E-85. I think I'm a convert.

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Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

Science is at the point of injecting Ethanol directly into the cylinders of highly-turbo charged engines to rival the efficiency of diesel engines: http://web.mit.edu/erc/spotlights/small_engine.html

Like any other engine, you could run this one completely on Ethanol as well, of course.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.
 
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Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?

Originally Posted By: tommygunn
Algae grow in water, not on land. And that's a huge resource.

I'm just in for engine technology, so I couldn't really tell you anything about societal issues and what we're competing or collaborating on, nor with whom, really. But Algae that turn CO2 into Ethanol somewhere in the ocean don't seem to harm anyone for that matter. And for those kind of issues, electric cars powered by wind and water generated energy seem more appropriate anyways.
 
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
I like to add a little ground unicorn horn to my corn ethanol. 127% more magic in every tank.


Since unicorns are so hard to find I have simply been grinding up possum teeth...
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Of course, the problem is that algae don't turn CO2 into ethanol. Significant resources and energy are required to subsequently get to ethanol.

Also, does the right type of algae grow in salt water?

640px-2010_Filamentous_Cyanobacteria_Bloom_near_Fiji.jpg


That would be a natural bloom of the right blue-green algae somewhere around Fiji.

Quote:
Researchers from a company called Algenol have cultured genetically modified cyanobacteria (read: blue-green algae) in sea water inside a clear plastic enclosure so that they first make sugar (pyruvate) from CO2 and the water via photosynthesis. Then, the bacteria secrete ethanol from the cell into the salt water. As the day progresses, and the solar radiation intensifies, ethanol concentrations build up and the ethanol itself evaporates onto the roof of the enclosure. As the sun recedes, evaporated ethanol and water condenses into droplets, which run along the plastic walls and into ethanol collectors, from where it is extracted from the enclosure with the water and ethanol separated outside the enclosure. As of March 2013, Algenol was claiming to have tested its technology in Florida and to have achieved yields of 9,000 US gallons per acre per year. This could potentially meet US demands for ethanol in gasoline in 2025, assuming an E30 blend, from an area of around half the size of California’s San Bernardino County, requiring less than one tenth of the area than ethanol from other biomass, such as corn, and only very limited amounts of fresh water.


I also learnt something new today: A) There is already vegetable-based engine oil from Renewable Lubricants (and even threads about it on BITOG) and B) If you bake those algae in a reactor, you'll obtain something with the same properties as crude-based base oil: http://www.icis.com/resources/news/2014/...tinue-progress/

Quote:
Third, there are novel base oils obtained from algae that can be produced in industrial reactors and have properties matching those of petroleum and synthetic base oils.


Those Algae are even more interesting than corn-based Ethanol.
smile.gif
 
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I love algae as an idea, and think that places where CO2 is rich, and there's low grade waste heat aplenty would be the ideal places for them to grow well...algae does, however, have a couple of other needs. Firstly they need fertiliser, like most plants

Like other plants, they need sunlight

As they grow, the soup becomes murky, and sun doesn't filter in (like Algae in a lake, then they stop photsynthesising)...second, there's only 1.4KW odd hits the surface of the land, which means at 100% conversion efficiency, a square yard can make the equivalent of about half a pint of gas...at 100%. Plants aren't that good

Algae is great, should be a part of the solution, but unfortunately proponents of technologies that want to attract investors and their money oversell the benefits of everything, algae, solar freakin' roads, and fracking included

Coal seam methane produces are investigating algae in the brine ponds to remove nutrients and make another byproduct...a win/win

It's part of the solution, and the solution will be made up of parts
 
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.

Ethanol can never totally replace oil based fuel, but that is really a "who cares" idea. it does have some advantages, especially when the engine is designed around ethanol as the primary fuel and not an afterthought like the flex fuel engines we have now.

I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I want it all... ethanol, NG, propane, butanol, gasoline, diesel, etc, etc etc. Those that live in areas where ethanol is produced, ethanol specific engines would be the optimal choice. Those that live in areas where gas is more cost effective, then choose gas engines. Those that got access to numerous outlets of NG, then have at it. Butanol can be moved thru traditional pipelines whereas ethanol can't. This should not be a one thing or the other type of thing, We should be able to take advantage of all potential fuels. Drill it, pump it, brew it, make it out of trash and sewage, wring it out of algae, whatever. More fuel of all kinds for everyone.


If you look at Brazil: That's exactly what's happening already.

Owner's of Flex cars down there have a nifty little table that has the gasoline price on one side and E100 price plus 33% on the other. If ethanol is scarce and the price rises or gas prices drop, they fill their tank with gasoline. If it's harvest season for sugar cane and ethanol is abundant and inexpensive, they fill their tank with ethanol. That's the great thing about flex cars: They take both without a problem whatsoever. Triflex cars even take Russian natural gas on top of that.

We have something similar than that table, too, when E85 changes to E70 during the winter. It's not only more convenient because someone blends the least expensive mix for us, but also serves the purpose of better cold starting when the weather gets colder.

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In my "condescension dripping" post above, I've also forgotten another thing:

4) But I heard that E85 deteriorates hoses in my fuel system.

This is something that comes via Brazil to us. This holds somewhat true for E100 with hydrous ethanol, meaning that it contains approximately 4% water, and water will rust metals and aluminum. Our E10 and E85 are however made from water-free, anhydrous ethanol. As your gas tank is a sealed system that does not allow (moist) air in, it will also stay anhydrous while in your vehicle and not cause oxidation of the intake manifold and metal tubing.

If you look at any car that was manufactured after 2000, you will see that A) they don't have any metal tubing or connectors at all but lines made from hard plastic, and B) that the intake manifold is also made from black plastic instead of metal. As a general rule of thumb you can also assume that if the intake manifold is made from plastic, your car was designed with ethanol in mind and is guaranteed to never suffer from any deterioration in the fuel system whatsoever. Fuel tanks have also been made from plastic since at least 1990 for safety reasons and will not deteriorate from ethanol, either.

It also removes removes deposits in the area of the inlet manifold and inlet valves. A car on E85 does not need injection cleaner, because E85 is itself an injection cleaner.

5) It breaks my fuel pump, does it not?
Again, maybe on E100. But E85 contains enough gasoline to properly lubricate older fuel pumps, and if your car has the black plastic inlet manifold, it will also have a PTFE/Teflon bearing in the fuel pump that doesn't need lubrication whatsoever.

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It would be so convenient if more cars had those downsized, turbo-charged engines with a proper tune that runs on anything from straight gasoline to E85 while maximizing fuel economy for a given HP and torque output, and gas stations that would just blend a mix that gives you the most miles per dollar rather than four nozzles with E5, E10, E22 and E85. Yeah, that would be great.
 
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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
And I have not quite bought the oil is a finite resource idea that seems to get floated frequently. 30 years ago, there was a hue and cry that we would run out of oil shortly after the turn of the century. We have more oil than ever before. The mathematics doesn't quite work that oil came primarily from dinosaurs. There is a logical idea that has gained ground, albeit slowly, that oil is just a carbon based outcome of internal earth processes. Oil is continually being "made" in the earth's interior. We just have to locate where it is pocketing up under ground. And we seem to find new areas all the time, even as the more traditional oil locations are slowing down.
I don't think there's a more closed minded group than "scientists." Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might. Maybe because they're all on a similar payroll.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Once someone proposes a theory almost all latch on with all their might.

Actually, they all try to discredit each other, and that's because they're competing for the same research dollars and the same space on the pages of journals.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak

Actually, they all try to discredit each other, and that's because they're competing for the same research dollars and the same space on the pages of journals.
wink.gif


The research dollars are what make them closed minded. They're being funded to prove what the institution funding them wants proven. In many/most cases that's proving what's trendy at the moment. Of course you always have a few rouges actually doing unbiased research. Those are the important scientists.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Of course you always have a few rouges actually doing unbiased research. Those are the important scientists.


Ilike that quote...
 
I had nothing better to do and did some experimentation for you (and for me, too, of course).

My car has, according to the manual, the following consumption figures:

City: 24MPG
H/W: 43.5MPG
Combined: 33.5MPG

With my best "hypermiling skills", I always got around 37.5MPG-ish in the city on E5, and also something around that on E10.

The engine does not have an anti-knock sensor to increase the performance on higher octane fuel, which would further improve the mileage on E85.

I had one of these E85 conversion boxes (A FlexiTune AutoX4 from Sweden, as they were about the first ones money could buy and reasonably priced a couple of years ago) laying around somewhere, and while the new ones come with a harness that just clips onto the fuel injectors in like a minute, for mine you have to build your own harness. Luckily, the fuel injectors had a central plug that feeds all the injectors and has +12V on it, so two Superseal plugs and a ground strip did the job.

For completeness' sake: It was in fixed E50-E85 mode, the lambda probe was not connected to give a result similar to the newer boxes that don't even bother with adapting to the actual air/fuel ratio for one reason or another.

I drove the car completely empty and filled it up with E85, drove it again until the reserve light went on solid, then I drove to the gas station and added 5.5 gallons of E85. I proceeded to drive normally until the light came on solid again, at which point odometer read 170.8 miles.

170.8mi/5.5gal = 31.05MPG.

Compared to gasoline, the mileage decrease by 6.45MPG or 17.2%, and that's a conservative figure as I drove with the reserve light on about 10mi to the gas station.

As far as driving, idle and cold start go: You couldn't tell a difference. The engine does however have noticeably more bottom end torque, likely because of an increased quality of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder at low revs due to longer injection intervals (and hence the 17% instead of 30% decrease in mileage).

It does work fine, and the mystical 33% figure is, at least for this particular car, [censored]. To the contrary, I even feel that I could match the 33.5MPG figure from the manual with some effort.

This must be the most scientific test, like, ever. Come on, it's the Internets.
 
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I almost forgot the most important:

The car requires "unleaded with at least 91 AKI (Premium)".

Real-world prices, for good measure, are: >$4.50 for a gallon of regular in LA, $2.39 for a gallon of E85 in Michigan. If you forget about the Midwest with their outrageously cheap E85 for a moment and take California as an example, then the current average gas prices are:

$4.19 for regular
$4.30 for premium

while the gallon of E85 goes for $3.50, which gives an adjusted price of $3.50*1.17 = $4.095 for E85.

Yada, yada, yada: 2.27% more miles for every dollar spend on fuel, compared to regular. 4.78% compared to premium. On a random, [censored] car that didn't even came out of the factory as a flex vehicle (or maybe even because of it). And based on numbers for a place where the spread between E85 and gas prices is the worst-case scenario in the entire country.

Some places in the Midwest have a price spread that would give an increase in MP$ of over 50%, to give you an idea of how fair my calculation is.

Long story short: E85 can be worth it economically outside of the Midwest in a car with a naturally-aspired engine, too. And the car has more power, and is more fun to drive, as well. What else could you possibly ask for, +30HP and +30ft.lbs when on E85? Saab did it with the Biopower engines.
 
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E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
E85 produces less NOx, less Sulphur, less acid, less soot, doesn't keep dilution (full evaporation at 78 C not 150 as gas). The piston rings stay cleaner for hundres of thousands of miles (no need of MMO or seafoams)... The engine oil doesn't sludge. So, if you like a cleaner engine and environment plus fossil fuel savings, E85 is the way to go. Any car 2008 and and newer with yellow fuel cap doesn't need parts convertion, even though isn't an original factory FFV.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/s...o-gasoline.html


There's lots more, just Google.

The kool aid drinkers will tell you that it only gives off butterflies and moonbeams, but as usual the facts are a bit less rosy...
 
Yes, you broght a pretty good article SRT8! Even though that's a Sazonal situation leaded by fuel prices. No doubt that high use of ethanol makes the car cleaner and the city a better place.
 
At least Brazil's sugarcane ethanol makes sense. Energy produced to energy used is over 8/1. Compared to corn's 1.3ish/1.
 
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