miles ago.

To make a long story longer, my GTI was at the dealer getting serviced on an issue I was having and while there I was talking with the mechanic that was a very cool guy by the way. We spoke about oil and he was actually quite knowledgeable. Yeah I was surprised too. He was telling me sure I could use a 504 but to change it every 3-5K miles, but then stated that its not really the sulfur in our gas alone that makes the use of 504 "questionable" to use. I asked what else. He said that the 504 oil does't really like Ethanol. Ethanol in CA is at a minimum of 10% and some places are converting to E15 or 15% ethanol now. He was saying that the 504 does not hold up well with it. He also went on to say that most likely I will need to get my valves cleaned anyway, its just a matter of when. I asked how much that is and he said around $600 and they media blast the valves. he considered this "routine" maintenance on a TSI motor.

So yeah yeah, I know, its an opinion and probably a truth, and then I got to thinking some more. So far with the 504 oil in. I have not noticed ANY change in the behavior of the motor itself. So many people have claimed a smoother running engine, revs better, less turbo lag and this is coming from GTI forums. For me? I have noticed none of that. I have actually noticed a drop in MPG's by 2. Though I am thinking this "could be" do to use of the A/C more since its been in the 100F+ range for the past month.

So I was calculating in my head (scary thought) and came up with, if I use a 504 in hopes that the valves stay cleaner (the whole point to use it) it generally costs me about $20 more to use vs. the M1 0w40 I can get at Wallyworld. Calculate that my lets say 70K miles and I realized that how much more I am paying for the Low SAPS oil, oveer time, would just be the cost of the Valve cleaning job anyway. shrug

So unless the 504 oil in itself is "better" and that is subjective at best, I am now questioning my decision to go with it in the first place. hooked

So for me, I throw this out there again, and I know certain folks are gong to bash me WWF because I am so indecisive but Im just trying to learn and figure things out. Keep in mind that my car is in the most demanding of environments. Very extreme heat in summers. very dusty and on top of that my car is Turbo Charged and is DI.

Since Low SAPS oils do have less additives so to speak, do they protect critical engine parts as well? Or what ever is in there even in lower quantities is sufficient, you just have to change it more frequently? Basically is my engine going to wear quicker using this stuff? Is it worth the money to you guys?

I dont like changing brands of oil all the time, but a friend on these forums uses M1 ESP in his TSI equipped car and likes it. I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed. Maybe my expectations were to high? Or was thinking that water was going to turn into wine or something haha.

Let the bashing commence. getdown


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3408520 - 06/27/14 02:01 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil. smile

If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3408527 - 06/27/14 02:09 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
shDK Offline


Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 545
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil. smile

If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?


I believe The minimum ethanol requirement here in Europe is 5% 10 is however just as normal.

Top
#3408531 - 06/27/14 02:13 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
The difference in the US is that we have different ECU fuel mixture programming due to different emissions standards. This results in more gasoline getting dumped into the oil.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3408546 - 06/27/14 02:36 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
toneydoc Offline


Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 1010
Loc: War Eagle
I think it is more for the turbo charger and trying to keep it from burning or cokeing up the oil. I think the important thing is using a good quality synthetic, changing it at 5k miles or so. My daughter had a 1.8L turbo in a beetle. Changed it with synthetic religiously. Tranny problems got it before engine or turbl
_________________________
1994 Jeep 136k Nextgen 5w30HM
2014 Camry 1k Toyo 5w20
2010 Sebring 32k NextGen5w30
2014 HD Ultra 2k HD20w50
2012 Toyota Rav4 13k Toyo 5w20

Top
#3408569 - 06/27/14 03:03 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am using the PU version 5w30 Euro L but am not really impressed.

What is it that you were expecting it to do, exactly? It's a friggen oil. smile

If you want to save money and still run mid/low SAPS oil, buy Valvoline Synpower 5w-40 from Walmart.

As far as the ethanol comment, I thought they were using similar amounts of ethanol in most places in Europe as well. Or did they abandon that idea?




I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (06/27/14 03:04 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3408577 - 06/27/14 03:07 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2187
Loc: Southeastern USA
If I owned a gasser VW I'd use the 504.00 oil. To me, the idea of reducing intake deposits by 47% is enough incentive to give it a try.

You can order 504.00 oil on-line for as low as $6.00 a liter (when you buy 20 liters) so the price really isn't an issue.

I drive a TDI Jetta which requires 507.00 oil and for years I had oil mist accumulate around the lower intercooler duct. When I changed my brand from Mobil (Mobil-1 ESP 5W-30) to Pentosin SuperPerformance III 5W-30 the misting stopped completely.

I am a firm believer that not all oils are created equal. I am also a firm believer that VW's latest 504/507 rated oils are more than adequate for use in North American operated vehicles.

Top
#3408581 - 06/27/14 03:10 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Both these oils have nearly identical HT/HS viscosity, and for that reason you won't notice any different spool up or MPG.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3408588 - 06/27/14 03:13 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: FowVay]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
For me the cost is about $50 for 6 qts. vs. $25 for 5 qts of the M1 0w40.

Im hoping the PU 5w30 L wont cause any oil issues in the intercooler pipes. Im still trying to figure out what the NOACK of this dang stuff is. It says 11% on the website but that is impossible with the approvals that it carries.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3408638 - 06/27/14 04:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6344
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX

I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Jeff


That just means you didn't get fooled by placebo effect.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

Top
#3408718 - 06/27/14 06:47 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I just heard so many people say that their car ran "smoother" better "MPG's" Better turbo "spool up". I mean, it seemed like man I have to try this stuff!!

I just didn't notice any difference vs the M1 0w40. None at all.

Both these oils have nearly identical HT/HS viscosity, and for that reason you won't notice any different spool up or MPG.

Yeah you are on point.
M1 0W40 is 3.8 and PU L is 3.68.
M1 ESP is 3.58 same as GC.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3408720 - 06/27/14 06:48 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: FowVay]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: FowVay
If I owned a gasser VW I'd use the 504.00 oil. To me, the idea of reducing intake deposits by 47% is enough incentive to give it a try.

You can order 504.00 oil on-line for as low as $6.00 a liter (when you buy 20 liters) so the price really isn't an issue.

I drive a TDI Jetta which requires 507.00 oil and for years I had oil mist accumulate around the lower intercooler duct. When I changed my brand from Mobil (Mobil-1 ESP 5W-30) to Pentosin SuperPerformance III 5W-30 the misting stopped completely.

I am a firm believer that not all oils are created equal. I am also a firm believer that VW's latest 504/507 rated oils are more than adequate for use in North American operated vehicles.

How you like Pentosin? I can get locally but decided to order M1 ESP.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3408862 - 06/27/14 10:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Since the 504 oils have less additives this may not mean more wear correct?

Maybe 504 oils use some type of additives that don't show up on a UOA?

I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.

Diesels are low reving motors I do an italian tune up on my car often ha ha hope this PU 5w30 L is half as good as people think (or hope) it to be.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3408888 - 06/27/14 11:15 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.

Hmmm, that doesn't seem to be a valid way to determine which lube is performing "better."
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3408894 - 06/27/14 11:40 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Your car is not in "the most demanding of environments", truthfully. I think you underestimate the conditions that VW tests their vehicles in.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3409078 - 06/28/14 09:39 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1859
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

Top
#3409185 - 06/28/14 12:28 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Most manufacturers come to my area to do durability testing
Here and Phoenix area. VW States to use 502 for North America. Maybe they feel that type of oil will withstand our climate better? Is what I'm getting at. If it's just a matter of gas quality wouldn't vw rather use an oil that would reduce operation costs and help projected reliability?

Just curious on that. If 504 was that good.
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409188 - 06/28/14 12:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: bluesubie]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis


So according to this I should just use Castrol since they worked with VW in testing of the cars engine life cycle?

I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409248 - 06/28/14 01:58 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Manufacturers are testing their cars all around the world. I see them testing here in Colorado Springs all the time at Pikes Peak.
So, VW 504.00/507.00 is very well capable oil to withstand 120-130f. I see no reason why not.
Take this into consideration.
Motul X-Clean 5W40 has HTHS of 3.64cp.
PU L 5W30 has HTHS 3.68cp.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3409290 - 06/28/14 02:56 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Good point. Edyvw just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (06/28/14 02:57 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409321 - 06/28/14 03:20 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3409332 - 06/28/14 03:38 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
If the lubrizol report is correct there is.
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409349 - 06/28/14 04:02 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Can you guys help me get this turbo into my GTI to see if 504 is REALLY good or not?

[img:left][/img]

He he Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409359 - 06/28/14 04:19 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.

That, and they probably have deal with Castrol. So they are getting dirt cheap Castrol 5W40, doing 10K OCI, they look like any other Euro manufacturer, plus, they take $600 on deposit cleaning.
Now, if they start to use 504.00/507.00 that means using more expensive oil, which means increasing price of oil change, plus doing it every 5K. So average customer that has no any idea what is going on under the hood, will ask these questions:
1. VW is in the start more expensive then comparable Honda Accord (same equipment etc).
2. Honda Accord (or similar car) requires any 5W30 synthetic oil, meaning, if you go to 10 minut oil change place, they will change your oil, put Mobil1 5W30, refill your fluids etc, everything for some 59.99. In the meantime, if VW starts using 504.00/507.00 they will at least charge it 99.99, plus you have to do it every 5K, plus only in dealership (we are talking here about average Joe).

I have friends that drive VW, we start discussing cars, and I get out of conversation ASAP as soon as I realize that they bought car just because it looks nice, nothing else. If I start talking about all this, they would probably sell their car. They are happy, they think that is how things work, and I just leave them with that.

On other hand, people that hang out here are enthusiasts, and the way we maintain our cars, they can make 400K if you ask me.
So, while this discussion is useful I think it is more along the lines that we just like to do something under the hood, so we are trying to find excuse to experiment cool


Edited by edyvw (06/28/14 04:20 PM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3409386 - 06/28/14 04:51 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?

Those UOAs are only useful in comparison to the same lube, and definitely not with something of slightly different viscosity and varying chemistry. UOAs are not designed to compare oils, nor can they function as such.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3409426 - 06/28/14 05:37 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
So if UOAs can't prove one oil is better then another then what's the point? Just to see what your TBN is and if you have a coolant leak?

Edyvw your spot on I agree.

We tinker on stuff is why we do it but because of people like us cars are better today.

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (06/28/14 05:37 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3409481 - 06/28/14 07:07 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11625
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Pretty much - they're primarily to check for lubricant condemnation, not which lubricant is doing a better job keeping wear down.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

Top
#3409563 - 06/28/14 09:38 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If the lubrizol report is correct there is.

Yet your VW mechanic thinks your engine will require periodic carbon cleaning, regardless what oil you run.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3411899 - 07/01/14 06:57 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Correct. The VW shop Foreman that worked on my car said in his experience the valve cleanings will need to be done. It just varies by personal driving style, maintenance, fuel type used and oil.

Eventually it WILL need to get done.

Just part of life having a DI motor.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3411901 - 07/01/14 06:58 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Anyone know the Noack of PU Euro 5w30 L by chance?

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/01/14 06:59 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3411909 - 07/01/14 07:02 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Anyone know the Noack of PU Euro 5w30 L by chance?

Jeff

IDK, since PU L is different then Shell Helix L.
I think it is due to base stocks since PU is Made in USA, while Helix is Made in EU.
Helix L is on par with M1 ESP.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3411964 - 07/01/14 08:09 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
skyactiv Offline


Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 654
Loc: The Midwest
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre

Top
#3412976 - 07/02/14 09:37 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Does this article give the impression that Low Saps Matt affect durability?
low or no saps
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3412982 - 07/02/14 09:39 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: skyactiv]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
According to the latest MSDS, it's a PAO based synthetic. The outdated technical data sheet says the NOACK is 11%. I posted a UOA using the PU Euro L 5W30 in my GTI. I didn't need to add any oil. Google Shell Lubricants Data Centre


I understand what the web site stays the Noack is but it has to be incorrect to be 11% with the certs this oil carries.

Considering PU Euro 5w40 is 6.7% I reckon it should be around that figure.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3413220 - 07/03/14 08:11 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Agreed, it's probably 8% or so.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3414614 - 07/04/14 03:24 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
After much discussion wtih a few VW mechanics I think the 504 thing is out the window for me. I have PU 5w30L in at the momment but will ditch it and stick with my 0w40 M1.

Just seems that the mechanics dont feel its worth the risk to take in "hopes" that you get cleaner valves out of the deal. VW did have a patent on the intake valves which most of you guys probably already know about but I will post it here.

VW PATENT ON DI INTAKE VALVES

So in "Theory" and what the VW pro's that I have been in contact with say if I do what the patent says to do (basically a Italian Tune up at least once a month) should net me as clean of valves as I can possibly get. Even then, the cleanings are STILL going to be needed at some point or another.

Though the Italian Tune up option, if done correctly and often enough, should eliminate the issue. I think the 502 oils just are going to keep wear down IMO. Yes I cannot prove that, but it does make sense that an oil with more additives will be less prone to wear.

No I am not a scientist and yes I know there are WWAAYY smarter people than I on this site that will argue this, and if you can just post up some proof for the "common" man to rationalize.

Till then, unless someone proves me wrong or otherwise, Good Ol' tried and true M1 0w40 502 spec approved is going back in next oil change.

horse Sorry Guys.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3414624 - 07/04/14 03:41 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
This is right off the VW PATENT to sum up the "Italian Tune-Up"

An additional approach for reducing the formation of carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 is to increase the intake valve temperature, at least temporarily, since, surprisingly, it was found that any carbon deposits possibly present are removed at temperatures above 380° C. To this end, the intake valve unit, which comprises, among other components, the intake valves 20 and the valve stem guide 28, is designed with means that hinder heat dissipation in such a way that increased surface temperatures of more than 380° C. develop at least in the area of the neck 68 of the intake valves 20 in at least one predetermined region of the load characteristic diagram 74 of the internal combustion engine. This is illustrated in FIG. 4. The intake valve temperature is above 380° C. in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram. At these temperatures, carbon deposits on the intake valves 20 are removed. This region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs, for example, at speeds over 3,000 rpm, and in that speed range. extends essentially to full load. Even if the internal combustion engine is not operated most of the time in the region 112 b during normal driving operation of a motor vehicle, nevertheless, carbon deposits that could adversely affect the operation of the internal combustion engine cannot build up, since their removal in the shaded region 112 b of the characteristic diagram occurs very quickly. For example, operation of the internal combustion engine in this region 112 b of the characteristic diagram for a period of, for example, 20 min., is sufficient to remove even a thick layer of carbon deposits. In other words, a routine expressway trip cleans the intake valves 20 sufficiently. In addition, this region of the characteristic diagram can be entered in the course of maintenance or repair work on the internal combustion engine in an automotive workshop.

THIS may be your best bet to fight Intake valve deposits on ANY Engine that has DI since most Intake valves on DI engines are plated.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3414778 - 07/04/14 08:21 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
You are giving too much thought into this.
If oil retains TBN after 5K, why is it bad to use it?
Why mechanics think you are risking anything here? Especially in CA where fuel is better then in rest of the U.S?
If oil retains TBN, TAN is OK, flash point is OK, cst is OK, then there is some benefit to that oil. At least that oil does not leave as much of deposits, you cans till do italian tune up, and your CAT will definitely flow better.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3414791 - 07/04/14 08:33 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Why mechanics think you are risking anything here?

Agreed. What risk?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3414802 - 07/04/14 08:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I am not sure exactly what the "risk" is either. I think it could be they really don't know and since VW recommends 502 in North America maybe the mechanics don't want to get into a he said he said argument? The one VW mechanic in Palm Springs where I had to take my car in told me 504 is fine just change it more often.

Yeah I give it allot of thought because these cars can get very expensive to fix. That is something I'm not really used to.

Sometimes I think the DI technology is more hassle then it's worth.

Then again some companies with DI may not have these problems? Who knows.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3414943 - 07/05/14 12:05 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I am not sure exactly what the "risk" is either. I think it could be they really don't know and since VW recommends 502 in North America maybe the mechanics don't want to get into a he said he said argument? The one VW mechanic in Palm Springs where I had to take my car in told me 504 is fine just change it more often.

Yeah I give it allot of thought because these cars can get very expensive to fix. That is something I'm not really used to.

Sometimes I think the DI technology is more hassle then it's worth.

Then again some companies with DI may not have these problems? Who knows.

Jeff

Well here is the thing.
I trust more my knowledge then theirs.
Every time I talk to them (whether that was Montgomery, AL, San Diego, CA or Colorado Springs) I always stay appalled by the level of ignorance.
San Diego dealerships see much more volume of VW cars then Palm Springs. When I asked about 504 oils, answer was, and I quote: if you want your engine to look clean then use that oil!
When I mentioned TBN I lost them there, and I figured out that I should have little bit more trust in myself.
I am currently in Moab, UT. Tomorrow I am taking Tiguan on light off-road course in Arches National Park. Temperature is around 110, and M1 ESP has 4K. If I had a bit of doubt that that oil cannot make it, I would change it before coming here. Today, I did Monarch pass, 12,000ft, AC on, actually temp gauge started to move to the right from middle. I cranked heating, turned off AC, and everything was OK.
I will do UOA after all this, at 5K and we will see.


Edited by edyvw (07/05/14 12:13 AM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3415381 - 07/05/14 04:05 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1288
Loc: Atlanta,GA
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Edited by BMWTurboDzl (07/05/14 04:08 PM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

Top
#3415765 - 07/05/14 11:28 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.

Diesels: Yes
Gas: no.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3415967 - 07/06/14 09:28 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Delta Offline


Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 55
Loc: Union, MS
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.
_________________________
2008 VW Jetta SE - 2.5 5cyl 5MT - Rotella T6 5w40
2008 Chevrolet Equinox LT - 3400 V6 - Rotella T5 10w30
2001 Ford Expedition - 5.4T - Motorcraft 5w20

Top
#3416583 - 07/06/14 09:19 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Delta]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3428650 - 07/18/14 05:56 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Here is the thing...No one really knows. Can you prove to me otherwise? I doubt it. So logic tells you if there is more of something, it must be better than less of something. Maybe scientifically this may not be true to those in the know.

In reality no one knows. No tests have been done, no one has checked wear. Lubrizol has come the closest and did tests and tore engines apart and all they had to say is the Engines had less carbon build up. No mention of any wear difference.

In hindsight, as an automotive enthusiast I have found that during the most extreme conditions having oils that are packed with additives have shown to hold up very well. I wont get into my past cars and racing, but my VW may not be raced or tracked, but where I live the temps are generally the warmest in the nation, very dusty and dirty environment my VW is turbo charged and I am sure any extra additives would only help things, not hurt.

BUT there is always a BUT or we wouldn't be on this site. We all want to try out new things and see what happens. You may not be an automotive enthusiast to be on this site, but you are an oil enthusiast or you just wouldn't care.

From my records from last year this time All I can say is this thus far about MY 504 experience.

1. My MPG's have gone down 1 mpg to 24 vs 25 average last year.

2. Car does not turn over as easily. Ta ta ta ta start. Vs. Ta Start. (Battery is fine.)

3. No noted difference in Turbo Spool Up or Engine performance in any way.

So all I have to go on is the Lubrizol report in HOPES that the 504 actually does keep carbon depostis down. Other than that? I am paying for an oil that is 2x's more expensive, and needs to be changed 2x's as much. vs. the M1 0w40 I had in prior to my test.

EDYVW is using M1 ESP 5w30 and I am using PU 5w30 Euro L in mine. Maybe I will try the M1 ESP next time, I just can get the PU much cheaper than the M1 in 504 grade.

All I care about is the car. I want what is best for it. The thing is, I have NO IDEA if I am helping it, or hurting it at this point since most of the proof will not show up till many many miles later.

Just show me proof otherwise, if you dont, its just an opinion and we all know about those.


Dang you gotta love this site.
getdown


Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/18/14 05:59 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3428658 - 07/18/14 06:13 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.


EDYVW do you think the Castrol 0w40 would be as good as the GC? Well that sounds kinda weird to say now since the 0w40 is from Germany and the "GC" is now what Belgium made? Either way you know what I am getting at. haha.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3428740 - 07/18/14 08:25 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3428771 - 07/18/14 08:47 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1288
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Here is the thing...No one really knows. Can you prove to me otherwise? I doubt it. So logic tells you if there is more of something, it must be better than less of something. Maybe scientifically this may not be true to those in the know.

In reality no one knows. No tests have been done, no one has checked wear. Lubrizol has come the closest and did tests and tore engines apart and all they had to say is the Engines had less carbon build up. No mention of any wear difference.

In hindsight, as an automotive enthusiast I have found that during the most extreme conditions having oils that are packed with additives have shown to hold up very well. I wont get into my past cars and racing, but my VW may not be raced or tracked, but where I live the temps are generally the warmest in the nation, very dusty and dirty environment my VW is turbo charged and I am sure any extra additives would only help things, not hurt.

BUT there is always a BUT or we wouldn't be on this site. We all want to try out new things and see what happens. You may not be an automotive enthusiast to be on this site, but you are an oil enthusiast or you just wouldn't care.

From my records from last year this time All I can say is this thus far about MY 504 experience.

1. My MPG's have gone down 1 mpg to 24 vs 25 average last year.

2. Car does not turn over as easily. Ta ta ta ta start. Vs. Ta Start. (Battery is fine.)

3. No noted difference in Turbo Spool Up or Engine performance in any way.

So all I have to go on is the Lubrizol report in HOPES that the 504 actually does keep carbon depostis down. Other than that? I am paying for an oil that is 2x's more expensive, and needs to be changed 2x's as much. vs. the M1 0w40 I had in prior to my test.

EDYVW is using M1 ESP 5w30 and I am using PU 5w30 Euro L in mine. Maybe I will try the M1 ESP next time, I just can get the PU much cheaper than the M1 in 504 grade.

All I care about is the car. I want what is best for it. The thing is, I have NO IDEA if I am helping it, or hurting it at this point since most of the proof will not show up till many many miles later.

Just show me proof otherwise, if you dont, its just an opinion and we all know about those.


Dang you gotta love this site.
getdown


Jeff


Here's a secret. UOA's don't always capture the AW additives used in low saps oils. It's a different type of additive. So basically you're making a decision off incomplete information.


Edited by BMWTurboDzl (07/18/14 08:48 PM)
_________________________
'15 435i - Factory fill.
'10 335d (sold)

Top
#3429169 - 07/19/14 10:00 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.

Audi kept TFSI sign, while VW now uses TSI signature for same engines.
Basically, Audi A4 2.0TFS and VW 2.0TSI are same engines (though A4 makes more torque).
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3429170 - 07/19/14 10:02 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.


EDYVW do you think the Castrol 0w40 would be as good as the GC? Well that sounds kinda weird to say now since the 0w40 is from Germany and the "GC" is now what Belgium made? Either way you know what I am getting at. haha.

Jeff

Hard to tell. I liked GC because it was unique grade in VW502.00 market and was readily available.
Meaning, it would reach operating temp faster, but it is still thick oil.
There is UOA on Used analysis forum. It seems very good.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3429315 - 07/19/14 01:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
deven Online   content


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 2147
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.

I've talked to tuners that install both Stasis and APR tunes and they say that one of the big benefit of these tunes is reduction in fuel dilution and improve gas mileage as well. I've personally seen an increase in gas mileage with the APR tune in my Audi A6.
_________________________
ROYAL PURPLE GUY

Top
#3429321 - 07/19/14 02:07 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: deven]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: deven
I've talked to tuners that install both Stasis and APR tunes and they say that one of the big benefit of these tunes is reduction in fuel dilution

I believe it. US stock tune is programmed to run rich to help comply with our EPA emissions requirements here. This in turn is responsible at least in part for all these fuel dilution issues we're seeing here. The same cars run leaner stock tunes in Europe because their emissions requirements are different. So, getting an aftermarket tune actually helps here, performance benefits aside.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3429695 - 07/19/14 10:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Hmm, interesting. Mine had the Stasis v2 tune (supposedly the Revo tune rebranded since the companies merged). My UOAs came back fine on fuel, though the motor was pretty hard on the dealer-supplied Syntec 5w40.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3432358 - 07/22/14 02:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Back to the original question of 502 vs 504, this guy seems to think the full SAPS ester-based 502 oil is actually better for DI...


Quote:
From other related tests I have always advocated the use of 502/505 spec oil (genuine full group IV or better base stocks only) on TFSI engines rather than the 504/507. 504/507 is marketed as superior oil but this is not the case. Many important ingredients were removed and replaced with inferior and more expensive alternatives in order to protect emission control components, such as the DPF, on VAG diesel engines. This doesn’t apply to VAG gasoline engines but to simplify long life oil changes 504/507 is now recommended across the board.


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post9938137


He claims to have 2 years worth of lab testing (funded by an engine manufacturer) to back it up, and wrote this piece:

http://www.oilem.com/turbo-fuel-stratifi...ild-up-problem/


_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3433758 - 07/23/14 08:05 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Very interesting links there. Took me a while to read but good info. The guy was basically saying to use a group 4 or higher oil since they produce less carbon build up.

At least that is what I got out of it.

Funny he mentions 504 being a "fuel savings" oil? I never heard that before.

Also no mention of the lubrizol report which PROVED 504 oil reduced carbon build up by 4%. Maybe this guy works for a competitor of Lubrizol?

So now what?


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3433983 - 07/24/14 12:45 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Mathson Offline


Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 66
Loc: North Europe
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Very interesting links there. Took me a while to read but good info. The guy was basically saying to use a group 4 or higher oil since they produce less carbon build up.



Well I think that's one of the reasons why 504/507 contains Grp IV usually more than 502/505. For at least formulations I've seen. It seems that Audizine guy is (intentionally?) not telling the complete picture. Wonder why is that.

Top
#3434089 - 07/24/14 07:23 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Mathson]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Mathson
Well I think that's one of the reasons why 504/507 contains Grp IV usually more than 502/505.

Never really observed this, but again, I wasn't paying attention. What makes you think that is the case?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3434187 - 07/24/14 08:57 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I doubt 504 oils have any more higher group base stocks than 502. The guy is the posts on audizone is indeed very coy about things but it does make one curious especially if you own a VAG car like I do or any car with DI actually.

In therory the use of let's say an ester based oil like Redline that should take heat Bete should resist burn off more. We know this to be true by the 6% NOACK most Redline products have.

But in M1 defense romor is M1 5w30 ESP has a NOACK of 5.8% so in theory that should be better for burn off. I feel the M1 is group 3+ by gutt feeling so that theory just went out the window.

The guy in the post though does seem to agree that less additives seems to equal more wear. Specifically there is no mention and again he didn't mention the Lubrizol Report which makes me belief he works for a competitor.


Though the report does not compare wear mainly focuses on cleanliness. I imagine though if there was significant wear difference it would be noticeable.

504 oils are for fuel economy though? I think that's a stretch. Yeah maybe compared to Redline 5w40 it is. Not sure why that guy feels 504 is fuel saving oil.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3434196 - 07/24/14 09:07 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 966
Loc: Chicago / IN
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.


[/quote]


Edited by vinu_neuro (07/24/14 09:08 AM)
_________________________
04 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6MT | PU 5W-20

Top
#3434207 - 07/24/14 09:34 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 331
Loc: Fiume,Croatia,EU
I really know little about VAG DI petrols but since i'm in Europe i know somethimg about old DI engines. In early 2000 Alfa Romeo designed new 2.0 Jts engine with DI. Around 100k km cars would start losing power from 165 to in worse case 130 hp. Reason we all know: carbon deposits on intake valves. I was talking with an AR specialist and guy told me that they (manufacturer) changed map/ timing and oil grade. From 5w40/10w40 to fully synthetic 10w60. He sad that with this changes problem was solved, atleast in majority of cars.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v (Mobil Super 3000x1 5w40)
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet (Selenia WR 5w40)
93 Ford Escort 1.3 HCS (HDO 5w30)

Top
#3434325 - 07/24/14 11:53 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: vinu_neuro]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.

The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings.

As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3434699 - 07/24/14 07:42 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

All I know is in in 120F+ heat with the a/c at full blast in city driving with dusty conditions. If the 504 PU in my car holds up in these conditions it will hold up anywhere.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3434704 - 07/24/14 07:48 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: vinu_neuro
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.

The lubrizol findings pertaining to lower SAPS oils is certainly a valid point that seems to contradict this guy's findings.

As for the valve deposit test included in the 504 spec, theoretically it doesn't prove anything. Potentially the 502 oils could also excel on this test (or even do better), but since it's not required, then I guess we'll never know.



How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here?

504 is 40% less deposits vs 502 so what will we never know?

Maybe 504 has a base oil or an additive in it like the guy from audizone was talking about and thus less deposits? Or is it the HTHS of 504 oils that are the reason?

I realize is not that simple but just from hindsight.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3434748 - 07/24/14 08:43 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3434749 - 07/24/14 08:44 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
How so? The report was Euro 3 which is 502 I believe vs euro 4 which is 504. Am I missing something here?

I was talking about the test that's included in the sequence of tests to obtain the 504 certification that vinu_neuro highlighted earlier:

_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3434965 - 07/25/14 06:28 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Good info right off the lubrizol page yet the guy from Audizone never mentions it? Anyone here a member of that website to send that guy a post and ask about that? I'd hate to sign up just for that.

I already replied in that thread, in case you missed it.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post9951393

He lost me. Not sure I understand what he's talking about anymore...
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3435318 - 07/25/14 01:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
QP Thanks for posting on the audi site. I think the guy works for a competitor of lubrizol so it's going to turn into a p I s s I n g match.

I still do not understand how he feels a group 4+will reduce deposits since it's the additives that are causing the issues not the base oil?

Then again all goes to who you believe? Lubrizol blames the additives while this uk guy blames the base oil.

So difficult on who to believe. I mean I would run Redline 5w30 in my car with confidence but lubrication isn't the question. Valve deposit reduction is. At least for me. As for one oil wearing more than an other is a debate that takes years to prove either way.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3435644 - 07/25/14 06:51 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil?

Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI.

I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay.

The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves.

All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3435660 - 07/25/14 07:03 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im curious too how the UK guy in the Audizone site says that he would use a 504 oil before using a group 3+ oil? Arent most 504 oils group 3+ oil?

Im curious to who this guy works for. I mean, if it was that simple to say, use a product like Redline, or some group 4+ oil and you will have less issues. I just find it hard to believe its that simple. If it was,I would just start using Redline 5w30 that they recommend for my GTI.

I think there is more to it than that though. Additives themselves must have something to do with the carbon build up because having less of them proves 40% less deposits. Sure Lubrizol is a company that sells additives, but they also showed the proof, wasnt hearsay.

The guy in the Audizone posts also said that there needs to be a coating on the valves to prevent the carbon build up? They do have a special coating. That is the VW patent I posted I think on the first page. That coating is supposed to resist carbon deposits and to clean them you simply do an Italian tune up every so often to clean the valves.

All this makes me curious. Very curious. crzy


Jeff

I think his reasoning is bcs 504.00 is blend of several base groups and not only that, due to very strict requirements, base oils are carefully selected.
if you remember, Lubrizol in the table says that VW505.01 which was approval for previous generation of VW diesel engines is Group 3.
On other hand, table says that VW504.00/507.00 are Group 3, 4 and 5. I think it is because it is ahrd to achieve what VW requires only with Group 3+.
Looking at the M1 ESP numbers it is hard to believe that it was made only of Group 3+ without using Group 4 and 5, especially very good pour point and flash point. Also, Pentosin on the German web site says that their VW504.00/507.00 is made from Synthetic based oils, while on same site their VW505.01 is advertised as HC oil.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3435710 - 07/25/14 07:53 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Im curious to who this guy works for.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-archer/12/b4/5a

Powerenhancer appears to be a company that distributes various oil and fuel additives, including Archoil, among others.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3435901 - 07/25/14 10:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

To be honest though I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. I ultimately seek the oil the will give the best wear protection and help with the valve deposit issue.

Wear though would be very difficult to prove over the short term and with the synthetics of today? Wear would take 100k or more and then compare to what? Just way to subjective.

So that leaves me with valve deposit issues. That is really the only reason I'm using 504 right now vs 502. Still will take 40k miles or more to really know.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3435975 - 07/26/14 02:05 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
deven Online   content


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 2147
Loc: Massachusetts
I guess I over simplify things a little too much but I am of the belief that the better the base stock the less deposits in an engine period since they tend to burn cleaner and resist oxidation better. I'm pretty sure that there are tests done to prove otherwise but until I see conclusive evidence I'll believe this to the fullest.

Hence I use Royal Purple in my Audi A6 3.0L TFSI engine. I'll really be surprised if there is any carbon build up in this engine after 100,000 miles if i so choose to keep it till then but I highly doubt it.
_________________________
ROYAL PURPLE GUY

Top
#3436921 - 07/27/14 12:19 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33783
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

Top
#3436947 - 07/27/14 12:48 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JHZR2]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.


Edited by edyvw (07/27/14 12:48 AM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
#3437633 - 07/27/14 06:16 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I understand the rational of higher quality base stocks but now a days companies blend things so precisely of group 3+ 4 and 5 so well does your engine know the difference?

The additives to me make sense. Different additive packs can burn off differently causing different issues on different engines. Some engines are just more prone or sensitive by design.

If I were to use a non VW approved oil would be redline without a doubt. Since my car is under warranty and VAG group seems A N A L about the oil you use then I probably will stick to 504.

I'm not sure why the guy says 504 cause oil usage issues. Mine hasn't dropped past where I filled it almost 3k miles ago. That argument is subjective. Well all of this can be "subjective".

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/27/14 06:18 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3437854 - 07/27/14 09:06 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33783
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.


The blend of oxygenates in gas have little to do with it. Sulfur perhaps, and there still is an EPA spec, so do the math and you can correlate.

Top
#3438583 - 07/28/14 02:46 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JHZR2]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
If anything this subject is interesting. I think folks that have DI engines are always going to be curious about what can help reduce the valve deposit issues. Seems all major makers have some kind of issues, how they deal with them may be different, but its an on going problem.

I do know VW and I am sure other companies do to, they have a coating on the valve neck that is supposed to help with the reduction of formation of carbon. This patent by VAG Group is on the first page of this topic. That is old news right?

Then we talk about gasoline. Many feel that gas quality or the detergents in gas make no difference due to the fuel delivery type. I disagree with this. Why? Just gut feeling I guess. I think how the EGR system and PCV systems work on these cars and how things get recirculated. I mean the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder even with DI is what 70% efficiency? So where does the remaining 30% go? It gets recirculated. I believe that those vapors can indeed help with the valve issues. May be very very slight, but I think using a top tier fuel will help in the long haul. Again, cant prove it, but in theory it makes sense.

Oil. This is a very touchy subject as is most things. Talk about Religion, politics or Oil haha and you will ALWAYS get opinions. That is what makes this website so great though. The vast knowledge and experience that everyone shares.

I do believe oil quality does indeed play a role as well. Weather you can say a group 4 or 5 oil will be better than a 3+ is so subjective. VISOM and PURE+ Technologies have taken Group 3+ products and made them SO GOOD that to say Group 4 and 5 are Superior in this day and age? I think may be a stretch.

Like anything, the sum of the parts is what makes things great. You can put a MERC badge on a Pinto, but you still have a Pinto. Know what I mean? Its what makes the oil up, the combination of all its ingredients is what makes it a great oil. Finding the one you like at the price you are willing to pay, the availability and results you are looking for, often take many trials. Everyone has their own experiences and tails to tell. What I find is great oil, is somebody's worst nightmare.

I know I have bored guys on these forums with repetitious and redundant issues, I know QP on here I have irritated him many times, haha, but I am glad people like QP and others are here. They help put you in perspective and keep things real.

So keep the info coming, post whatever info you can find on DI stuff, the AudiZone bit I think is very interesting. Keep the info coming....


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3438830 - 07/28/14 07:29 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4532
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
I enjoy reading these thought-provoking threads even though I rarely participate in them.
_________________________
2003 VW GTI 1.8T 20th Anniversary Edition
2015 Dodge Challenger SXT - Super Track Pak

Top
#3438863 - 07/28/14 07:53 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JAG]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: JAG
I enjoy reading these thought-provoking threads even though I rarely participate in them.


Well I'm glad you did thumbsup

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

Top
#3439881 - 07/29/14 06:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1091
Loc: Colorado Springs
Anyone interested in M1 ESP UOA here is link:http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3439874#Post3439874
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >