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#3396873 - 06/13/14 06:52 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
whizbyu Offline


Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 118
Loc: Carolinas
Thank you.

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#3396875 - 06/13/14 06:53 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
oldhp Offline


Registered: 06/28/12
Posts: 758
Loc: Southern Illinois
This is what I know for a fact. We take the wife's 2012 Equinox 2.4 when we visit Tulsa OK where my daughter lives. I get 2.5/MPG better mileage going back with E0 in tank. This is figured by the ECU and my miles driven/gallons gas used "rith-ma-tic", we come up with almost the same figures. Same road, same speeds same everything.
I put E85 in once, didn't run any better, and lost over 6 MPG city/4 MPG highway. This was two full tanks to get honest figures.
Gasoline is for use in cars/trucks.
Ethanol is for.......well, making Ethanol plants money. Remember, Gov "still" subsidizing Ethanol with "our" tax dollars. Why if its so good???
You really want to use Ethanol? Make engines Ethanol ONLY. At least 13 to 1 compression with E95 blend. It might work then...but I doubt they could produce enough of it then for sea to sea USA consumption.
My 2 cents on this "E" story.
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#3396887 - 06/13/14 07:02 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 590
Loc: quebec canada
I ll speak for my view.the main issue with ethanol is its love for water.and the fact it is very harsh on engine part.if you are at 1% or 2% level you are fine.its probably even beneficial.but at 10% or more?it isnt good long term.
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#3396915 - 06/13/14 07:26 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: oldhp]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2235
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: oldhp
Ethanol is for.......well, making Ethanol plants money. Remember, Gov "still" subsidizing Ethanol with "our" tax dollars. Why if its so good???
You really want to use Ethanol? Make engines Ethanol ONLY. At least 13 to 1 compression with E95 blend. It might work then...but I doubt they could produce enough of it then for sea to sea USA consumption.
My 2 cents on this "E" story.

One issue these days is the larger proportion of engines designed for premium. 92 octane premium used to be the predominant number on premium fuel pumps in California, but it's been 91 since about 2000. It was a matter of meeting the demand for premium without having to find some use for lower octane fuel streams.

Some sort of oxygenate that boosts the octane rating is important. Even if it wasn't subsidized, there would be a need for oxygenates. We can't use TEL any more. They've already maxed out the ability of make higher octane rating base fuel through cracking. MTBE is no longer used; I understand it's not illegal but no oil company would touch it.

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#3397163 - 06/14/14 04:15 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
yvon_la Offline


Registered: 05/20/14
Posts: 590
Loc: quebec canada
Most car maker dont want oxygenated gas in their car.
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#3397184 - 06/14/14 06:16 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: yvon_la]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14229
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: yvon_la
I ll speak for my view.the main issue with ethanol is its love for water.and the fact it is very harsh on engine part.if you are at 1% or 2% level you are fine.its probably even beneficial.but at 10% or more?it isnt good long term.


This is completely false with regard to any contemporary vehicle. HUGE portions of the country have nothing else but ethanol added fuels, and cars are designed and built to safely use them.

I do not like the goofy justifications for its use either, but let's not become completely ludicrous...
_________________________
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#3397277 - 06/14/14 09:10 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: y_p_w]
29662 Offline


Registered: 05/14/14
Posts: 179
Loc: sc/fl
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.


Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


Edited by 29662 (06/14/14 09:19 AM)

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#3397930 - 06/15/14 06:37 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: 29662]
SteveSRT8 Offline


Registered: 10/10/08
Posts: 14229
Loc: Sunny Florida
Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...


Edited by SteveSRT8 (06/15/14 06:38 AM)
_________________________
"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith."
J. William Fulbright
Best ET-12.79 @ 111 mph
4340 pounds, Street tires
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#3397951 - 06/15/14 07:20 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 26046
Loc: a prison island
Ethanol has less energy per unit mass than petrol and uses more for a stoichiometric mix.

A stoichimetric mix of gasoline and air contains 2.83 MJ (per Kg of mix), versus 2.69 for ethanol, or 2.69 for methanol, so in an equivalent engine, alcohols make less power...as Steve says, take advantage of equivalent octane, and in E85 the charge cooling effect of adding more latent heat of vaporisation (better V.E.) you can make more power.

Problem is that the bloke making slightly less power runs past you you when you run out (of pure ethanol), and runs about 50% further on a tank.

As to E10, it was pretty well worked out in the 80s that a 10% blend only had issues really with elastomers, not with engines.

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#3397996 - 06/15/14 08:36 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1545
Loc: Illinois
I've been using E10 here in Illinois since the 70's. I do get less gas mileage than with E0. It does keep the engine cleaner (IMHO). I is not good for my small engines as it absorbs water when they sit unused. It eats up the small fuel line hoses on my 2 cycle hedge trimmer. It is great for my turbo 2L Hyundai but that is because of the cooling effect that ethanol has. If I could get E0 I would assuming the difference in mileage would make up for any increase in cost.

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#3398025 - 06/15/14 09:07 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
JustinH Offline


Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 3142
Loc: Texas
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.
_________________________
'14 Toyota Rav4
'08 Toyota Matrix

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#3398377 - 06/15/14 07:14 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: JustinH]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2235
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: JustinH
I use e10 gas in everything. Have never had a fuel related problem, ever.

I use it in lawnmowers, cars, everything.

Pick a station that moves a lot of product, and buy your gas there. That has been my motto.

I usually go to costco on my way home from work, they are busy all the time.

Any modern car should run just fine on E10. Any carmaker who hasn't accounted for ethanol in the choice of fuel line components is incompetent.

Also, a modern electronic fuel injected engine will produce just as much power with E10 as it will with non alcohol fuel - all things considered. That means equivalent octane rating, although that so of gets fudged a bit because of the complexities of (R+M)/2. The biggest issue for peak power is going to be getting air into the cylinder and not that the fuel has 3% less energy content per unit volume.

Now at this moment, denatured fuel ethanol is cheaper than gasoline. So there is a bit of incentive to use ethanol. Now whether or not these cost savings actually make it to the retail market is another matter. E10 is ubiquitous these days. It's pretty much a requirement in some jurisdictions. I think MTBE was probably superior, but it had certain issues not related to its performance as a fuel component. But my point is that the market isn't really going to reflect a linear relationship between to wholesale cost of gasoline/ethanol/additives and the retail price of finished fuel.

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#3398681 - 06/16/14 07:04 AM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: whizbyu]
JustinH Offline


Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 3142
Loc: Texas
My new toyota says it will also run on e15.

Think they are ready for the govermnent's next big idea?
_________________________
'14 Toyota Rav4
'08 Toyota Matrix

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#3398880 - 06/16/14 12:07 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: SteveSRT8]
Boss302fan Offline


Registered: 11/07/09
Posts: 1878
Loc: Oconomowoc Wi
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 29662
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: 29662
E10 offers less power than comparable E0 Gasoline.

Do you have a source for that claim? I understand the other potential issues, but I've never heard that less power will be produced. It would produce just as much power by dumping a higher volume of fuel. I've even read that in certain carb applications where the jets are increased in size, E10 can actually increase power because it overcomes the air restrictions by getting more oxygen in the combustion chamber.

Flex fuel cars running on E85 are known to have increased performance, but that's a matter of advancing the timing.




Gasoline has an enrgy density of 45MJ(MegaJoules) per kg. compared to 26.8MJ for Ethanol. You can verify these numbers for yourself. Given that Gasoline has a higher enrgy density than Ethanol and the finite limit on air volume intake(due to throttle body restriction) the same motor can make more HP on Gas than on Ethanol.

And with regards to flex fuel vehicles making more power, that hasn't been my experience. And they get far worse mileage. You can build an engine that will make more HP using Ethanol but the engine has to be specifically built for that purpose. It's not just a matter of advancing the timing. You can only advance the timing so far before it becomes counterproductive.

Just for fun stoich for Ethanol is 9:1, Gasoline is 14.7:1.

SRT8, I believe what yvon_la might be referring to is that Ethanol is often considered to be a "dry" fuel in that it is far less lubricious than gasoline. Just one of the reasons for differing fuel pump design and materials between gas and flex fuel vehicles.


It should be stated that there is POTENTIAL for more power. If you carefully quantify that statement as "per unit of measure" then it is technically correct. Alcohol fueled cars need hugely increased quantities of fuel to make the same power as pure gasoline. Careful tuning can easily show that Alcohol may make MORE power in certain applications.

And I stand by my comment. Any modern car will run just as long on E10 as pure gas. We see it every day here in our fleet. No one is running straight Alky...


When you say any modern car, which years? After 1980, 1990, etc? Just curious what you think. I do know personally, I would not run E10 in anything before 1980's... Gasket issues, etc.

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#3398889 - 06/16/14 12:22 PM Re: What is the TRUTH regarding ethanol free gasoline? [Re: Boss302fan]
SHOZ Offline


Registered: 06/28/03
Posts: 1545
Loc: Illinois
I had a '79 Mustang 4 cyl and it knocked badly on straight 87 octane but they came out with the E10 in Illinois after '80 some time and it ran like a dream. It's all I ever ran in the car. Put over 140k on it before the seat fell through the floor and no fuel problems at all.

As it is now there is no other gas you can get around me but E10.

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