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#3401419 - 06/19/14 11:06 AM Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi
k24a4 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 646
Loc: MA
2004 Accord EX I4
134444mi on engine
8076 miles on oil (including Polar Vortex)
PureOne filter
Make-up oil: 20ounces
Driving: 60/40 hwy/city

Aluminum up a tick. Viscosity off by quite a bit. This was definitely 5w-20 SM. However, I did add a can of LubroMoly I had around at start of OC. shrug

RE: Aluminum, I have not done a valve adjustment on this car yet, perhaps I should.




_________________________
'04 Accord I4 EX 5-man 140500mi PU 5w-20 SM P1
'93 Miata 5-man 122450mi PU SN 5w-30 P1
'95 Kawasaki ZG1000
'93 Honda ST1100


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#3401428 - 06/19/14 11:22 AM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8614
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
You added a can of solid moly and the moly ppm is only .03% by weight? Guessing there must be a lot in the filter and a lot out the pipe, but I don't know the mass of Moly in the, is it, 300ml Lubrimoly can to do a proper calculation.
_________________________
2014 Nissan Note S 5MT, OC#1 1630mi-PGB 5W30+NISSAN Mexico 65F0C Filter
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#1 4361mi-VSP 0W20(?)+ Blue service "FRAM" Filter

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#3401441 - 06/19/14 11:41 AM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
gregk24 Offline


Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 2935
Loc: FL, USA
Thats pretty high aluminum for a Honda K24. Not condemning by any means though. That Honda 0w20 you previously used has high aluminum as well....was that the blend or full synthetic version, I see its the idumitu made because of the high moly.
_________________________
2006 Honda Accord LX 2.4 i-vtec 125K
Mobil 1 AFE 0w20
Fram Ultra 7317

2005 Chevy Uplander 3.5 117K
Mobil 1 HM 5w30
Fram Ultra 3387

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#3401448 - 06/19/14 11:52 AM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
gpshumway Offline


Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 415
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
The Idemitsu high moly oil was only full-syn. The blend 0w20 is from Philips 66 and has low levels of moly.

Interesting you're seeing high Al in this engine. I've got the same issue with the R18 in my Civic. What's the plausible source of Al related to valve adjustment? Aren't the guides bronze? The follower mechanisms should be steel, and roller.
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2007 Subaru WRX
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#3401463 - 06/19/14 12:15 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: gpshumway]
k24a4 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 646
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: gpshumway
The Idemitsu high moly oil was only full-syn. The blend 0w20 is from Philips 66 and has low levels of moly.

Interesting you're seeing high Al in this engine. I've got the same issue with the R18 in my Civic. What's the plausible source of Al related to valve adjustment? Aren't the guides bronze? The follower mechanisms should be steel, and roller.


Correct, the 0w-20 was full synthetic.

Because the head is Aluminum I was assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that valves out of lash might contribute to higher Al levels. That said, Al falls within the normal range and I am not that concerned. FWIW, Mikeysoft tested the FF on his '13 Accord using (3) labs, his Al was (20) using Cat and Als (wix), (7) with Blackstone. Mikeysoft FF UOA My first UOA on this car was through Blackstone, with Al at (2)so it could be a lab thing. First UOA

My confidence that the engine will outlast the body shall not be breached by a few ppm of Aluminum. LOL

Forgot to add in the original post that the current fill is PP SM 5w-20, no moly additive.


Edited by k24a4 (06/19/14 12:23 PM)
_________________________
'04 Accord I4 EX 5-man 140500mi PU 5w-20 SM P1
'93 Miata 5-man 122450mi PU SN 5w-30 P1
'95 Kawasaki ZG1000
'93 Honda ST1100


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#3401502 - 06/19/14 01:04 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
Hokiefyd Offline


Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 11496
Loc: North Carolina
I would not expect valve lash to influence aluminum in the oil. Neither the valves nor the lash adjuster in the rocker arm (which is what pushes against the valve) nor the roller follower in the rocker arm are aluminum. I believe that the rocker arm itself may be, but the arm itself doesn't touch anything in the valvetrain.

Even 14 ppm of aluminum is pretty low. Should it be lower with "only" 8,000 miles in a Honda K24? Eh...it has been before, but it's certainly not at alarming levels. In fact, TBN is very healthy and other wear metals are notably low.

What kind of air filter are you using? Your silicon levels are consistently very low.
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Jason

2008 Honda CR-V EX-L (QSUD 5W-30)
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#3401609 - 06/19/14 03:39 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Rule of thumb number one,if its harder then aluminium stay away from it
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#3401620 - 06/19/14 03:49 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: yvon_la]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2679
Loc: Upper Midwest
Say what?

Originally Posted By: yvon_la
Rule of thumb number one,if its harder then aluminium stay away from it
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 306K
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#3402086 - 06/20/14 08:58 AM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 8614
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
The paired rocker finger followers on a VTEC may rub against each other - though this is low velocity compared to the piston/ wall interaction. I worry about my 1.5L VTEC as the rockers are offset L shaped (!)from the can to stem centerline and will have a rocking couple in their HS motion.
_________________________
2014 Nissan Note S 5MT, OC#1 1630mi-PGB 5W30+NISSAN Mexico 65F0C Filter
2015 Forester 6MT 5Door, OC#1 4361mi-VSP 0W20(?)+ Blue service "FRAM" Filter

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#3402140 - 06/20/14 10:40 AM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: ARCOgraphite]
k24a4 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 646
Loc: MA
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I would not expect valve lash to influence aluminum in the oil. Neither the valves nor the lash adjuster in the rocker arm (which is what pushes against the valve) nor the roller follower in the rocker arm are aluminum. I believe that the rocker arm itself may be, but the arm itself doesn't touch anything in the valvetrain.

Even 14 ppm of aluminum is pretty low. Should it be lower with "only" 8,000 miles in a Honda K24? Eh...it has been before, but it's certainly not at alarming levels. In fact, TBN is very healthy and other wear metals are notably low.

What kind of air filter are you using? Your silicon levels are consistently very low.


Thanks as always for the info, Jason.

The air filter is a Purolator Classic with about 18,000miles on it.

Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
You added a can of solid moly and the moly ppm is only .03% by weight? Guessing there must be a lot in the filter and a lot out the pipe, but I don't know the mass of Moly in the, is it, 300ml Lubrimoly can to do a proper calculation.


I did add the whole can, and yes, I expected the level to be higher than what was reported.

I'm going to postulate something that may seem ridiculous: looking over the UOA's, every oil that had high Moly (Honda 0w-20, this batch of Ultra w/ Moly additive) turned in higher Aluminum levels. Is this coincidence? Or could the Moly be giving a false positive given the Wix testing methods? The Ultra used for this run was the same as the last, and the driving very similar. The only differences were the colder Winter months and addition of Lubro-Moly this run.
_________________________
'04 Accord I4 EX 5-man 140500mi PU 5w-20 SM P1
'93 Miata 5-man 122450mi PU SN 5w-30 P1
'95 Kawasaki ZG1000
'93 Honda ST1100


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#3402342 - 06/20/14 03:25 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
gpshumway Offline


Registered: 06/18/08
Posts: 415
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: k24a4
Correct, the 0w-20 was full synthetic.

Because the head is Aluminum I was assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that valves out of lash might contribute to higher Al levels. That said, Al falls within the normal range and I am not that concerned. FWIW, Mikeysoft tested the FF on his '13 Accord using (3) labs, his Al was (20) using Cat and Als (wix), (7) with Blackstone. Mikeysoft FF UOA My first UOA on this car was through Blackstone, with Al at (2)so it could be a lab thing. First UOA



I'm more concerned that the high Al levels in my Civic constitute piston wear or bearing wear (modern bearings are soft AL, not Pb). I don't think lash is a likely cause, though I could be wrong. My car makes no valve noise, and that's the criteria in the manual for adjusting the lash early. I've only got 50k on my car.

I saw Mikeysoft's UOAs and that has prompted me to send my latest sample to two labs. I've got the OAI/Polaris one back now, and I expect Blackstone by this afternoon. I'll post them when the Blackstone report comes in. We'll see how different the Al levels are, the OAI report shows ~20ppm, just like the previous two.

Quote:
My confidence that the engine will outlast the body shall not be breached by a few ppm of Aluminum. LOL

Forgot to add in the original post that the current fill is PP SM 5w-20, no moly additive.


LOL indeed, I repeat that to myself every time I see a UOA on the car. I'll be interested to see how the PP does.

I actually sent my two samples in early, just as the OLM hit 10% and I'm basing my next fill on the results. Given the high Al in the OAI sample, I'm going to use M1 AFE 0w30 for my next fill instead of M1 AFE 0w20. I figure increasing the viscosity but maintaining the same additives should be a good test to see if higher viscosity can help.
_________________________
2007 Subaru WRX
2011 Honda Civic EX

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#3402391 - 06/20/14 04:42 PM Re: Penn Ultra 5w20 sm '04 Accord I4, 8076mi [Re: k24a4]
k24a4 Offline


Registered: 11/12/09
Posts: 646
Loc: MA
I look forward to your reports, GP. The relatively high (Al) readings in your Civic are a head-scratcher.
_________________________
'04 Accord I4 EX 5-man 140500mi PU 5w-20 SM P1
'93 Miata 5-man 122450mi PU SN 5w-30 P1
'95 Kawasaki ZG1000
'93 Honda ST1100


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