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#3396705 - 06/13/14 03:07 PM What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline?
whizbyu Offline


Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 134
Loc: Carolinas
So many opinions. Ranging from better fuel economy to worse fuel economy to better horsepower to lousier burning characteristics to farmer hating statements. What is the bottomline truth behind it? Is ethanol free broken down into 87, 89, 91 octane? I only saw "ethanol free gas" equivalent to the price of SUL here in SC.


Edited by whizbyu (06/13/14 03:07 PM)

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#3396725 - 06/13/14 03:23 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 12902
Loc: Irvine, CA
The only possible way ethanol free gasoline will give you worse gas mileage is if your car needs Premium 91 octane and you fill it with Regular 87 E0.
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#3396746 - 06/13/14 03:46 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
strat81 Offline


Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 809
Loc: Nebraska
A gallon of gasoline contains ~114,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of ethanol contains ~76,000. Therefore, under typical conditions, operating with an ethanol blend will result in reduced fuel economy. How much depends on the blend, the driver, the vehicle, etc.

Regarding power, adding ethanol to gasoline typically raises the octane (see the 100+ octane of E85 as an example). The higher the octane number, the more resistant the fuel is to detonation (knocking). Higher compression ratios can increase power, but increase the risk of detonation. This is why performance vehicles often recommend the use of high performance fuel. If the engine is designed with high compression in mind, ethanol-blended fuels may increase performance if the octane rating is higher than comparable "straight" gasoline.

Ethanol can be harmful to fuel system components not designed for it, especially in higher concentrations.

Some engines simply "don't like" ethanol blended fuels. My 2001 Honda, for example, gets roughly 10-15% worse fuel economy with E10, regardless of octane, compared to straight 87 octane gasoline.

Run five to ten tankfuls of E0 and E10 through your vehicles and keep detailed records of price paid and observed fuel economy. Then decide if ethanol "makes cents" for you.



I doubt you will find "truth" about the economics and politics behind ethanol as all sides of that controversy will be biased. Numbers can lie, especially if it is a lie by omission.
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#3396752 - 06/13/14 03:52 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: strat81]
BearZDefect Offline


Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 1938
Loc: Lexington, KY
Originally Posted By: strat81
...

Regarding power, adding ethanol to gasoline typically raises the octane (see the 100+ octane of E85 as an example). The higher the octane number, the more resistant the fuel is to detonation (knocking). Higher compression ratios can increase power, but increase the risk of detonation. This is why performance vehicles often recommend the use of high performance fuel. If the engine is designed with high compression in mind, ethanol-blended fuels may increase performance if the octane rating is higher than comparable "straight" gasoline.

...

I agree, but I don't want someone to think that E10 at the 87 pump will have a higher octane than E0 at the 87 pump.
I suspect that ethanol is added to gasoline with octane lower than desired, so the ethanol brings it up to specification.

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#3396757 - 06/13/14 03:56 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Certainly with a flex-fuel designed engine, the extremely high octane rating means that the timing can be advanced a bunch. As a result, there can be higher efficiency w/ respect to the actual energy content of the fuel. It was noted that ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content of a typical base gasoline. Also - gasoline has a certain range in terms of fuel content depending on the particular mixture.

So there are no easy answers.

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#3396761 - 06/13/14 04:01 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
29662 Offline


Registered: 05/14/14
Posts: 307
Loc: sc/fl
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline. It also offers lower fuel economy. Some vehicles are more sensitive to it than others. Another problem is Ethanol is hygroscopic(binds to water) thus wreaking havoc on fuel pumps, injectors, and metal fuel lines. It also doesn't store as well as E0 gas, that's why OPE and marine engines don't do as well on it.

As for the politics of it, that's a whole other ball of wax not worthy of BITOG.

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#3396762 - 06/13/14 04:03 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: strat81]
KevGuy Offline


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 486
Loc: Northern Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: strat81
A gallon of gasoline contains ~114,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of ethanol contains ~76,000. Therefore, under typical conditions, operating with an ethanol blend will result in reduced fuel economy. How much depends on the blend, the driver, the vehicle, etc.


I don't think what you said there can is totally correct. You just can't base it on BTUs on combustion. There are many other factors to consider than just heats of combustion.
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#3396768 - 06/13/14 04:08 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
KevGuy Offline


Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 486
Loc: Northern Alberta, Canada
Ethanol is an octane booster as it has an octane number of about 113. The issue with octane people have is it's ability to ruin engine hoses and gaskets relating to the fuel system as ethanol is hydrophilic (water liking). I have heard some controversy wrt this and I am unsure if it is true or not. I know a small engine guy that says with ethanol in gas and small engines not being built like they used too (made in China) things are just rotting away.
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#3396775 - 06/13/14 04:18 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: KevGuy]
29662 Offline


Registered: 05/14/14
Posts: 307
Loc: sc/fl
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Originally Posted By: strat81
A gallon of gasoline contains ~114,000 BTUs of energy, while a gallon of ethanol contains ~76,000. Therefore, under typical conditions, operating with an ethanol blend will result in reduced fuel economy. How much depends on the blend, the driver, the vehicle, etc.


I don't think what you said there can is totally correct. You just can't base it on BTUs on combustion. There are many other factors to consider than just heats of combustion.


I think he's right(strat81), the BTU rating is equivalent to energy content.


Edited by 29662 (06/13/14 04:19 PM)

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#3396788 - 06/13/14 04:46 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
mattwithcats Offline


Registered: 06/13/13
Posts: 696
Loc: Virginia
85 octane gas is blended with 10% ethanol to get 87 no lead E10...

Most cars run slightly rich to light off the cat, and lower emissions.
E10 or a slightly lower energy content gas will not be noticeable.

I just stopped by the Atlantic Energy station just before the Coleman Bridge in Virginia.
Ethanol free $4.03
Lots of people filling cans up...
E10, $3.25
And E85, only one around here.

I put 4.5 gallons of E85 in my tank, at $2.99 a gallon
It holds 12 gallons.
Your average car can burn 24% Ethanol no problem, mine can run 40%.
No mileage drop noticeable...

Small engines, I try and run Ethanol free...


Edited by mattwithcats (06/13/14 04:50 PM)

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#3396808 - 06/13/14 05:29 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Yes ethanol has less energy than gasoline however considering there's only 10% ethanol in fuel the difference in mileage between the 2 fuels wouldn't be measurable

Here in sask regular has 10% ethanol and premium has none,and mid- grade is mixed at the pump which makes it 5% ethanol.


I have tested both regular vs premium in my charger it's noticeably more responsive and gets a minimum of 4mpg better with premium fuel.
It should be noted that I've tuned the car with a diablosport tuner,and timing has been advanced.

The c3 seems to gain 2 mpg on the highway based on what I've seen so far.

My girls windstar doesn't run any different,nor gain any mileage when using premium fuel vs regular ethanol treated fuel.
I doubt very much that fuels of the same octane,and the only variable that's different is 10% ethanol,I doubt that there would be any measurable difference in fuel economy
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#3396810 - 06/13/14 05:34 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Corvette Owner Offline


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 1614
Loc: Waldorf, Maryland
Older engines, especially lawn mowers and farm tractors, may not handle ethanol, it eats their gaskets.
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#3396831 - 06/13/14 06:04 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: 29662]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.

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#3396848 - 06/13/14 06:20 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: KevGuy]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Ethanol is an octane booster as it has an octane number of about 113. The issue with octane people have is it's ability to ruin engine hoses and gaskets relating to the fuel system as ethanol is hydrophilic (water liking).

Are you equating octane rating with octane content? It's not boosting the actual amount of octane. It's improving the antiknock properties relative to a reference fuel of iso-octane and n-heptane.

There are no issues with hose/seal compatibility with any car made in the last couple of decades. They all use components exposed to the fuel that were designed with ethanol fuels in mind. I remember hearing about classic cars that had issues with E10, but often these went away when their seals and hoses were replaced with modern ones.

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#3396866 - 06/13/14 06:43 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11675
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced.

I'm assuming the claim refers to energy density. Of course, a higher volume of fuel would help "balance" the matter. The claim of energy density also is separate from combustion efficiency.
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3396873 - 06/13/14 06:52 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
whizbyu Offline


Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 134
Loc: Carolinas
Thank you.

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#3396875 - 06/13/14 06:53 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
oldhp Offline


Registered: 06/28/12
Posts: 841
Loc: Southern Illinois
This is what I know for a fact. We take the wife's 2012 Equinox 2.4 when we visit Tulsa OK where my daughter lives. I get 2.5/MPG better mileage going back with E0 in tank. This is figured by the ECU and my miles driven/gallons gas used "rith-ma-tic", we come up with almost the same figures. Same road, same speeds same everything.
I put E85 in once, didn't run any better, and lost over 6 MPG city/4 MPG highway. This was two full tanks to get honest figures.
Gasoline is for use in cars/trucks.
Ethanol is for.......well, making Ethanol plants money. Remember, Gov "still" subsidizing Ethanol with "our" tax dollars. Why if its so good???
You really want to use Ethanol? Make engines Ethanol ONLY. At least 13 to 1 compression with E95 blend. It might work then...but I doubt they could produce enough of it then for sea to sea USA consumption.
My 2 cents on this "E" story.
_________________________
2014 RAM Express 3.6/8 speed work truck.
2012 Equinox 2.4-Wife's Ride


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#3396887 - 06/13/14 07:02 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
I ll speak for my view.the main issue with ethanol is its love for water.and the fact it is very harsh on engine part.if you are at 1% or 2% level you are fine.its probably even beneficial.but at 10% or more?it isnt good long term.
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#3396915 - 06/13/14 07:26 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: oldhp]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: oldhp
Ethanol is for.......well, making Ethanol plants money. Remember, Gov "still" subsidizing Ethanol with "our" tax dollars. Why if its so good???
You really want to use Ethanol? Make engines Ethanol ONLY. At least 13 to 1 compression with E95 blend. It might work then...but I doubt they could produce enough of it then for sea to sea USA consumption.
My 2 cents on this "E" story.

One issue these days is the larger proportion of engines designed for premium. 92 octane premium used to be the predominant number on premium fuel pumps in California, but it's been 91 since about 2000. It was a matter of meeting the demand for premium without having to find some use for lower octane fuel streams.

Some sort of oxygenate that boosts the octane rating is important. Even if it wasn't subsidized, there would be a need for oxygenates. We can't use TEL any more. They've already maxed out the ability of make higher octane rating base fuel through cracking. MTBE is no longer used; I understand it's not illegal but no oil company would touch it.

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#3397163 - 06/14/14 04:15 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Most car maker dont want oxygenated gas in their car.
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Nissan versa note s 2014
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#3397184 - 06/14/14 06:16 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: yvon_la]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
I ll speak for my view.the main issue with ethanol is its love for water.and the fact it is very harsh on engine part.if you are at 1% or 2% level you are fine.its probably even beneficial.but at 10% or more?it isnt good long term.


This is completely false with regard to any contemporary vehicle. HUGE portions of the country have nothing else but ethanol added fuels, and cars are designed and built to safely use them.

I do not like the goofy justifications for its use either, but let's not become completely ludicrous...
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#3397277 - 06/14/14 09:10 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
29662 Offline


Registered: 05/14/14
Posts: 307
Loc: sc/fl
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.


Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


Edited by 29662 (06/14/14 09:19 AM)

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#3397930 - 06/15/14 06:37 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: 29662]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...


Edited by SteveSRT8 (06/15/14 06:38 AM)
_________________________
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#3397951 - 06/15/14 07:20 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26889
Loc: a prison island
Ethanol has less energy per unit mass than petrol and uses more for a stoichiometric mix.

A stoichimetric mix of gasoline and air contains 2.83 MJ (per Kg of mix), versus 2.69 for ethanol, or 2.69 for methanol, so in an equivalent engine, alcohols make less power...as Steve says, take advantage of equivalent octane, and in E85 the charge cooling effect of adding more latent heat of vaporisation (better V.E.) you can make more power.

Problem is that the bloke making slightly less power runs past you you when you run out (of pure ethanol), and runs about 50% further on a tank.

As to E10, it was pretty well worked out in the 80s that a 10% blend only had issues really with elastomers, not with engines.

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#3397996 - 06/15/14 08:36 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
I've been using E10 here in Illinois since the 70's. I do get less gas mileage than with E0. It does keep the engine cleaner (IMHO). I is not good for my small engines as it absorbs water when they sit unused. It eats up the small fuel line hoses on my 2 cycle hedge trimmer. It is great for my turbo 2L Hyundai but that is because of the cooling effect that ethanol has. If I could get E0 I would assuming the difference in mileage would make up for any increase in cost.

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#3398025 - 06/15/14 09:07 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
JustinH Offline


Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 3260
Loc: Texas
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.
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'08 Toyota Matrix

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#3398377 - 06/15/14 07:14 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: JustinH]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

Any modern car should run just fine on E10. Any carmaker who hasn't accounted for ethanol in the choice of fuel line components is incompetent.

Also, a modern electronic fuel injected engine will produce just as much power with E10 as it will with non alcohol fuel - all things considered. That means equivalent octane rating, although that so of gets fudged a bit because of the complexities of (R+M)/2. The biggest issue for peak power is going to be getting air into the cylinder and not that the fuel has 3% less energy content per unit volume.

Now at this moment, denatured fuel ethanol is cheaper than gasoline. So there is a bit of incentive to use ethanol. Now whether or not these cost savings actually make it to the retail market is another matter. E10 is ubiquitous these days. It's pretty much a requirement in some jurisdictions. I think MTBE was probably superior, but it had certain issues not related to its performance as a fuel component. But my point is that the market isn't really going to reflect a linear relationship between to wholesale cost of gasoline/ethanol/additives and the retail price of finished fuel.

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#3398681 - 06/16/14 07:04 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
JustinH Offline


Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 3260
Loc: Texas
My new toyota says it will also run on e15.

Think they are ready for the govermnent's next big idea?
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'08 Toyota Matrix

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#3398880 - 06/16/14 12:07 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SteveSRT8]
Boss302fan Offline


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 1960
Loc: Oconomowoc Wi
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...


When you say any modern car, which years? After 1980, 1990, etc? Just curious what you think. I do know personally, I would not run E10 in anything before 1980's... Gasket issues, etc.
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#3398889 - 06/16/14 12:22 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Boss302fan]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
I had a '79 Mustang 4 cyl and it knocked badly on straight 87 octane but they came out with the E10 in Illinois after '80 some time and it ran like a dream. It's all I ever ran in the car. Put over 140k on it before the seat fell through the floor and no fuel problems at all.

As it is now there is no other gas you can get around me but E10.

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#3398904 - 06/16/14 12:32 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Boss302fan]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan


When you say any modern car, which years? After 1980, 1990, etc? Just curious what you think. I do know personally, I would not run E10 in anything before 1980's... Gasket issues, etc.

I was thinking anything since maybe the early 90s. Even when there were manufacturer's recommendations that E10 was OK, they might still have been working out some of the compatibility issues. But since then no vehicle should have issues with E10 if regularly driven.

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#3399005 - 06/16/14 02:29 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Smokescreen Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 2400
Loc: Alberta, Canada
In anything other than a regularly run car, I run premium pure gas. I have proven to myself that the regular E10 loses its ability to burn that greater BTU potential fairly quickly as it ages. Once it starts degrading fuel economy is absolutely terrible as is the performance of the engine, backfiring hesitation and lower response. I know premium retains its BTU's longer and am willing to pay a little extra to have that.

For those cars that get driving regularly where the E10 can be fresh, they get the regular and I live with the less expensive but slightly decreased performance and the less BTU's it brings frown
_________________________
09 Corolla 1.8L-212Kkms(133Kmi)-PP,Denso
05 LeSabre 3.8L-138Kkms(86Kmi)-F1,Baldwin
03 Sierra 2500 6.0L-186Kkms(116Kmi)-PYB,Baldwin

All with mpg > EPA

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#3399021 - 06/16/14 02:45 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
A turbo with 22lbs of boost love the E10 and makes up for any loss in BTUs. drive

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#3399069 - 06/16/14 03:53 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Smokescreen]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
For those cars that get driving regularly where the E10 can be fresh, they get the regular and I live with the less expensive but slightly decreased performance and the less BTU's it brings frown

Again, I understand the issue of fuel economy. I don't understand the claims that there will be decreased performance provided the fuel isn't degraded. A fuel-injected engine will account for the slightly lower energy density by using a slightly higher volume of fuel. I understand that carbs may have some issues, but in many cases tuners have increased the size of the jets and can actually produce more power compared to non-ethanol gasoline.

Anyone found a dyno test that verifies this claim that E10 reduces power?

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#3399496 - 06/17/14 05:20 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
No blanket claims for increases or decreases with E10 because not all mfgrs use the same hardware or tuning in their engines.

This must be related to the specific vehicle or it is meaningless as not all vehicles can adjust themselves for ethanol content...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3399590 - 06/17/14 08:19 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
I've seen cars running e-85 that made awesome power at the track,and they never overheated in the lanes running all day
HOWEVER
They had twin fuel pumps,1" fuel lines and drank alcohol faster than a sailor in port,so yes ethanol has high hp potential however they've gotta burn a ton of it to achieve that power.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3399594 - 06/17/14 08:26 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: JustinH]
Benzadmiral Offline


Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3689
Loc: Da Swamp
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.
_________________________
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-- Paul W. (The Benzadmiral)
('11 Buick Regal CXL, charcoal/cream, 2.4L NA)

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#3399622 - 06/17/14 09:02 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Benzadmiral]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.

You might have to wait in line depending on the time of day; I've given up before. You'd also be limited to using American Express, a debit card with PIN, or their gift cards.

However, Costco operates them as a convenience for their members. There are rumors that they barely make any money off of their gas sales and are fine with it.

The real benefit is that they have better trained employees than most gas stations and there's always one out there available. I've talked to a few, and some even know stuff about cars, compared the kid working his way through college at a mini-mart. They have recent equipment and keep it better maintained than most. And the most important thing could be their extremely high turnover of their fuel, so there just isn't "old gas" in their tanks.

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#3399679 - 06/17/14 10:44 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Benzadmiral]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.



Here the costco pumps use shell fuel from what I've seen because that's what's advertised on the sides of the tankers filling the underground tanks.

And no worries about stale gas. That place is always 6 cars back minimum on every pump. Their turnover rate is unreal.
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3399692 - 06/17/14 10:59 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
Benzadmiral Offline


Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 3689
Loc: Da Swamp
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.

You might have to wait in line depending on the time of day; I've given up before. You'd also be limited to using American Express, a debit card with PIN, or their gift cards. . . .

When I pass by the Costco, there's usually one or two cars at most. I get to work early. So I'd have to purchase a membership, then a gift card too, which I would have to put x amount of dollars on? They don't take cash?
_________________________
* *
-- Paul W. (The Benzadmiral)
('11 Buick Regal CXL, charcoal/cream, 2.4L NA)

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#3399749 - 06/17/14 12:23 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Benzadmiral]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

At present I have two or three E0 stations in my area. If they stop selling the fuel, I might look into Costco. From what I can tell, I'd save a bit of money every year, since they sell gas at quite a reduction over other stations, more than enough to pay for the membership. And I have a Costco directly on my morning commute.

You might have to wait in line depending on the time of day; I've given up before. You'd also be limited to using American Express, a debit card with PIN, or their gift cards. . . .

When I pass by the Costco, there's usually one or two cars at most. I get to work early. So I'd have to purchase a membership, then a gift card too, which I would have to put x amount of dollars on? They don't take cash?

If you know someone willing to buy "Costco Cash" cards on your behalf, you don't even need a membership to buy gas. My understanding is that you can even use them to shop inside a Costco. You flash the card and they let you in.

And no - Costco gas stations don't take cash. Everything is authorized via magnetic strip cards at the pump. I'll use my membership card followed by a debit card (and PIN). I mentioned an active Costco Cash card alone is enough to buy gas. I think they've gone this model because it keeps people from parking their cars at the pump while they handle a cash transaction.

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#3399880 - 06/17/14 02:47 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Clevy]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I've seen cars running e-85 that made awesome power at the track,and they never overheated in the lanes running all day
HOWEVER
They had twin fuel pumps,1" fuel lines and drank alcohol faster than a sailor in port,so yes ethanol has high hp potential however they've gotta burn a ton of it to achieve that power.


Exactly! Those huge pumps and giant lines are for the VOLUME they must have to make the big HP.

Anyone ever see the jets in an alky car?
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3399969 - 06/17/14 05:19 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Clevy]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11675
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Here the costco pumps use shell fuel from what I've seen because that's what's advertised on the sides of the tankers filling the underground tanks.

I see our Costco station is pretty busy, too, and keeps the other retailers in the area honest on pricing. I haven't had the chance to fill there yet, given that its hours are similar to the Co-op's. Does one need a Costco membership for the Canadian Costco pumps?
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3399978 - 06/17/14 05:27 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Garak]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7437
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Here the costco pumps use shell fuel from what I've seen because that's what's advertised on the sides of the tankers filling the underground tanks.

I see our Costco station is pretty busy, too, and keeps the other retailers in the area honest on pricing. I haven't had the chance to fill there yet, given that its hours are similar to the Co-op's. Does one need a Costco membership for the Canadian Costco pumps?




Yep. Need a membership for Costco gas.

My cheque from co-op on my personal number was 300 bucks this year. Now that I'm driving the truck for the summer next year should be even better.
I haven't been riding because of my back. I'm going g to get this venture running tip top and ride it I think.
It's funny. My venture is an 82 and has 100hp. I had to spend 6k to get my 08 Harley to that power level.
And the venture will run on regular fuel
_________________________
2006 Charger RT
Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3402734 - 06/21/14 04:52 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Clevy]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I've seen cars running e-85 that made awesome power at the track,and they never overheated in the lanes running all day
HOWEVER
They had twin fuel pumps,1" fuel lines and drank alcohol faster than a sailor in port,so yes ethanol has high hp potential however they've gotta burn a ton of it to achieve that power.


Depending on engine design. Take the 3.2L EBDI V6 engine that is in testing at GM and co-developed with Ricardo out of the UK. On E85, it generates the same HP and torque as the 6.6L Duramax Diesel and gets better economy than the Duramax. So I think maybe these folks have an edge over what someone may be doing at the track, but then the engines are developed for different applications. The 3.2L EBDI engine has been undergoing real world testing in 3500HD pickups at GM. I sure hope they get the R&D out of the way and start offering it as an option.
_________________________
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#3402769 - 06/21/14 06:18 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: TiredTrucker]
SteveSRT8 Online   content


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 15181
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Clevy
I've seen cars running e-85 that made awesome power at the track,and they never overheated in the lanes running all day
HOWEVER
They had twin fuel pumps,1" fuel lines and drank alcohol faster than a sailor in port,so yes ethanol has high hp potential however they've gotta burn a ton of it to achieve that power.


Depending on engine design. Take the 3.2L EBDI V6 engine that is in testing at GM and co-developed with Ricardo out of the UK. On E85, it generates the same HP and torque as the 6.6L Duramax Diesel and gets better economy than the Duramax. So I think maybe these folks have an edge over what someone may be doing at the track, but then the engines are developed for different applications. The 3.2L EBDI engine has been undergoing real world testing in 3500HD pickups at GM. I sure hope they get the R&D out of the way and start offering it as an option.


Since some of the alky teams have huge budgets and have been doing this for many decades they could probably teach all of us a thing or two about horsepower.

But for daily driveability no doubt the GM engine will be better!

Seriously, I also have followed the GM/Ricardo engine online and it looks quite interesting. But it's a ways out from any real production. Still very promising tech, and I can guarantee you that technology will find a way...
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
Just like we go to Publix

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#3416763 - 07/07/14 12:28 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
davinci Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 30
Loc: TN
I will say I get better gas mileage with using non ethanol gas but it does cost more. At best its a wash but I have not bought any fuel additives since using only non ethanol gas.

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#3417003 - 07/07/14 10:09 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Non ethanol gas should not cost more. It is a result the market distortion by the subsidies applied to ethanol.

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#3417085 - 07/07/14 11:48 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
davinci Offline


Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 30
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Non ethanol gas should not cost more. It is a result the market distortion by the subsidies applied to ethanol.


Agreed but I didn't want to get political. grin

The place that works on my cars for those tougher jobs confirms the subsidy. He said as much as he hates ethanol in gas it has increased his business with related repairs.

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#3418815 - 07/08/14 08:45 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
I use gas called E25(25% ethanol) in my cars for 30 years now. Not a problem, because it is what the car always used. What phocap the fuel system is precisely the use of gasoline without alcohol. That's it. Pure gas let residoes that alcohol dislodges. Ethanol doesn't make any deposits, just clean the residues already deposited by regular pure gas.

So, a car using ethanol mix, E10 or E15 since new, will never have problems, but an old car that only sees E zero, will start to clean up the fuel sys and clogg up the parts. That's what happens.
_________________________
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1993 Subaru Impreza EJ16 121k miles Mobil 1 15w50
1997 Kawasaki Ninja ZX9R 38k miles Mobil 1 15w50

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#3419293 - 07/09/14 08:48 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Non ethanol gas should not cost more. It is a result the market distortion by the subsidies applied to ethanol.


Please post government documents showing ethanol subsidies. According to my hired help in D.C., the Renewable Fuels Association, and my local newspaper articles, ethanol subsidies were eliminated at least a couple of years ago.

But what of petroleum subsidies and tax credits? Those folks have had some special treatment as well. Some of them implemented almost a century ago and never been rescinded. If we looked at the cost of lives, resources, etc to keep the spigots open for petroleum, it would be a lot more than ethanol has ever cost the tax payer.

Look, ethanol, wind, solar, petroleum, nuclear, whatever energy, every one has had their hands in the till in one form or another. It is pretty disingenuous to chastise one group without equally putting forth some of the realities of the others. And it really is telling to some degree. Almost seems like a religious discussion in that some give the appearance of worshiping at the petroleum alter. "Oh hail, almighty oil well, blessed be thou. Please take our sacrifice of our youth to keep the fuel at the pump cheap". We gladly sacrifice our young men and women on the petroleum alter without ever thinking about it when we fill our vehicles. But I don't think we have had to build Armies and send our finest to defend a corn field in Illinois or Iowa. At least not since the 1800's wars with the American Indian tribes.

I keep waiting for the true cost of petroleum to be priced at the pump. The cost of wars, lives, cost shifting to the taxpayers, etc. Some have played the numbers out that the actual cost of petroleum fuels would easily exceed $15 a gallon. So it is hard to speak so easily about any ethanol fuel subsidies without also the realities of what it has cost to keep petroleum fuels low at the pump. And primarily because government hacks would not let us drill for our own, or allow pipelines to be built to better supply ourselves from our neighbors. But hey, your government cares for you.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3419330 - 07/09/14 09:38 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Illinois has a sales tax credit for gas station owners for the use of ethanol blends. I suppose most other states do too.

The EPA still mandates the use of ethanol fuel.

The refiners get a tax credit for purchasing of ethanol feed stocks.

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#3419422 - 07/09/14 11:07 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Those are not factored into the market price of ethanol. Ethanol traded on the Chicago Board is the going price for ethanol for any buyer. Same is true for gasoline, diesel 1 and diesel 2, etc. What deals states make with the retailers is one thing altogether different.

Well, partially, the EPA mandates the use of ethanol. It is largely a regional thing and major metropolitan areas to meet clean air standards. If EPA mandated the use, as you imply, then ethanol free gas would be non existent in the country. The EPA also mandates a lot of other things that have are a drain on the consumer. Try looking at the cost of emissions equipment on a commercial semi truck sometime. Yet at the same time, via a loophole, I can buy a brand new commercial semi truck and drop in a pre-emission engine in it and be fully compliant! That is how I bought my 2013 Freightliner. Saved $40,000! What a country!

Tax credits are not subsidies. That is purely a reduction in the actual tax the business has to pay. If you think it is a subsidy, as many do because they feel the government owns the money and is only letting the people borrow it for a while, then I will advocate they give it up as long as you give up mortgage interest deduction, dependent and child care expenses, medical out of pocket expenses, Earned Income Tax Credit, and whatever other expenses you and others might write off on your taxes. Can anyone say Fair Tax?

Hey, a news flash..... anything I buy for my business is a tax write off also. It is called the cost of doing business. So, sure, the ethanol producers get to write off the material they buy to make their product. Come on now, get realistic and not show so much bias. The oil companies also get to write off all their expenses as well. Ever file your taxes and hear of a schedule C?
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3419433 - 07/09/14 11:13 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: TiredTrucker]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Those are not factored into the market price of ethanol. Ethanol traded on the Chicago Board is the going price for ethanol for any buyer. Same is true for gasoline, diesel 1 and diesel 2, etc. What deals states make with the retailers is one thing altogether different.

The market price of denatured fuel ethanol is considerably less than gasoline at this point. That would seem to be an incentive to use it, I would think. I do remember back when ethanol had a higher market price than gasoline. That made it a matter of having to meet government standards.

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#3419434 - 07/09/14 11:15 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Nice job of moving the goal post.

The expired blender subsidy was a tax credit.

When the EPA says we must use ethanol or some other form of bio fuel what more of a subsidy can you get?

Ethanol is not economical to produce into motor fuel without some financial incentive. Unless the EPA created demand then ethanol would not be produced as a motor fuel.

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#3419834 - 07/09/14 06:04 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
When the EPA says we must use ethanol or some other form of bio fuel what more of a subsidy can you get?

It was never a requirement for a biofuel. The requirement is for areas with high levels of CO during the winter, and it's for oxygenates. MTBE used to meet the requirement, and it was hardly a biofuel. There's no particular requirement for an oxygenate outside of winter. There are a lot of incentives anyways. The current cost is less, and it boosts the octane rating. This is especially desirable in areas where there's a higher demand for premium.

Quote:
http://www.epa.gov/mtbe/gas.htm

Winter Oxyfuel Program: Originally implemented in 1992, the CAA requires oxygenated fuel (gasoline containing 2.7 percent oxygen by weight) during the cold months in cities that have elevated levels of carbon monoxide. Ethanol is now the only oxygenate used in this program.

Year-round Reformulated Gasoline Program: Since 1995, the CAA requires reformulated gasoline (RFG) year-round in cities with the worst ground-level ozone (smog). Between 1995 and May 2006, RFG required the use of oxygen in gasoline (minimum of 2 percent oxygen by weight). Refiners chose MTBE as the main oxygenate in RFG in cities outside of the Midwest primarily for economic reasons and its blending characteristics. Unlike ethanol, MTBE can be shipped through existing pipelines, and its volatility is lower, making it easier to meet the emission standards.

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#3419842 - 07/09/14 06:13 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
That was 1992. Here's the latest.

http://humanevents.com/2013/12/24/epa-reduces-2014-ethanol-mandate/

Quote:
The RFS program was created under the Energy Policy Act (EPAct) of 2005, and established the first renewable fuel volume mandate in the United States. As required under EPAct, the original RFS program (RFS1) required 7.5 billion gallons of renewable- fuel to be blended into gasoline by 2012.

Under the Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007, the RFS program was expanded in several key ways:

EISA expanded the RFS program to include diesel, in addition to gasoline;
EISA increased the volume of renewable fuel required to be blended into transportation fuel from 9 billion gallons in 2008 to 36 billion gallons by 2022;
EISA established new categories of renewable fuel, and set separate volume requirements for each one.
EISA required EPA to apply lifecycle greenhouse gas performance threshold standards to ensure that each category of renewable fuel emits fewer greenhouse gases than the petroleum fuel it replaces.


But the good news is they have backed down from their forecast required levels. This is the push behind E15, because fuel use is dropping, the use of ethanol is also dropping. So they wanted to go to E15 to force the use of more ethanol.

[url=]http://humanevents.com/2013/12/24/epa-reduces-2014-ethanol-mandate/[/url]

Quote:
Approaching the Blending Wall
One of the biggest concerns is sluggish gasoline demand would require refiners to blend higher percentages of ethanol into gasoline to meet EPA’s requirements. Auto manufacturers and consumer groups have warned that automobiles, boats, lawnmowers, and other motorized machines suffer damage to key parts when gasoline blends include more than 10 percent ethanol

In December 11 testimony to the U.S. Senate Environment & Public Works Committee, Christopher Gundler, head of EPA’s Transportation and Air Quality Office, said ethanol mandates are pushing gasoline refineries close to the point where adding more ethanol to the fuel mix is counterproductive.

“We’re recognizing that the blend wall has been reached,” Gundler testified.


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#3420056 - 07/09/14 09:08 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
could be, but there is going to have to be some other source besides corn. Corn derived ethanol is limited to 14 Billion gallons per year. The current rate of production from corn is at 13.7 billion. So the EPA is going to have to pull a rabbit out of its hat if it wants more used and likewise more produced.
_________________________
Hey there, VA, what do ya say? How many vets did you kill today?

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#3420070 - 07/09/14 09:21 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Yes it is a losing proposition.

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#3420246 - 07/09/14 11:43 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: TiredTrucker]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
could be, but there is going to have to be some other source besides corn. Corn derived ethanol is limited to 14 Billion gallons per year. The current rate of production from corn is at 13.7 billion. So the EPA is going to have to pull a rabbit out of its hat if it wants more used and likewise more produced.

Sugar cane from a tropical climate would be perfect. Of course we don't have that. Sugar cane production in Florida and Louisiana is nowhere near that of a place like Brazil. Heck - there's barely any sugar cane production in Hawaii now.

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#3420345 - 07/10/14 05:59 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Was listening to the farm show on WHO radio out of Des Moines, IA the other day and there are some ethanol producers that are making contracts with farmers regarding buying up corn stover and making ethanol. Seems the cellulosic ethanol game has started moving the ball down the field. Time will tell if that is a worthwhile thing.

While in forums, it would seem that the ethanol thing really chaps some folk's hides, one has to take into account that many folks willingly opt for purchasing ethanol blends. There have been ethanol blends at the pumps longer than the EPA or any other government group has been heavily promoting the use of it. E10 has been a staple among fuel choices in Iowa for almost 4 decades. If consumers hadn't wanted it back then, the retailers would have been averse to storing it in tanks and letting it go bad. It never was that big of a price difference at the pump to make it some sort of sweet deal to purchase it.

So of those that hate ethanol in their fuel, there are as many or more that either have no issues, or willingly opt for the fuel. You sure do not hear some hue and cry coming out of the general populace that they are upset with ethanol at the pumps, even if mandated by some government agency. It is not leaving vehicles as steaming hulks along the road, many times the blend is a few cents cheaper so that any mpg losses are covered, and in the final analysis, most folks do not fee they are being cheated in some way. A few on the forums might be, but that is not the consensus of the majority of the buying public. I for one. I have opted for ethanol blends since the late 70's. Used it in every gasoline powered engine with nary any issues. I understand that folks should be able to not buy it if they choose to, and I support that.
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#3420434 - 07/10/14 08:21 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
I would bet most people don't have a clue they are even using ethanol. My big complaint is I have no choice.All the gas around me is blended.

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#3420711 - 07/10/14 01:01 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would bet most people don't have a clue they are even using ethanol. My big complaint is I have no choice.All the gas around me is blended.

Like I said before, even without specific biofuels targets, in California there's a strong incentive to use ethanol. Given that the futures price for fuel ethanol is less than $2/gallon, it's not that hard to understand in a marketplace where competing with lower prices or making higher profits is a strong incentive. The consumer mostly doesn't care because the fuel economy differences aren't enough to notice and most modern vehicles have no issues with E10. It's also a marketplace here in California where there's a high demand for higher octane rating fuels, and ethanol is the easiest way to boost that without having large amounts of lower octane fuels that can't be sold as motor fuel. Sure it's possible to divert the higher octane streams to making ethanol-free premium, but that would likely result in lots of fuel that won't be suitable for use in vehicles.

Of course the dynamic would be different if the price of gasoline was cheaper. However, I don't know if that will change any time soon. China and India have a taste for a middle class lifestyle that includes personal motor vehicles. That demand is what's driving up prices. As long as that demand is there, ethanol will likely be cheaper than gasoline.

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#3420726 - 07/10/14 01:12 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
I would like to see the cost of ethanol at the pump instead of wholesale price.

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#3420753 - 07/10/14 01:35 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would like to see the cost of ethanol at the pump instead of wholesale price.

It's too hard to figure that out since denatured fuel ethanol isn't typically sold at the pump. However, you can compare the wholesale price of ethanol to the wholesale price of gasoline. It's less than 2/3 for the base fuel.

http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/ethanol/cbot-ethanol.html
http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-products/rbob-gasoline.html

I had to look up what RBOB means. It's "Reformulated Regular Gasoline Blendstock" meant for blending with 10% ethanol to get 87 AKI octane unleaded. I'm taking a wild guess, but I would think that ethanol-free 87 octane would probably cost more. So it's not only the ethanol costing less, but the blending gasoline costing less.

Again - I don't think the ability to boost the octane rating of unleaded by a full point is something that fuel sellers are likely to ignore, especially in markets like California where demand is higher for premium.


Edited by y_p_w (07/10/14 01:37 PM)

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#3420759 - 07/10/14 01:41 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Yes but there are higher cost to the transportation of ethanol. It needs to come in by truck whereas gasoline comes out of pipelines.

There is only about a $0.30 a gallon difference (lower) between E85 and E10 87 oct around me.

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#3420777 - 07/10/14 01:52 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Yes but there are higher cost to the transportation of ethanol. It needs to come in by truck whereas gasoline comes out of pipelines.

There is only about a $0.30 a gallon difference (lower) between E85 and E10 87 oct around me.

Ethanol can be delivered by pipeline. It would have to be a specialty pipeline, but with demand there will be a reason to build such a pipeline. In the end ethanol is still going to cost less per gallon than gasoline, as well as meet octane rating demand. Also - E10 can be transported by pipeline.

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#3420877 - 07/10/14 03:07 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Currently they bring all the ethanol into my local terminal in trucks, then pump it off into a feeder tank. Then blend it with the fuel when loaded into another truck.

The stuff is horrible in my small engines that are not used very often.

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#3420931 - 07/10/14 03:55 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Currently they bring all the ethanol into my local terminal in trucks, then pump it off into a feeder tank. Then blend it with the fuel when loaded into another truck.

The stuff is horrible in my small engines that are not used very often.

I certainly understand certain concerns about adding ethanol to fuel. However, it's not as if there aren't practical reasons for E10 where fuel sellers would find it desirable. The vast majority of gasoline is sold for use in modern vehicles with modern sealed fuel systems, and for that use E10 is fine.

It's still going to cost less - at least to the seller. The cost of E10 delivered to the fuel depot and lower octane fuel for E10 blending is going to be less than an equivalent octane rating ethanol-free fuel. Whether or not they pass on the lower cost to the consumer may be another matter. In a competitive marketplace I would think they would.

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#3420951 - 07/10/14 04:16 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
It still sucks that I cannot get straight gas. It is not competitive when the government mandates the use of the fuel.

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#3420973 - 07/10/14 04:42 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
It still sucks that I cannot get straight gas. It is not competitive when the government mandates the use of the fuel.

Like I said, we would get it in California regardless. There's a high demand for higher octane rated fuel, and fuel ethanol is the easiest way to produce enough 87/91 to meet the demand without having leftover fuel that has to be sold in specialty markets.

MTBE used to be the standard in California. In many ways it's superior to ethanol. Pretty much nobody will use it now in fuels.

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#3421126 - 07/10/14 07:19 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I would like to see the cost of ethanol at the pump instead of wholesale price.


Me too. But along with that, I would like to see the real cost of gasoline and diesel at the pump. You know, the cost of lives of our military folks to keep the oil flowing. How about the numbers of innocent folks that have died as a result of oil money that has gone to some unscrupulous folks that are bent on destroying those that don't agree with them, all under the name of religion, so called. I am not sure that ethanol has the body count to it that gasoline has. But keep hope alive! Maybe we can rack up the body count over ethanol like we have over petroleum. After all, fair is fair, right?

If we could put all the military expenditures we have wasted on petroleum alone at the pump, I am sure there would be a lot of outrage when it comes time to fill the family car. But hey, that's he neat thing isn't it? We hide these costs from the consumer at the pump and they are as happy as a pig in slop. All of this nonsense at the direction of a government that always finds a way to mess things up. They may not have the ethanol thing right, but they sure have made a real mess out of petroleum as well.
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#3421159 - 07/10/14 07:40 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
boxcartommie22 Offline


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 3000
Loc: moutain country
shoz, the gov. does not mandate ethanol in gas anymore. I get my ethanol free gas at Conoco station here in lakewood all year long
its now up to the stations.bing ethanol free gas in your area.


Edited by boxcartommie22 (07/10/14 07:41 PM)
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#3421392 - 07/10/14 11:44 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Edit: wrong thread


Edited by y_p_w (07/10/14 11:44 PM)

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#3422521 - 07/12/14 09:25 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
mudpuddle Offline


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Tennessee
I just purchased a 2014 Terrain 6 cyl, and I've been reading about the carbon deposit issues with direct injection engines. I know about the "catch cans" and such that can be added. But I was wondering which fuel would tend to create less of a carbon deposit...the blended ethanol or 100% gas?

The owners manual states that a "top tier" gas should be used, and I use Shell exclusively. The top tier issue is really a non issue though since the detergents in the top tiers don't "wash" the areas where the deposits occur.

A local station sells 100% gas today for $3.62 vs $3.30 for the blend...I'm lucky to be in an area with cheap gas.

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#3423172 - 07/12/14 10:59 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: mudpuddle]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: mudpuddle
The owners manual states that a "top tier" gas should be used, and I use Shell exclusively. The top tier issue is really a non issue though since the detergents in the top tiers don't "wash" the areas where the deposits occur.

I think the fuel still gets to the valves to some extent, but obviously not directly sprayed onto the valves like you'd find with port fuel injectors. There's one chemical company that claims to have an additive that helps clean the valves on direction injection engines.

https://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

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#3423189 - 07/12/14 11:23 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: boxcartommie22]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
shoz, the gov. does not mandate ethanol in gas anymore. I get my ethanol free gas at Conoco station here in lakewood all year long
its now up to the stations.bing ethanol free gas in your area.


The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.

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#3423360 - 07/13/14 09:01 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
boxcartommie22 Offline


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 3000
Loc: moutain country
the feds lifted that mandate!two years ago left it up to the stations!!! that's why over 50 stations here in Colorado sell ethanol free gas all year long.conoco explained that to me. also shell stations here have < 10% ethanol in gas the company choose to cont to use ethanol year long.not sure what the law is in this state.


Edited by boxcartommie22 (07/13/14 09:04 AM)
_________________________
2001 Lincoln Conti,RL,K&N,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil
2007 Grand Marquis,RL,K&N,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil
2010 Raptor,RL,SS Filter,Lubegard,Archoil

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#3424967 - 07/14/14 09:21 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SHOZ]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.


The EPA does mandate, but they do not mandate down a the station level. They only mandate that so much ethanol be used in the fuel supplies. That can go as E85, E30, E15, E10, etc. There is no mandate that each and every gallon of gas have ethanol in it. That is usually a state directed thing. Put the blame where it needs to be.

Now, I had mentioned elsewhere that GM is working on the 3.2L EBDI engine that uses E85 and kicks out as much power as the larger Duramax Diesel. Well, Cummins has been working behind the scenes on a 2.8L E85 engine also. 250 HP, 450 lb torque. 4 Cyl inline engine.

http://www.truckinginfo.com/channel/equi...mmins-says.aspx
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#3425100 - 07/14/14 11:22 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: TiredTrucker]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: SHOZ

The EPA most certainly does mandate ethanol or rather renewable fuels.

That's great you can get 100% gasoline. I can't.


The EPA does mandate, but they do not mandate down a the station level. They only mandate that so much ethanol be used in the fuel supplies. That can go as E85, E30, E15, E10, etc. There is no mandate that each and every gallon of gas have ethanol in it. That is usually a state directed thing. Put the blame where it needs to be.

There is the winter oxygenate mandate in certain areas that have high CO levels. However, that's not legally an ethanol or renewable fuels mandate. It used to be met with MTBE, but nobody will touch that stuff now with the possibility of contamination of groundwater sources. And I haven't heard of methanol being used in fuel in ages, except as a gas-line antifreeze.

http://epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b08006.pdf

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#3425182 - 07/15/14 04:38 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11675
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
And I haven't heard of methanol being used in fuel in ages, except as a gas-line antifreeze.

Don't get me started on methanol. I checked my calendar and didn't think there would be methanol in gasoline. After all, even most convenience stores don't stock methyl hydrate in the winter anymore. Unfortunately, it seems I was wrong, but the lesson was more of a nuisance than an expensive one.

Run a few tanks of gasoline with methanol in a record breaking winter. You'll be on your hands and knees begging for E10 after that.
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2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
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#3426091 - 07/15/14 11:58 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Garak]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
And I haven't heard of methanol being used in fuel in ages, except as a gas-line antifreeze.

Don't get me started on methanol. I checked my calendar and didn't think there would be methanol in gasoline. After all, even most convenience stores don't stock methyl hydrate in the winter anymore. Unfortunately, it seems I was wrong, but the lesson was more of a nuisance than an expensive one.

Run a few tanks of gasoline with methanol in a record breaking winter. You'll be on your hands and knees begging for E10 after that.

I remember the owner's manual for the '89 Integra I used to drive. It noted a max 10% ethanol, 15% MTBE, or 5% methanol (plus corrosion inhibitors).

As for gas line antifreeze, the HEET brand from Gold Eagle is still the biggest selling one in the US. Here's their FAQ:

Quote:
http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet-faqs

HOW DOES HEET® BRAND WORK?

HEET® brand contains a special additive and methanol. When HEET®brand is added to the gas tank, it sinks to the bottom and mixes with any water. Since both HEET® brand and water are heavier than gasoline, they go to the bottom of the gas tank. HEET® brand absorbs water and keeps it from freezing, and blocking the flow of gasoline through the gas line and fuel pump. When the vehicle is started, the additives, methanol, water, and gasoline are consumed during combustion inside the engine.


i'm not to keen on using this stuff. If I ever needed anything, I'd probably use ISO-HEET. However, I'm not sure how useful that would be since there's already ethanol in fuel, which pretty much serves the same function of dispersing the water rather than having the water in separate pools that can freeze or lead to corrosion.

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#3426179 - 07/16/14 06:01 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 11675
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
ISO-HEET is more commonly found on the shelves up here now than any methanol stuff. The latter is usually just some off brand that found its way to the shelf at a really cheap price.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Hastings LF113
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#3428598 - 07/18/14 04:30 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 740
Loc: quebec canada
Ill poe oil in my engine before i put ethanol in my engine
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#3429150 - 07/19/14 09:28 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Rosetta Offline


Registered: 07/06/14
Posts: 211
Loc: Sta Catarina, Br
Yeah, if it's dirty, leave it there! rsrsrsrs
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#3431815 - 07/21/14 11:40 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Clubber_Lang Offline


Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 294
Loc: SC
Truth about ethanol:
Its bad for mileage, your engine and fuel system (in many cases.)
Its great for special interest groups.
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#3435361 - 07/25/14 02:08 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: KevGuy]
Bassbone52 Offline


Registered: 02/13/14
Posts: 1
Loc: Indiana
Originally Posted By: KevGuy
Ethanol is an octane booster as it has an octane number of about 113. The issue with octane people have is it's ability to ruin engine hoses and gaskets relating to the fuel system as ethanol is hydrophilic (water liking). I have heard some controversy wrt this and I am unsure if it is true or not. I know a small engine guy that says with ethanol in gas and small engines not being built like they used too (made in China) things are just rotting away.


^this. My string trimmer and leaf blower (Stihl and Echo) start easier and run better using a 91 octane no ethanol fuel sold locally by Countrymark. No doubt. I believe the ethanol destroyed the rubber seal in the bottom of the fuel tank of my Gravely walk behind mower.

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#3441559 - 07/31/14 10:47 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Clubber_Lang]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: Clubber_Lang
Truth about ethanol:
Its bad for mileage, your engine and fuel system (in many cases.)
Its great for special interest groups.


The second part maybe, but the first part not so much. It does hurt mpg, but that is only because engines in current vehicles have not been designed primarily around the fuel. Some of the newer E85 engines in R&D from GM and Cummins will knock the socks off, in mpg, most engines out in the market now, and even generate more power than traditional gas engines twice their displacement. The recent 2.8L E85 inline 4 cylinder that Cummins is testing. 450lb of torque at 2800 rpm and over 30 mpg in a Sprinter sized van. That sure beats a lot of V8's in most pickups nowadays.

Damaging to engines and fuel systems? Depends on whether the OEM is using substandard components in the engine and fuel system. Some OEM's will build things "on the cheap" and not spec components that are ethanol friendly. Most auto engines have been fine with ethanol for decades. I have owned a lot of vehicles since the early 70's, and I have given all of them at least E10 on a regular basis since it became readily available in the late 70's. I have had not one fuel related problem with E10 in my autos/pickups and everything including my riding lawn mowers, pressure washers, generators, etc. Carbed, TBI or port injected. My current pickup runs great with no issues and it has been fed E10, E30, and E85 at various times in it's life, and it will continue.

One does have to be a little proactive in using ethanol fuels in older equipment, for sure. It is not the greatest thing since sliced bread by any means, but ethanol is as good of fuel as most anything else.
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#3442540 - 08/01/14 07:34 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: TiredTrucker]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

The second part maybe, but the first part not so much. It does hurt mpg, but that is only because engines in current vehicles have not been designed primarily around the fuel. Some of the newer E85 engines in R&D from GM and Cummins will knock the socks off, in mpg, most engines out in the market now, and even generate more power than traditional gas engines twice their displacement. The recent 2.8L E85 inline 4 cylinder that Cummins is testing. 450lb of torque at 2800 rpm and over 30 mpg in a Sprinter sized van. That sure beats a lot of V8's in most pickups nowadays.

The discussion is about the fuel. You're comparing future engine tech with old gas engine tech.


Edited by hatt (08/01/14 07:35 AM)
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#3442989 - 08/01/14 03:30 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: hatt]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

The second part maybe, but the first part not so much. It does hurt mpg, but that is only because engines in current vehicles have not been designed primarily around the fuel. Some of the newer E85 engines in R&D from GM and Cummins will knock the socks off, in mpg, most engines out in the market now, and even generate more power than traditional gas engines twice their displacement. The recent 2.8L E85 inline 4 cylinder that Cummins is testing. 450lb of torque at 2800 rpm and over 30 mpg in a Sprinter sized van. That sure beats a lot of V8's in most pickups nowadays.

The discussion is about the fuel. You're comparing future engine tech with old gas engine tech.

The discussion of the fuel is useless without discussion of the current technology that uses the fuel and that will soon be on the market.

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#3443073 - 08/01/14 05:05 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: hatt

The discussion is about the fuel. You're comparing future engine tech with old gas engine tech.

The discussion of the fuel is useless without discussion of the current technology that uses the fuel and that will soon be on the market.
So tell us about upcoming gasoline engine designs. TT is comparing press releases for future engines running E85 to old engines running gas.
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#3443150 - 08/01/14 06:11 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: hatt]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2536
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: hatt

The discussion is about the fuel. You're comparing future engine tech with old gas engine tech.

The discussion of the fuel is useless without discussion of the current technology that uses the fuel and that will soon be on the market.
So tell us about upcoming gasoline engine designs. TT is comparing press releases for future engines running E85 to old engines running gas.

He didn't say old engines but rather "traditional engines". I take that as meaning modern designs that run anything from E10 to non-ethanol gasoline. That's the traditional fuel - or has been for the past 30 years.

I don't know if comparisons with old engines are fair. Frankly - I remember seeing a lot of power numbers for old muscle car engines. Seemed amazing considering they didn't have engine computers or other assorted stuff. Then I remembered that they also didn't have modern emissions and I can literally smell the unburned fuel when I'm behind a muscle car that's exempt from emissions tests.

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#3443399 - 08/01/14 10:34 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Florida
I want to see the link for this 30 mpg number TT mentioned. I'm looking at info on the Ethos 2.8 and see no mpg claims. Only CO2 claims. Very odd they have all these numbers but not the most important one to consumers.
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#3443480 - 08/02/14 12:17 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
I will try to dig out the mpg number again. I get a lot of trucking industry related news releases and such, and it was in one of them. I must have had 20-25 various releases emailed me that made some mention of the Cummins E85 testing. it is true, they really focused on the CO2 part of it.

But that all being said, GM and it's partner Ricardo, who is helping them develop the 3.2L EBDI engine that primarily is focused on E85, have made claims in a lot of releases that this engine has the equivalent power, both HP and Torque, and better fuel economy (no detailed numbers) than the Duramax Diesel in the GM 3500HD line of pickups that both engine comparisons were made. So it beats out the Duramax on fuel economy in a 3500HD pickup. And the Duramax will beat out the traditional gas engines that get placed in these pickups. So the E85 design must be killing the traditional gas engines in fuel economy comparisons.

Not bad for a V6 engine running on E85 with half the displacement of the Duramax Diesel. When the engine is designed for the fuel and not just changed to "accept" or deal with a fuel, then good things happen. So far, engines have not really done that well on E85 simply because they were never designed to take advantage of the fuel. Finally, engines are being developed in that direction, so it will be interesting to see what the R&D folks come up with.
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#3443536 - 08/02/14 02:52 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26889
Loc: a prison island
If it's Ricardo, they will be using BSFC numbers, which is industry standard for engine comparisons.

Then you have to consider the BTUs in the tank to work mileage.

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#3443611 - 08/02/14 07:44 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
hatt Offline


Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 1112
Loc: Florida
Doesn't look like Ricardo is making the claim that E85 engines will burn less fuel than gas. And this engine they're developing is a flex fuel engine.
Quote:
Consumer acceptance of ethanol has been lukewarm because vehicles using it generally suffer poorer fuel economy of about 30% in relation to gasoline.

And the price difference does not provide adequate justification: In Iowa and Minnesota, E85 currently is about 20% cheaper than gasoline, but in Michigan and much of the rest of the country, E85 is only 10% less expensive than gas.

“There's no advantage to ethanol at the moment,” Beazley admits.

The primary goal of the EBDI project is to improve the fuel efficiency of ethanol so the deficit in relation to gasoline is only 15%, rather than 30%.

Wards
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#3443650 - 08/02/14 08:32 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1809
Loc: Illinois
I had a buddy who tuned and built up the motor on his MazdaSpeed3 for E85. Made some huge HP numbers. But the fuel is too inconsistent and may be anything from E50-E85. He ended up blowing the motor.

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#3445058 - 08/03/14 08:33 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: hatt]
TiredTrucker Offline


Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1038
Loc: Kellogg, IA
Originally Posted By: hatt
Doesn't look like Ricardo is making the claim that E85 engines will burn less fuel than gas. And this engine they're developing is a flex fuel engine.
Quote:
Consumer acceptance of ethanol has been lukewarm because vehicles using it generally suffer poorer fuel economy of about 30% in relation to gasoline.

And the price difference does not provide adequate justification: In Iowa and Minnesota, E85 currently is about 20% cheaper than gasoline, but in Michigan and much of the rest of the country, E85 is only 10% less expensive than gas.

“There's no advantage to ethanol at the moment,” Beazley admits.

The primary goal of the EBDI project is to improve the fuel efficiency of ethanol so the deficit in relation to gasoline is only 15%, rather than 30%.

Wards


Yes, the 3.2L EBDI engine will be a flex fuel, but it reaches it's full performance on E85 according to all that I have read. They show lower HP and torque ratings on it when using something like E10 or E30. Actually for there real world, I would think they would have to make it a flex fuel. But at least it would be the reverse of what engine design is now. Now we have flex fuel engines designed around gas that will use E85. Now we would have engines designed around E85 that could also use gas. Overall, efficiency across the board should improve dramatically.
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