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#3428650 - 07/18/14 05:56 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: BMWTurboDzl]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1296
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Here is the thing...No one really knows. Can you prove to me otherwise? I doubt it. So logic tells you if there is more of something, it must be better than less of something. Maybe scientifically this may not be true to those in the know.

In reality no one knows. No tests have been done, no one has checked wear. Lubrizol has come the closest and did tests and tore engines apart and all they had to say is the Engines had less carbon build up. No mention of any wear difference.

In hindsight, as an automotive enthusiast I have found that during the most extreme conditions having oils that are packed with additives have shown to hold up very well. I wont get into my past cars and racing, but my VW may not be raced or tracked, but where I live the temps are generally the warmest in the nation, very dusty and dirty environment my VW is turbo charged and I am sure any extra additives would only help things, not hurt.

BUT there is always a BUT or we wouldn't be on this site. We all want to try out new things and see what happens. You may not be an automotive enthusiast to be on this site, but you are an oil enthusiast or you just wouldn't care.

From my records from last year this time All I can say is this thus far about MY 504 experience.

1. My MPG's have gone down 1 mpg to 24 vs 25 average last year.

2. Car does not turn over as easily. Ta ta ta ta start. Vs. Ta Start. (Battery is fine.)

3. No noted difference in Turbo Spool Up or Engine performance in any way.

So all I have to go on is the Lubrizol report in HOPES that the 504 actually does keep carbon depostis down. Other than that? I am paying for an oil that is 2x's more expensive, and needs to be changed 2x's as much. vs. the M1 0w40 I had in prior to my test.

EDYVW is using M1 ESP 5w30 and I am using PU 5w30 Euro L in mine. Maybe I will try the M1 ESP next time, I just can get the PU much cheaper than the M1 in 504 grade.

All I care about is the car. I want what is best for it. The thing is, I have NO IDEA if I am helping it, or hurting it at this point since most of the proof will not show up till many many miles later.

Just show me proof otherwise, if you dont, its just an opinion and we all know about those.


Dang you gotta love this site.
getdown


Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/18/14 05:59 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3428658 - 07/18/14 06:13 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1296
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.


EDYVW do you think the Castrol 0w40 would be as good as the GC? Well that sounds kinda weird to say now since the 0w40 is from Germany and the "GC" is now what Belgium made? Either way you know what I am getting at. haha.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3428740 - 07/18/14 08:25 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: edyvw]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3428771 - 07/18/14 08:47 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
BMWTurboDzl Offline


Registered: 04/15/10
Posts: 1289
Loc: Atlanta,GA
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
It's silly to equate "more additives " with "less wear "

All new VW'S run 504/407.


Here is the thing...No one really knows. Can you prove to me otherwise? I doubt it. So logic tells you if there is more of something, it must be better than less of something. Maybe scientifically this may not be true to those in the know.

In reality no one knows. No tests have been done, no one has checked wear. Lubrizol has come the closest and did tests and tore engines apart and all they had to say is the Engines had less carbon build up. No mention of any wear difference.

In hindsight, as an automotive enthusiast I have found that during the most extreme conditions having oils that are packed with additives have shown to hold up very well. I wont get into my past cars and racing, but my VW may not be raced or tracked, but where I live the temps are generally the warmest in the nation, very dusty and dirty environment my VW is turbo charged and I am sure any extra additives would only help things, not hurt.

BUT there is always a BUT or we wouldn't be on this site. We all want to try out new things and see what happens. You may not be an automotive enthusiast to be on this site, but you are an oil enthusiast or you just wouldn't care.

From my records from last year this time All I can say is this thus far about MY 504 experience.

1. My MPG's have gone down 1 mpg to 24 vs 25 average last year.

2. Car does not turn over as easily. Ta ta ta ta start. Vs. Ta Start. (Battery is fine.)

3. No noted difference in Turbo Spool Up or Engine performance in any way.

So all I have to go on is the Lubrizol report in HOPES that the 504 actually does keep carbon depostis down. Other than that? I am paying for an oil that is 2x's more expensive, and needs to be changed 2x's as much. vs. the M1 0w40 I had in prior to my test.

EDYVW is using M1 ESP 5w30 and I am using PU 5w30 Euro L in mine. Maybe I will try the M1 ESP next time, I just can get the PU much cheaper than the M1 in 504 grade.

All I care about is the car. I want what is best for it. The thing is, I have NO IDEA if I am helping it, or hurting it at this point since most of the proof will not show up till many many miles later.

Just show me proof otherwise, if you dont, its just an opinion and we all know about those.


Dang you gotta love this site.
getdown


Jeff


Here's a secret. UOA's don't always capture the AW additives used in low saps oils. It's a different type of additive. So basically you're making a decision off incomplete information.


Edited by BMWTurboDzl (07/18/14 08:48 PM)
_________________________
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#3429169 - 07/19/14 10:00 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1092
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.

Audi kept TFSI sign, while VW now uses TSI signature for same engines.
Basically, Audi A4 2.0TFS and VW 2.0TSI are same engines (though A4 makes more torque).
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3429170 - 07/19/14 10:02 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1092
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Delta
Don't know why VW had to start messing with stuff regarding the gassers. Far as I know they've been running a xw40wt for years. I'd be more worried about cam lobe/follower failures with a 504 5w30 than carbon buildup in the 2.0T DI. They fail even with 502 xw40wt oils... I know some guys run a 5w40 HDEO to combat that, but that's a different subject.

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.


EDYVW do you think the Castrol 0w40 would be as good as the GC? Well that sounds kinda weird to say now since the 0w40 is from Germany and the "GC" is now what Belgium made? Either way you know what I am getting at. haha.

Jeff

Hard to tell. I liked GC because it was unique grade in VW502.00 market and was readily available.
Meaning, it would reach operating temp faster, but it is still thick oil.
There is UOA on Used analysis forum. It seems very good.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3429315 - 07/19/14 01:49 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: dparm]
deven Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 2147
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: edyvw

I think that is predominantly TFSI issue, not TSI issue.
Also, because TSFI is fuel dilution monster, I would stick to 502.00 xW40 too Full-SAPS.
Weight of an oil in TSI is not an issue, when it comes to lubrication, I am still confident GC 0W30 is best oil in this application.



They have dilution problems? My supercharged 3.0TFSI V6 (that was tuned) didn't have issues.

I've talked to tuners that install both Stasis and APR tunes and they say that one of the big benefit of these tunes is reduction in fuel dilution and improve gas mileage as well. I've personally seen an increase in gas mileage with the APR tune in my Audi A6.
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#3429321 - 07/19/14 02:07 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: deven]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: deven
I've talked to tuners that install both Stasis and APR tunes and they say that one of the big benefit of these tunes is reduction in fuel dilution

I believe it. US stock tune is programmed to run rich to help comply with our EPA emissions requirements here. This in turn is responsible at least in part for all these fuel dilution issues we're seeing here. The same cars run leaner stock tunes in Europe because their emissions requirements are different. So, getting an aftermarket tune actually helps here, performance benefits aside.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3429695 - 07/19/14 10:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12540
Loc: Chicago, IL
Hmm, interesting. Mine had the Stasis v2 tune (supposedly the Revo tune rebranded since the companies merged). My UOAs came back fine on fuel, though the motor was pretty hard on the dealer-supplied Syntec 5w40.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

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#3432358 - 07/22/14 02:30 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Back to the original question of 502 vs 504, this guy seems to think the full SAPS ester-based 502 oil is actually better for DI...


Quote:
From other related tests I have always advocated the use of 502/505 spec oil (genuine full group IV or better base stocks only) on TFSI engines rather than the 504/507. 504/507 is marketed as superior oil but this is not the case. Many important ingredients were removed and replaced with inferior and more expensive alternatives in order to protect emission control components, such as the DPF, on VAG diesel engines. This doesn’t apply to VAG gasoline engines but to simplify long life oil changes 504/507 is now recommended across the board.


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread...l=1#post9938137


He claims to have 2 years worth of lab testing (funded by an engine manufacturer) to back it up, and wrote this piece:

http://www.oilem.com/turbo-fuel-stratifi...ild-up-problem/


_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3433758 - 07/23/14 08:05 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1296
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Very interesting links there. Took me a while to read but good info. The guy was basically saying to use a group 4 or higher oil since they produce less carbon build up.

At least that is what I got out of it.

Funny he mentions 504 being a "fuel savings" oil? I never heard that before.

Also no mention of the lubrizol report which PROVED 504 oil reduced carbon build up by 4%. Maybe this guy works for a competitor of Lubrizol?

So now what?


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3433983 - 07/24/14 12:45 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Mathson Offline


Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 66
Loc: North Europe
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Very interesting links there. Took me a while to read but good info. The guy was basically saying to use a group 4 or higher oil since they produce less carbon build up.



Well I think that's one of the reasons why 504/507 contains Grp IV usually more than 502/505. For at least formulations I've seen. It seems that Audizine guy is (intentionally?) not telling the complete picture. Wonder why is that.

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#3434089 - 07/24/14 07:23 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Mathson]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25921
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Mathson
Well I think that's one of the reasons why 504/507 contains Grp IV usually more than 502/505.

Never really observed this, but again, I wasn't paying attention. What makes you think that is the case?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

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#3434187 - 07/24/14 08:57 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1296
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I doubt 504 oils have any more higher group base stocks than 502. The guy is the posts on audizone is indeed very coy about things but it does make one curious especially if you own a VAG car like I do or any car with DI actually.

In therory the use of let's say an ester based oil like Redline that should take heat Bete should resist burn off more. We know this to be true by the 6% NOACK most Redline products have.

But in M1 defense romor is M1 5w30 ESP has a NOACK of 5.8% so in theory that should be better for burn off. I feel the M1 is group 3+ by gutt feeling so that theory just went out the window.

The guy in the post though does seem to agree that less additives seems to equal more wear. Specifically there is no mention and again he didn't mention the Lubrizol Report which makes me belief he works for a competitor.


Though the report does not compare wear mainly focuses on cleanliness. I imagine though if there was significant wear difference it would be noticeable.

504 oils are for fuel economy though? I think that's a stretch. Yeah maybe compared to Redline 5w40 it is. Not sure why that guy feels 504 is fuel saving oil.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3434196 - 07/24/14 09:07 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
vinu_neuro Offline


Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 966
Loc: Chicago / IN
Valve deposit resistance is part of the 504 spec.


[/quote]


Edited by vinu_neuro (07/24/14 09:08 AM)
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