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#3409078 - 06/28/14 09:39 AM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
bluesubie Offline


Registered: 08/04/03
Posts: 1845
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis
_________________________
'04 Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Motul X-cess 5W-40 | OEM Honeywell filter

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#3409185 - 06/28/14 12:28 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Most manufacturers come to my area to do durability testing
Here and Phoenix area. VW States to use 502 for North America. Maybe they feel that type of oil will withstand our climate better? Is what I'm getting at. If it's just a matter of gas quality wouldn't vw rather use an oil that would reduce operation costs and help projected reliability?

Just curious on that. If 504 was that good.
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2013 VW GTI

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#3409188 - 06/28/14 12:32 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: bluesubie]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX


I will find out. If my wear metals increase then back to 502 I go.


Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary

Secondly, it is easy to assume that by carrying out a UOA you will be able to determine how quickly the engine is wearing out. As well, if you change lubricant Brands you will be able to compare the wear metal uptake results and then make a balanced best lubricant choice to make your engine last longer.

Sadly that logic is seriously flawed.

Single pass (random) UOAs will provide some information regarding wear metals but unless you have a history of your engine’s performance up to around 1 million miles the results are simply that – UOA results! As an example a limit of 150ppm of Iron is a reality – after say 100k it means the lubricant should be changed and all is well. But what is the situation if you have 150ppm of Iron at 5k? Where would you look what would or could you do? So UOAs are really a diagnostic tool – one of many!



http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/used-oil-analysis/

-Dennis


So according to this I should just use Castrol since they worked with VW in testing of the cars engine life cycle?

I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?
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2013 VW GTI

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#3409248 - 06/28/14 01:58 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1022
Loc: Colorado Springs
Manufacturers are testing their cars all around the world. I see them testing here in Colorado Springs all the time at Pikes Peak.
So, VW 504.00/507.00 is very well capable oil to withstand 120-130f. I see no reason why not.
Take this into consideration.
Motul X-Clean 5W40 has HTHS of 3.64cp.
PU L 5W30 has HTHS 3.68cp.
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3409290 - 06/28/14 02:56 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Good point. Edyvw just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (06/28/14 02:57 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3409321 - 06/28/14 03:20 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25585
Loc: Illinoistan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (Spectro 15W-50)

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#3409332 - 06/28/14 03:38 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
If the lubrizol report is correct there is.
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2013 VW GTI

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#3409349 - 06/28/14 04:02 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Can you guys help me get this turbo into my GTI to see if 504 is REALLY good or not?

[img:left][/img]

He he Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3409359 - 06/28/14 04:19 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 1022
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
just surprises me to why VW wouldnt just use 504 do oil Changes every 5k and have less repairs and a better reliability record vs 10k oil changes with 502 to save money?

Because they don't want their cars to be seen as requiring more frequent maintenance than all the other Euro makes.

There is no evidence that doing 10K oil changes with 502 results in any better or worse reliability than doing 5K oil changes with 504.

That, and they probably have deal with Castrol. So they are getting dirt cheap Castrol 5W40, doing 10K OCI, they look like any other Euro manufacturer, plus, they take $600 on deposit cleaning.
Now, if they start to use 504.00/507.00 that means using more expensive oil, which means increasing price of oil change, plus doing it every 5K. So average customer that has no any idea what is going on under the hood, will ask these questions:
1. VW is in the start more expensive then comparable Honda Accord (same equipment etc).
2. Honda Accord (or similar car) requires any 5W30 synthetic oil, meaning, if you go to 10 minut oil change place, they will change your oil, put Mobil1 5W30, refill your fluids etc, everything for some 59.99. In the meantime, if VW starts using 504.00/507.00 they will at least charge it 99.99, plus you have to do it every 5K, plus only in dealership (we are talking here about average Joe).

I have friends that drive VW, we start discussing cars, and I get out of conversation ASAP as soon as I realize that they bought car just because it looks nice, nothing else. If I start talking about all this, they would probably sell their car. They are happy, they think that is how things work, and I just leave them with that.

On other hand, people that hang out here are enthusiasts, and the way we maintain our cars, they can make 400K if you ask me.
So, while this discussion is useful I think it is more along the lines that we just like to do something under the hood, so we are trying to find excuse to experiment cool


Edited by edyvw (06/28/14 04:20 PM)
_________________________
10' VW CC 2.0T (M1 0W40+Mann)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (M1 ESP 5W30+OEM Filter)

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#3409386 - 06/28/14 04:51 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11372
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I'm just saying I have 4 UOAs of M1 0w40 so I know what my universal averages will be. If all of a sudden my wear metals are all out of whack it's common sense is the oil. What else?

Those UOAs are only useful in comparison to the same lube, and definitely not with something of slightly different viscosity and varying chemistry. UOAs are not designed to compare oils, nor can they function as such.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3409426 - 06/28/14 05:37 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
So if UOAs can't prove one oil is better then another then what's the point? Just to see what your TBN is and if you have a coolant leak?

Edyvw your spot on I agree.

We tinker on stuff is why we do it but because of people like us cars are better today.

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (06/28/14 05:37 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3409481 - 06/28/14 07:07 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11372
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Pretty much - they're primarily to check for lubricant condemnation, not which lubricant is doing a better job keeping wear down.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3409563 - 06/28/14 09:38 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25585
Loc: Illinoistan
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If the lubrizol report is correct there is.

Yet your VW mechanic thinks your engine will require periodic carbon cleaning, regardless what oil you run.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (Spectro 15W-50)

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#3411899 - 07/01/14 06:57 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Quattro Pete]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Correct. The VW shop Foreman that worked on my car said in his experience the valve cleanings will need to be done. It just varies by personal driving style, maintenance, fuel type used and oil.

Eventually it WILL need to get done.

Just part of life having a DI motor.

Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#3411901 - 07/01/14 06:58 PM Re: VW 502 to 504 really worth it? [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1287
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Anyone know the Noack of PU Euro 5w30 L by chance?

Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (07/01/14 06:59 PM)
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2013 VW GTI

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