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#3437633 - 07/27/14 06:16 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I understand the rational of higher quality base stocks but now a days companies blend things so precisely of group 3+ 4 and 5 so well does your engine know the difference?

The additives to me make sense. Different additive packs can burn off differently causing different issues on different engines. Some engines are just more prone or sensitive by design.

If I were to use a non VW approved oil would be redline without a doubt. Since my car is under warranty and VAG group seems A N A L about the oil you use then I probably will stick to 504.

I'm not sure why the guy says 504 cause oil usage issues. Mine hasn't dropped past where I filled it almost 3k miles ago. That argument is subjective. Well all of this can be "subjective".

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/27/14 06:18 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3437854 - 07/27/14 09:06 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 35554
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm going to hold out for edyvw's near 5k mile trial with M1 ESP and my 3k mile UOA of PU Euro 5w30 and see how things look. Then go from there.

What are all you guys thinking on this?

Jeff


I think I proved out ESP 504 by UOA when it first came out, and it's a 5k oil and no more due to tbn retention.

I think it is def. 5K in CA. However, I would like to see several UOA before making such conclusion. Each state has it's own blend of gas. It looks like here in CO TBN tend to deplete pretty fast. In my M1 0W40 UOA, TBN depleted from 11.7 to 2.6 in 5K.


The blend of oxygenates in gas have little to do with it. Sulfur perhaps, and there still is an EPA spec, so do the math and you can correlate.

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#3438583 - 07/28/14 02:46 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JHZR2]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
If anything this subject is interesting. I think folks that have DI engines are always going to be curious about what can help reduce the valve deposit issues. Seems all major makers have some kind of issues, how they deal with them may be different, but its an on going problem.

I do know VW and I am sure other companies do to, they have a coating on the valve neck that is supposed to help with the reduction of formation of carbon. This patent by VAG Group is on the first page of this topic. That is old news right?

Then we talk about gasoline. Many feel that gas quality or the detergents in gas make no difference due to the fuel delivery type. I disagree with this. Why? Just gut feeling I guess. I think how the EGR system and PCV systems work on these cars and how things get recirculated. I mean the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder even with DI is what 70% efficiency? So where does the remaining 30% go? It gets recirculated. I believe that those vapors can indeed help with the valve issues. May be very very slight, but I think using a top tier fuel will help in the long haul. Again, cant prove it, but in theory it makes sense.

Oil. This is a very touchy subject as is most things. Talk about Religion, politics or Oil haha and you will ALWAYS get opinions. That is what makes this website so great though. The vast knowledge and experience that everyone shares.

I do believe oil quality does indeed play a role as well. Weather you can say a group 4 or 5 oil will be better than a 3+ is so subjective. VISOM and PURE+ Technologies have taken Group 3+ products and made them SO GOOD that to say Group 4 and 5 are Superior in this day and age? I think may be a stretch.

Like anything, the sum of the parts is what makes things great. You can put a MERC badge on a Pinto, but you still have a Pinto. Know what I mean? Its what makes the oil up, the combination of all its ingredients is what makes it a great oil. Finding the one you like at the price you are willing to pay, the availability and results you are looking for, often take many trials. Everyone has their own experiences and tails to tell. What I find is great oil, is somebody's worst nightmare.

I know I have bored guys on these forums with repetitious and redundant issues, I know QP on here I have irritated him many times, haha, but I am glad people like QP and others are here. They help put you in perspective and keep things real.

So keep the info coming, post whatever info you can find on DI stuff, the AudiZone bit I think is very interesting. Keep the info coming....


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3438830 - 07/28/14 07:29 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4550
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
I enjoy reading these thought-provoking threads even though I rarely participate in them.
_________________________
2015 Dodge Challenger SXT - Super Track Pak

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#3438863 - 07/28/14 07:53 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: JAG]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1389
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: JAG
I enjoy reading these thought-provoking threads even though I rarely participate in them.


Well I'm glad you did thumbsup

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3439881 - 07/29/14 06:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1548
Loc: Colorado Springs
Anyone interested in M1 ESP UOA here is link:http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3439874#Post3439874
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (Pentosin 5W40+OEM-Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 0W40+OEM-Mann)

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#3662156 - 03/12/15 08:48 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Rguy Offline


Registered: 03/09/15
Posts: 10
Loc: South Africa
So regarding the G7 Gti,

1) they run higher lube temps than previous models due to VW's thermal dynamics studies, where it was found that they get better economy and power when running dual thermostats (one for the head and one for the block).
2) These motors do not suffer value deposits like the TFSI models due to having both port and direct injection.
3) So far these motors do not suffer heavy fuel dilution like the TFSI's did.

So with all this info you would think your oil choice would be simple, sadly it isn't for me, predominantly due to the high lube temps (my R runs at 117C most days and my wifes Gti at 114C), which in my view is rather high for a 5w-30, not over the top however. Which is why I run Motul X-clean 5w40. If Mobil 1 0w40 were priced properly in South Africa, I would use that due to its good additive pack and wide temperature operating range.

This is just my view and would like comment and opinions as it is a bit of a tricky motor to select lube for.

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#3662165 - 03/12/15 08:53 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Rguy Offline


Registered: 03/09/15
Posts: 10
Loc: South Africa
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If anything this subject is interesting. I think folks that have DI engines are always going to be curious about what can help reduce the valve deposit issues. Seems all major makers have some kind of issues, how they deal with them may be different, but its an on going problem.

I do know VW and I am sure other companies do to, they have a coating on the valve neck that is supposed to help with the reduction of formation of carbon. This patent by VAG Group is on the first page of this topic. That is old news right?

Then we talk about gasoline. Many feel that gas quality or the detergents in gas make no difference due to the fuel delivery type. I disagree with this. Why? Just gut feeling I guess. I think how the EGR system and PCV systems work on these cars and how things get recirculated. I mean the burn rate of the fuel in the cylinder even with DI is what 70% efficiency? So where does the remaining 30% go? It gets recirculated. I believe that those vapors can indeed help with the valve issues. May be very very slight, but I think using a top tier fuel will help in the long haul. Again, cant prove it, but in theory it makes sense.

Oil. This is a very touchy subject as is most things. Talk about Religion, politics or Oil haha and you will ALWAYS get opinions. That is what makes this website so great though. The vast knowledge and experience that everyone shares.

I do believe oil quality does indeed play a role as well. Weather you can say a group 4 or 5 oil will be better than a 3+ is so subjective. VISOM and PURE+ Technologies have taken Group 3+ products and made them SO GOOD that to say Group 4 and 5 are Superior in this day and age? I think may be a stretch.

Like anything, the sum of the parts is what makes things great. You can put a MERC badge on a Pinto, but you still have a Pinto. Know what I mean? Its what makes the oil up, the combination of all its ingredients is what makes it a great oil. Finding the one you like at the price you are willing to pay, the availability and results you are looking for, often take many trials. Everyone has their own experiences and tails to tell. What I find is great oil, is somebody's worst nightmare.

I know I have bored guys on these forums with repetitious and redundant issues, I know QP on here I have irritated him many times, haha, but I am glad people like QP and others are here. They help put you in perspective and keep things real.

So keep the info coming, post whatever info you can find on DI stuff, the AudiZone bit I think is very interesting. Keep the info coming....


Jeff


The E888 G7 Gti motor is DI AND Port injection, so no valve deposit issues. Also the cam chain gremlins have been sorted from the G6 days.


Edited by Rguy (03/12/15 08:53 AM)

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#3662321 - 03/12/15 12:02 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Rguy]
VR6OOM Offline


Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 51
Loc: Florida
Not in North America.
_________________________
2014 VW Jetta Gen 3 EA888 1.8TSI
M1 0W-40 | 5k oci

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#3663021 - 03/13/15 01:43 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 3665
Loc: Florida
Even while requiring/recommending the highest quality synthetic oils and Top Tier fuels, many GDi applications are still suffering valve deposit issues (scan thier forums). The advent and adoption of dual injection by a few manufacturers is testament to this realization. Again, even while recommending the stoutest oils to begin with. As stated earlier here, maybe EGR/PCV design is more important.
_________________________
HYUNDAI
14 Sonata 2.4, RT5 10W-30 80% / FS syn 5W-20 20%
13 Santa Fe Sp 2.0T, Mobil Delvac 1300 15W-40

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#3663140 - 03/13/15 07:33 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
VR6OOM Offline


Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 51
Loc: Florida
I'm starting to ask myself the same question. Is it really worth the extra cost of e-free fuel, more frequent oci's and more expensive oil to delay the inevitable? I imagine the cost is the exact same. One option is over time and the other is all at once.
_________________________
2014 VW Jetta Gen 3 EA888 1.8TSI
M1 0W-40 | 5k oci

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