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#3399443 - 06/17/14 12:37 AM So THAT'S why there's a wobble
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 787
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I've been wondering the past couple weeks what's been with the wobble in my front end. I was 99% sure it was a tire, I just hadn't looked at them in a couple weeks. I figured they were out of balance and was just gonna swap the 2 up front. I had to do it at night cause it's 105 degrees in the day time. These tires have around 40k miles on them and are Bridgestone Insignia se200's. 3 1/2 years old. I see no quality in these tires and will not run a Bridgestone again, I've seen them die prematurely on other cars as well. And yes I know at 40k they are due for replacement regardless and the bubble isn't just the reason I won't run Bridgestone's, these tires just all around suck.



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#3399450 - 06/17/14 12:51 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
sxg6 Offline


Registered: 05/23/04
Posts: 2159
Loc: CT
I'm interested to hear what people say the cause of this was. Was the tire properly inflated while it was in service?

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#3399454 - 06/17/14 12:59 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: sxg6]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 787
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: sxg6
I'm interested to hear what people say the cause of this was. Was the tire properly inflated while it was in service?


Me too. Phoenix doesn't have bad streets either, not really any potholes. I've had the car since 185k miles in November. Since then I keep them at 36 psi and let them run down to around 34 then pump them back up. They weren't low when I bought the car and I assume the guy took care of it pretty good, he spent over $2,100 (yes, $2,100) in May of 2013 getting a power steering pump, radiator flush and hoses, transmission flush, all 4 new struts and an alignment.

I bought the car 6 months after he did that for $1,700 wink

Also he got a Maaco paint job about 6 months prior.
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#3399458 - 06/17/14 01:14 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
spasm3 Offline


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 3407
Loc: north carolina
whats the date code? looks like it has some age on it!
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#3399461 - 06/17/14 01:29 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: spasm3]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 787
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: spasm3
whats the date code? looks like it has some age on it!


Date code is (5110)

So right at 3 1/2 years.
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#3399515 - 06/17/14 06:35 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Kira Offline


Registered: 08/19/10
Posts: 991
Loc: Champlain/Hudson Valley
Hello, I'm with you Nick. In my case Bridgestones (a set of 4 Turanza with Serenity) which were touted as the cat's meow-and priced to match-disappointed the dickens out of me.

How an irregularity gets built into a tire is anybody's guess.
I was told by a seasoned tire guy that tires don't necessarily wear evenly. I think that's a good tidbit to remember.

You're far from being the first guy to experience a crooked, wavy tire let alone one made with a less-than-perfect batch of rubber compound. Kira

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#3399520 - 06/17/14 06:42 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Rolla07 Offline


Registered: 11/05/11
Posts: 1607
Loc: MTL, CANADA
They look past finished to me...what tread depth is left?
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#3399527 - 06/17/14 06:51 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Oldmoparguy1 Online   content


Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 3950
Loc: Charlotte, NC
I had 2 tires do that out of a set of 4. Sam's Club Goodrich T/A's .
They are ~8 years old, but I also have a similar set of Sam's GY's about 9 YO that are still good. Both sets have 4-5/32" tread and even wear.

Wayne
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#3399538 - 06/17/14 07:01 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
CapriRacer Offline


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 2439
Loc: Somewhere in the US
A couple of thoughts:

THAT is very likely a belt leaving belt separation - what is commonly called a tread separation. Yes, the Ford/Firestone kind of thing.

I'm guessing the tire has a cap ply and that is why it hasn't created a flap yet.

Heat is the great tire killer. Needless to say, Phoenix is likely the hottest major city in the US.

Second, the condition of the tire looks rough, but there aren't any tell-tale cracks which is the usual way to determine the condition of the rubber (A lesson here, folks!)

Belt leaving belt separations are fatigue type failures and are rarely caused by a defect. They are usually caused by some deficiency in the design (belt edge placement, rubber gauge, that sort of thing) Lawyers like to call these design deficiencies "defects" - and even NHTSA uses that term - but that's not the way normal folks talk.

Underinflation and overloading can lead to those kinds of failures - and it would take more than just a few photos to be able to see if that is perhaps the case (Oh, and with all due respect to Nick, if I looked at the tire, I would make an assessment independent of his assertions either way. The tire would tell me if it was underinflated or not.)

It is also possible that a cut could cause that as well. Steel belts do rust - even in Phoenix.


Edited by CapriRacer (06/17/14 07:02 AM)
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#3399552 - 06/17/14 07:23 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 809
Loc: California
Regardless of the cause it looks like the time for new tires.

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#3399553 - 06/17/14 07:23 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Miller88 Online   content


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6027
Loc: Onondaga County
I'd definitely replace them anyway - even if they weren't having the belt separation issues, they are way past the point a tire should be replaced (in my book)
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#3399558 - 06/17/14 07:28 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33211
Loc: New Jersey
Looks like hot pavement effects. Very similar to what I see on passenger car tires in the Caribbean. No excuse for the bubble though... Cant say how it was caused, but wouldnt be secure on those, even in the desert...

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#3399604 - 06/17/14 08:42 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
2009Edge Online   content


Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 88
Loc: Texas
If you ever had a flat tire repaired with the "rope" it can eventually cause a ply separation which will cause an out of round condition which will cause the tire to have a "bounce".

The proper way to repair a tire puncture is from the inside with a patch stem pulled through the puncture hole.

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#3399626 - 06/17/14 09:08 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
IndyIan Offline


Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 5346
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I wouldn't have guessed the heat could make a 3.5 year old tire look that bad. The rubber chunking off looks like the cheap hercules 8 year old snow tires I ran for 3 summers...
I guess you don't get much rain, but those tires would need some extra care to get around safely.

It seems you need to pick a new tire based on its resistance to aging from heat?
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#3399698 - 06/17/14 11:05 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: CapriRacer]
expat Offline


Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 3729
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
A couple of thoughts:

THAT is very likely a belt leaving belt separation - what is commonly called a tread separation. Yes, the Ford/Firestone kind of thing.

I'm guessing the tire has a cap ply and that is why it hasn't created a flap yet.

Heat is the great tire killer. Needless to say, Phoenix is likely the hottest major city in the US.

Second, the condition of the tire looks rough, but there aren't any tell-tale cracks which is the usual way to determine the condition of the rubber (A lesson here, folks!)

Belt leaving belt separations are fatigue type failures and are rarely caused by a defect. They are usually caused by some deficiency in the design (belt edge placement, rubber gauge, that sort of thing) Lawyers like to call these design deficiencies "defects" - and even NHTSA uses that term - but that's not the way normal folks talk.

Underinflation and overloading can lead to those kinds of failures - and it would take more than just a few photos to be able to see if that is perhaps the case (Oh, and with all due respect to Nick, if I looked at the tire, I would make an assessment independent of his assertions either way. The tire would tell me if it was underinflated or not.)

It is also possible that a cut could cause that as well. Steel belts do rust - even in Phoenix.



Right on!

I spent several years retreading truck tires, That is a casing separation.

Cut out the blister. It would be interesting to see what's underneath . I bet you will find Rusty belts.

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#3399766 - 06/17/14 12:43 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: expat]
CapriRacer Offline


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 2439
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: expat
Right on!

I spent several years retreading truck tires, That is a casing separation.

Cut out the blister. It would be interesting to see what's underneath . I bet you will find Rusty belts.


I'm going to guess that the steel belt is in the way except at the tread edge. So Jack, if you do cut into it, start at the tread edge and cut horizontally into it - between thge eblts.

Oh , and rust inside is NOT a symptom as much as it is the result of the rubber peeling off the steel belt.

And, No, these are not typically adhesion failures. They typically start under the top belt NEAR the belt end, but within the matrix of rubber. It's a fatigue failure of the rubber.
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#3400008 - 06/17/14 06:09 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: CapriRacer]
expat Offline


Registered: 05/12/09
Posts: 3729
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: expat
Right on!

I spent several years retreading truck tires, That is a casing separation.

Cut out the blister. It would be interesting to see what's underneath . I bet you will find Rusty belts.


I'm going to guess that the steel belt is in the way except at the tread edge. So Jack, if you do cut into it, start at the tread edge and cut horizontally into it - between thge eblts.

Oh , and rust inside is NOT a symptom as much as it is the result of the rubber peeling off the steel belt.

And, No, these are not typically adhesion failures. They typically start under the top belt NEAR the belt end, but within the matrix of rubber. It's a fatigue failure of the rubber.


We would often see this if a truck was overloaded or had low tire pressure.

It was often thought that a small separation might start around a puncture to the belt depth (causing the belt wires to separate form the rubber). Water in the small separation might then be forced, under the tread, with every rotation, causing an ever larger separation.
We would normally see a lot of this after the first rain at the end of summer.

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#3400284 - 06/18/14 02:24 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Darris Offline


Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 74
Loc: Toronto, ON. Canada
The tire looks indented and shaved down in the middle - I thought that was usually from over inflation?? Although the outer blocks aren't exactly in good shape either... I wouldn't think 36psi is nearly enough of a deviation to account for that kind of wear though.

The Insignia was a very weak tire near the bottom of Bridgestone's line up and supplied as the factory fit on the base Corolla for a number of years. I would not judge any tire manufacturer based on a product for such an application.
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#3400398 - 06/18/14 08:40 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Darris]
CapriRacer Offline


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 2439
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Darris
The tire looks indented and shaved down in the middle - I thought that was usually from over inflation?? Although the outer blocks aren't exactly in good shape either... I wouldn't think 36psi is nearly enough of a deviation to account for that kind of wear though.

The Insignia was a very weak tire near the bottom of Bridgestone's line up and supplied as the factory fit on the base Corolla for a number of years. I would not judge any tire manufacturer based on a product for such an application.


I hope Darris won't think I am picking on him - even though he is kind of new around these parts. It's nothing personal, just a cautionary note concerning the way many people think about things.

What I want to point out is that the photos are all of the bulged out area. You just can't judge what the rest of the tire looks like by looking at that area - and it is the undisturbed portion that ought to be looked at to make the sorts of assessments he made.

And I would also caution making an assessment of inflation pressure based on wear. As a tire designer, I could alter the wear by changing the shape of the belts - and sometimes we would deliberately change it to improve rolling resistance, knowing that we were hurting wear. In other words, do NOT assume that center wear is caused just be inflation pressure.
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#3400583 - 06/18/14 12:33 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: CapriRacer]
Astro14 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 4326
Loc: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer


And I would also caution making an assessment of inflation pressure based on wear. As a tire designer, I could alter the wear by changing the shape of the belts - and sometimes we would deliberately change it to improve rolling resistance, knowing that we were hurting wear. In other words, do NOT assume that center wear is caused just be inflation pressure.


Capriracer, you are a great resource for the forum, I learn something from your posts often, but this one really surprised me....I had no idea that this was true!

As an example, with 50,000 miles on them, my Conti Extreme DWS in 235/45R17 are worn to the bars in the center, but still at 5-6/32 on the edge. I had run them at factory specified pressures (34 -38, depending on anticipated load) their entire life. I had assumed it was simply Volvo specifying too high of a pressure...now, I see that the issue is more complex...
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#3401101 - 06/18/14 11:26 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: CapriRacer]
Darris Offline


Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 74
Loc: Toronto, ON. Canada
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Darris
The tire looks indented and shaved down in the middle - I thought that was usually from over inflation?? Although the outer blocks aren't exactly in good shape either... I wouldn't think 36psi is nearly enough of a deviation to account for that kind of wear though.

The Insignia was a very weak tire near the bottom of Bridgestone's line up and supplied as the factory fit on the base Corolla for a number of years. I would not judge any tire manufacturer based on a product for such an application.


I hope Darris won't think I am picking on him ....

And I would also caution making an assessment of inflation pressure based on wear. As a tire designer, I could alter the wear by changing the shape of the belts - and sometimes we would deliberately change it to improve rolling resistance, knowing that we were hurting wear. In other words, do NOT assume that center wear is caused just be inflation pressure.


No, not taken personlly at all. I'll buy that form you as factual information.

But at the same time its kind of worrisome that you can't take for granted the observations which have been taught to lay people for years in car magazines and tire dealer websites (such as center wear=overinflation, shoulder wear=underinflation, random wear spots=alignment and so on.) I just assumed that engineers across the industry would agree to use models which resulted in wear symptoms presenting in ways consumers could become accustomed to identifying.
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#3401198 - 06/19/14 05:33 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Astro14]
supton Offline


Registered: 11/09/08
Posts: 4254
Loc: NH
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer


And I would also caution making an assessment of inflation pressure based on wear. As a tire designer, I could alter the wear by changing the shape of the belts - and sometimes we would deliberately change it to improve rolling resistance, knowing that we were hurting wear. In other words, do NOT assume that center wear is caused just be inflation pressure.


Capriracer, you are a great resource for the forum, I learn something from your posts often, but this one really surprised me....I had no idea that this was true!

As an example, with 50,000 miles on them, my Conti Extreme DWS in 235/45R17 are worn to the bars in the center, but still at 5-6/32 on the edge. I had run them at factory specified pressures (34 -38, depending on anticipated load) their entire life. I had assumed it was simply Volvo specifying too high of a pressure...now, I see that the issue is more complex...


I used to run 40psi in several sets on my Jetta, wore nice and even. This past set though gave indication of premature wear so I dialed it back a bit. I was confused as it the same size tire--granted, I've had several different kinds. Interesting, never realized it could be yet another design parameter.
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#3401221 - 06/19/14 07:04 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Astro14]
CapriRacer Offline


Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 2439
Loc: Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Capriracer, you are a great resource for the forum, I learn something from your posts often, but this one really surprised me....I had no idea that this was true!.....


Thank you for your kind words. It's why I do this

Originally Posted By: Astro14
......As an example, with 50,000 miles on them, my Conti Extreme DWS in 235/45R17 are worn to the bars in the center, but still at 5-6/32 on the edge. I had run them at factory specified pressures (34 -38, depending on anticipated load) their entire life. I had assumed it was simply Volvo specifying too high of a pressure...now, I see that the issue is more complex...


Originally Posted By: Darris
No, not taken personlly at all. I'll buy that from you as factual information.

But at the same time its kind of worrisome that you can't take for granted the observations which have been taught to lay people for years in car magazines and tire dealer websites (such as center wear=overinflation, shoulder wear=underinflation, random wear spots=alignment and so on.) I just assumed that engineers across the industry would agree to use models which resulted in wear symptoms presenting in ways consumers could become accustomed to identifying.


I put both of these quotes together, because they are related.

Treadwear on bias tires is more sensitive to inflation pressure than for belted tires. (which would include radials). Much of what people see regarding the affect inflation pressure has on wear is from that bias tire era. It isn't that what is said isn't true, it's just that the effect isn't as strong as it used to be.

2nd thought: Steer tires tend to wear in the shoulders (for obvious reasons), and drive tires tend to wear in the centers. In RWD cars (and trucks), you can see the difference, but on FWD's the fronts do both, so what you get is about the ratio of steering to driving - and usually they are about the same, so even wear.

I think the affect inflation pressure has on treadwear evenness is about the same as the affect steering/driving has on even wear. So what one gets is more a matter of which is dominating. One can get pretty much any combination, so it will be quite confusing for the average person to figure out.

And on a side note: In the sphere of consumer knowledge, things change very slowly. It can take a long time for an "Old Wife's Tale" to become a quaint, but unused bit of folklore.

Tires are no exception - and in some respects are part of the problem. People only occasionally pay much attention to them.

I'll give you an example. Last week I gave a deposition, and one of the lawyers pointed out that General Motors says in its owners manual that bias tires and radial tires should not be mixed on the same vehicle. Good advice, but it has been 35 years since GM offered a vehicle with bias tires on it - and for practical purposes, you can not find bias tires in the proper size, so why continue to have this recommendation?

And what about AWD cars? Some vehicles are very sensitive to rolling tire diameter, but the owners manual didn't reflect this until quite a few years AFTER this became apparent. Even today, it is hard to find the passage in the owners manual - and the average guy doesn't even know that it is there.

I could go on and on.
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#3401225 - 06/19/14 07:11 AM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Mr_Joe Offline


Registered: 11/16/09
Posts: 340
Loc: Wisconsin
My sister had a 'whobble' a few months ago, just after a shop took off Winter tires in MI. She asked a guy to look, he didn't see anything. Within 2 days of the wheel changes the wheel came off while driving. She was going about 30 at the time, damage was modest.

The shop owned up, still a few issues with proper repair.

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#3401563 - 06/19/14 02:33 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
ARB1977 Offline


Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 4448
Loc: North Texas
My Bridgestone Revos 2's are starting to cup. There are times you feel it and times you don't. I still have 6/32's left with 50K on them. Starting to get loud on the freeway.


Edited by ARB1977 (06/19/14 02:35 PM)
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#3401684 - 06/19/14 05:39 PM Re: So THAT'S why there's a wobble [Re: Nick1994]
Nick1994 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 787
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I got Goodyears on order from Walmart. Can't beat $49 per tire for a name brand. We'll see how they do
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