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#3266484 - 02/01/14 04:16 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14554
Loc: Sunny Florida
Central planning has huge weaknesses, and China's highly volatile leadership makes a lot of good decisions and bad ones.

It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal, their problems are deep and wide. But when you have a completely centralized Government with no balance or dissent it is easy to do what you want anytime, anywhere.

"Get those college kids out of that square NOW!"
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3266547 - 02/01/14 07:22 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: SteveSRT8]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26340
Loc: a prison island
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
It may be a bit late to proclaim them some kind of 'green' ideal



never have...

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#3266638 - 02/01/14 09:24 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14554
Loc: Sunny Florida
^^^Never say never...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3399480 - 06/17/14 03:58 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2551
Loc: usa
I'm pretty sure that it has been said before, but let me debunk some of this:
1) Who exactly will be starving without corn to eat?
Ethanol is made from sugar, in the case of corn from the fructose as in high-fructose corn syrup - yes, the nasty stuff that you want to avoid in a healthy diet. And there exactly lies my point.

High-fructose corn syrup has been, or is in the process of being, replaced with alternatives like Splenda or Stevia in things like candy, sweets and sodas. Because it's better for your health, and you know it.

Noone wants to take your sugar candy away of course, nor does anyone want to take away your corn on a cob. But all that land that has been used for the production of high-fructose corn syrup has to be used somehow: Like making Ethanol for cars, as an example.

Secondly, making Ethanol from sugar (or sugar containing things such as corn mash) is known as the "first-generation Ethanol production process". The second-generation process uses cellulose, which means that you can have your corn cob, but it will still be possible to turn the leave-y stuff and the stems around it into Ethanol. The third-generation process uses algae that turn CO2, air and water from the atmosphere into Ethanol. Personally, I don't think that this will take away your Nagi roll Sushi, either. And if it does, just eat California roll instead. And as you may know: Dino oil are compressed algae, then seasoned for millions of years. This takes the millions of years out of the equation.

2) Oil is a frickin' ending resource
Pennsylvania and Texas crude (as well as Brent and Saudi crude, for that matter) are getting less and less - do you really want to burn that stuff in your engine in the form of gasoline or diesel, or do you want to keep those 3K OCIs going?

Long story short: Make yourself accustomed to the idea that Ethanol content in gasoline, as well as Biodiesel will increase rather than decrease over time. And at some point (probably beyond our lifetime), even engine oil will be made from vegetable oil. Because dino oil doesn't grow on trees.

Lastly, but not leastly:
3) Does my car use 33% more Ethanol than gasoline?
Nope. Seriously.

It is true that in theory the energy content of Ethanol is 33% less than gasoline. But here's the kicker: Ethanol has an octane rating of >96.

For example, take a theoretical, naturally aspired 4-cylinder flex engine of 1.2L displacement with 16 valves, a compression ratio somewhere at 11:1 and 100HP on both gasoline and Ethanol.

The ignition system will tune itself according to the fuel in the tank, and if the engine would produce 100HP on gasoline, it would produce roughly 110HP on Ethanol.

But, like most production cars, it has the same 100HP rating on both fuels. Where did the 10HP go? The engine gets leaned down.

As you may know, leaning down an engine will increase the combustion temperature. But atomizing fuel cools the air-fuel mixture down, and as more volume of Ethanol is injected than gasoline, those effects will cancel each other and you can lean the engine down to it's original rating of 100HP.

That's why on a properly tuned flex vehicle with a naturally aspired engine the real-world difference between E5 and E85 is not ±33%, but ±10-15%. On a turbo-equipped engine, it may as well be ±1-5% (as an all-Ethanol engine would not have a compression ratio of 11:1, but something in the ball park of 14:1, which can be accomplished by higher boost pressure).

I know that the whole Ethanol thing is a little hard to comprehend, but I hope that you enjoyed reading this little write up. Ethanol as a fuel is definitively an interesting subject that should be approached with an open mind. Whatever makes this world the best of all places for our children, amirite?


Edited by tommygunn (06/17/14 03:59 AM)

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#3399482 - 06/17/14 04:06 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26340
Loc: a prison island
A tad dripping with condescension...but:
* if you honestly think that there's enough land to offset/replace oil, even for the US, with perpetual growth in consumption, I've got a bridge to sell you.
* some of the figures that you quote defy science, although the directions of some of the arguments are in the correct direction, the conclusions are off.
* Our children will be competing with China and India for quality of life, not just food, and people (not your claim) who state that the third world will be happy energy slaves to the west have rocks in their head.

Won'y touch the HFCS straw.

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#3399909 - 06/17/14 03:51 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2551
Loc: usa
Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

Science is at the point of injecting Ethanol directly into the cylinders of highly-turbo charged engines to rival the efficiency of diesel engines: http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/small_engine.html

Like any other engine, you could run this one completely on Ethanol as well, of course.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.


Edited by tommygunn (06/17/14 03:57 PM)

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#3399934 - 06/17/14 04:25 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: tommygunn]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2488
Loc: Upper Midwest
Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 188K
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1999 Toyota Sienna, 302K
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#3400172 - 06/17/14 10:08 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 939
Loc: Florida
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3400324 - 06/18/14 06:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14554
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: hatt
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.


Since unicorns are so hard to find I have simply been grinding up possum teeth...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3401725 - 06/19/14 06:53 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: kschachn]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2551
Loc: usa
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?



That would be a natural bloom of the right blue-green algae somewhere around Fiji.

Quote:
Researchers from a company called Algenol have cultured genetically modified cyanobacteria (read: blue-green algae) in sea water inside a clear plastic enclosure so that they first make sugar (pyruvate) from CO2 and the water via photosynthesis. Then, the bacteria secrete ethanol from the cell into the salt water. As the day progresses, and the solar radiation intensifies, ethanol concentrations build up and the ethanol itself evaporates onto the roof of the enclosure. As the sun recedes, evaporated ethanol and water condenses into droplets, which run along the plastic walls and into ethanol collectors, from where it is extracted from the enclosure with the water and ethanol separated outside the enclosure. As of March 2013, Algenol was claiming to have tested its technology in Florida and to have achieved yields of 9,000 US gallons per acre per year. This could potentially meet US demands for ethanol in gasoline in 2025, assuming an E30 blend, from an area of around half the size of California’s San Bernardino County, requiring less than one tenth of the area than ethanol from other biomass, such as corn, and only very limited amounts of fresh water.


I also learnt something new today: A) There is already vegetable-based engine oil from Renewable Lubricants (and even threads about it on BITOG) and B) If you bake those algae in a reactor, you'll obtain something with the same properties as crude-based base oil: http://www.icis.com/resources/news/2014/...tinue-progress/

Quote:
Third, there are novel base oils obtained from algae that can be produced in industrial reactors and have properties matching those of petroleum and synthetic base oils.


Those Algae are even more interesting than corn-based Ethanol. smile


Edited by tommygunn (06/19/14 06:57 PM)

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#3401922 - 06/20/14 12:20 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26340
Loc: a prison island
I love algae as an idea, and think that places where CO2 is rich, and there's low grade waste heat aplenty would be the ideal places for them to grow well...algae does, however, have a couple of other needs. Firstly they need fertiliser, like most plants

Like other plants, they need sunlight

As they grow, the soup becomes murky, and sun doesn't filter in (like Algae in a lake, then they stop photsynthesising)...second, there's only 1.4KW odd hits the surface of the land, which means at 100% conversion efficiency, a square yard can make the equivalent of about half a pint of gas...at 100%. Plants aren't that good

Algae is great, should be a part of the solution, but unfortunately proponents of technologies that want to attract investors and their money oversell the benefits of everything, algae, solar freakin' roads, and fracking included

Coal seam methane produces are investigating algae in the brine ponds to remove nutrients and make another byproduct...a win/win

It's part of the solution, and the solution will be made up of parts

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#3403171 - 06/21/14 05:23 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: Grebbler]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 955
Loc: Kellogg, IA
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.

Ethanol can never totally replace oil based fuel, but that is really a "who cares" idea. it does have some advantages, especially when the engine is designed around ethanol as the primary fuel and not an afterthought like the flex fuel engines we have now.

I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3404440 - 06/23/14 10:21 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
tommygunn Offline


Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2551
Loc: usa
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.


If you look at Brazil: That's exactly what's happening already.

Owner's of Flex cars down there have a nifty little table that has the gasoline price on one side and E100 price plus 33% on the other. If ethanol is scarce and the price rises or gas prices drop, they fill their tank with gasoline. If it's harvest season for sugar cane and ethanol is abundant and inexpensive, they fill their tank with ethanol. That's the great thing about flex cars: They take both without a problem whatsoever. Triflex cars even take Russian natural gas on top of that.

We have something similar than that table, too, when E85 changes to E70 during the winter. It's not only more convenient because someone blends the least expensive mix for us, but also serves the purpose of better cold starting when the weather gets colder.

---
In my "condescension dripping" post above, I've also forgotten another thing:

4) But I heard that E85 deteriorates hoses in my fuel system.

This is something that comes via Brazil to us. This holds somewhat true for E100 with hydrous ethanol, meaning that it contains approximately 4% water, and water will rust metals and aluminum. Our E10 and E85 are however made from water-free, anhydrous ethanol. As your gas tank is a sealed system that does not allow (moist) air in, it will also stay anhydrous while in your vehicle and not cause oxidation of the intake manifold and metal tubing.

If you look at any car that was manufactured after 2000, you will see that A) they don't have any metal tubing or connectors at all but lines made from hard plastic, and B) that the intake manifold is also made from black plastic instead of metal. As a general rule of thumb you can also assume that if the intake manifold is made from plastic, your car was designed with ethanol in mind and is guaranteed to never suffer from any deterioration in the fuel system whatsoever. Fuel tanks have also been made from plastic since at least 1990 for safety reasons and will not deteriorate from ethanol, either.

It also removes removes deposits in the area of the inlet manifold and inlet valves. A car on E85 does not need injection cleaner, because E85 is itself an injection cleaner.

5) It breaks my fuel pump, does it not?
Again, maybe on E100. But E85 contains enough gasoline to properly lubricate older fuel pumps, and if your car has the black plastic inlet manifold, it will also have a PTFE/Teflon bearing in the fuel pump that doesn't need lubrication whatsoever.

---

It would be so convenient if more cars had those downsized, turbo-charged engines with a proper tune that runs on anything from straight gasoline to E85 while maximizing fuel economy for a given HP and torque output, and gas stations that would just blend a mix that gives you the most miles per dollar rather than four nozzles with E5, E10, E22 and E85. Yeah, that would be great.


Edited by tommygunn (06/23/14 10:34 AM)

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#3404472 - 06/23/14 11:05 AM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 939
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.
I don't think there's a more closed minded group than "scientists." Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might. Maybe because they're all on a similar payroll.
_________________________
2013 F150 5.0, PU 10w-30, FL500s
2010 Camry 2.5, PP 5w-30, Wix 57047

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#3404855 - 06/23/14 06:58 PM Re: E-85. I think I'm a convert. [Re: hatt]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11182
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: hatt
Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might.

Actually, they all try to discredit each other, and that's because they're competing for the same research dollars and the same space on the pages of journals. wink
_________________________
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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