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#3395537 - 06/12/14 10:30 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: Eosyn]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 5172
Loc: New York
I think he makes some good points (although I think the whole 'deposit formulation' thing is overdone).

I use Techron or Regane once every OCI so I do believe in 'additives' as log as they contain PEA. He's probably correct that 'fuel injector cleaners', the majority of which contain no PEA, are useless....

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#3395544 - 06/12/14 10:33 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: demarpaint]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
But wait, he's a "Chemist."

From the article: "My Corvette is a 1979 that is on its second trip through the odometer (and its second engine...)"

Second engine? Apparently he's not a mechanic.
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2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3395559 - 06/12/14 10:43 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: TTK]
Tdbo Offline


Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 1670
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: TTK
I believe him. Each additive leaves its own deposits, and only a different additive can clean previous additive deposits. Thus switching brands periodically is the best way to go.


Can't see anything to disagree with here.
Can't see the harm in changing up gasoline brands at regular intervals.
As the author stated, use the interval that works best for you.
Gas Buddy and the marketplace determine my interval.
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#3395576 - 06/12/14 11:07 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: DaHen]
A_Harman Offline


Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 4085
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: DaHen
Originally Posted By: Trav
Interesting if you like tripe.


Tripe is good, just hard to find.


Never tried it, but the people who like it say it's an acquired taste.


Edited by A_Harman (06/12/14 11:07 AM)
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#3395584 - 06/12/14 11:15 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: datech]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: datech
He doesn't say anything about 2 stroke oil.. 3 WC. It's an additive.

Why go 5000 miles on one brand? why not switch more often?


Like the guy said "I use the 5000 mile method because it works and because it's easy to remember."
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#3395596 - 06/12/14 11:32 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: Turk]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2288
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Turk
This is an interesting statement....

"What about fuel injector additives?
Give the money to charity where it'll do some good; your fuel injectors will never know the difference. Other than a narrow window in 86-87 where some fuel injectors fouled, the modern (meaning post 87) injectors are of a design that won't foul unless you put some really old rotten gas through them. We had one guy in our group whose job it was to test our gas and competitors brands for injector fouling. He couldn't do it with '88 and newer injectors (with any brand of gas!). I mean he couldn't even get these injectors to foul a little.
"


So, why, or how, do we see videos of fouled injectors and after adding cleaners, we see them spraying better??



I'm pretty sure it's easy to get fouled injectors by simply using a non-detergent base fuel. That'll foul it up pretty well given enough time.

As for switching brands, I'm thinking that's probably not needed these days with a properly formulated additive package. I'm pretty sure that additives are better balanced to clean up what they might otherwise leave behind. The real key these days is that they run them through tests with performance standards and quantifiable results showing clean injectors and clean valves. So if detergent A cleans up the injectors really nicely but tends to foul up the valves, then it would have to be balanced with something that cleans up the valves.

I think there was a problem with 80s to early 90s era fuel injector detergents cleaning injectors but fouling valves. That was before Chevron developed PEA detergents. Their brand name at the time was Techroline.

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#3395601 - 06/12/14 11:44 AM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: y_p_w]
TTK Offline


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 320
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
[quote=Turk]This is an interesting statement....

"What about fuel injector additives?
Give the money to charity where it'll do some good; your fuel injectors will never know the difference. Other than a narrow window in 86-87 where some fuel injectors fouled, the modern (meaning post 87) injectors are of a design that won't foul unless you put some really old rotten gas through them. We had one guy in our group whose job it was to test our gas and competitors brands for injector fouling. He couldn't do it with '88 and newer injectors (with any brand of gas!). I mean he couldn't even get these injectors to foul a little.
"


So, why, or how, do we see videos of fouled injectors and after adding cleaners, we see them spraying better??



I'm pretty sure it's easy to get fouled injectors by simply using a non-detergent base fuel. That'll foul it up pretty well given enough time.

/quote]

Okay...now where could one buy such fuel?
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#3395617 - 06/12/14 12:13 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: TTK]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2288
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Turk
This is an interesting statement....

"What about fuel injector additives?
Give the money to charity where it'll do some good; your fuel injectors will never know the difference. Other than a narrow window in 86-87 where some fuel injectors fouled, the modern (meaning post 87) injectors are of a design that won't foul unless you put some really old rotten gas through them. We had one guy in our group whose job it was to test our gas and competitors brands for injector fouling. He couldn't do it with '88 and newer injectors (with any brand of gas!). I mean he couldn't even get these injectors to foul a little.
"


So, why, or how, do we see videos of fouled injectors and after adding cleaners, we see them spraying better??



I'm pretty sure it's easy to get fouled injectors by simply using a non-detergent base fuel. That'll foul it up pretty well given enough time.



Okay...now where could one buy such fuel?

I think Costco gets "unadditized" fuel for their stations. They have that system where they have their additive dispensed onsite from their underground additive tanks at the time it's delivered by tanker. So if you can get a wholesale account with a fuel depot, you could probably buy the stuff.

It's pretty obvious that a testing lab can get the stuff. All the detergent manufacturers probably get unadditized gas - to both blend in the additive and to use to determine a baseline performance.

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#3395639 - 06/12/14 12:32 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: y_p_w]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I think Costco gets "unadditized" fuel for their stations. They have that system where they have their additive dispensed onsite from their underground additive tanks at the time it's delivered by tanker. So if you can get a wholesale account with a fuel depot, you could probably buy the stuff.

It's pretty obvious that a testing lab can get the stuff. All the detergent manufacturers probably get unadditized gas - to both blend in the additive and to use to determine a baseline performance.

Costco is a Top Tier fuel retailer. You may be right about how the additive package gets into their gas - not sure it really matters to the end user.
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#3395644 - 06/12/14 12:38 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: dave5358]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2288
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I think Costco gets "unadditized" fuel for their stations. They have that system where they have their additive dispensed onsite from their underground additive tanks at the time it's delivered by tanker. So if you can get a wholesale account with a fuel depot, you could probably buy the stuff.

It's pretty obvious that a testing lab can get the stuff. All the detergent manufacturers probably get unadditized gas - to both blend in the additive and to use to determine a baseline performance.

Costco is a Top Tier fuel retailer. You may be right about how the additive package gets into their gas - not sure it really matters to the end user.

I was just answering the question as to how to get "unadditized fuel". You might have to scroll down the quote box to see the question.

So in short - there are ways to get unadditized fuel if you can demonstrate a need for it.

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#3395646 - 06/12/14 12:39 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: Eosyn]
raytseng Offline


Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 327
Loc: CA
what I found interesting and I've done search, is not very much info about actual bench-type testing with the additives by enthusiasts.

What I mean, is people are always testing in their car based on butt dyno, and maybe via mpg readouts but not testing the additives otherwise in a more controlled environment and actually seeing if they do anything.

There is only the one post from 2002
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=261713

that gets floated around where the guy (Sciguyjim) tested a bunch of products against tar goo that he had in his gas tank.

Sure it is not scientific, but it's a step up from butt dyno.
Why have the enthusiasts not done more unscientific home-comparo tests like this?

Otherwise, what happens is people just keep circling back to the very few primary source pieces of information, and repeat what they hear until it becomes the mantra or the flavor of the month.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2014/05/how-a-raccoon-became-an-aardvark.html


Edited by raytseng (06/12/14 12:44 PM)

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#3395653 - 06/12/14 12:49 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: Eosyn]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8016
Loc: NorthEast
There are couple of youtube videos on home grown injector cleaner procedures

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#3395679 - 06/12/14 01:13 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: y_p_w]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
I was just answering the question as to how to get "unadditized fuel". You might have to scroll down the quote box to see the question. So in short - there are ways to get unadditized fuel if you can demonstrate a need for it.

It may be a bit more tricky than just getting an 'account'. When the Clean Air Act finally got implemented, it required that motor fuels have a minimum additive package. This new standard was rather low - actually less additive than was being used by some retailers. The 'top tier' program was partially in response to this - several European car makers started complaining.

To purchase motor fuel with zero additives would seem to be in violation of the Clean Air Act, much like buying avgas for use in a motor vehicle. Yes, you can probably buy avgas. We used to have a weird gas vendor in the area selling 125 octane leaded gas as motor fuel - it was probably avgas, but who knows?. This sort of thing is frowned upon. It's hard enough to imagine a tank farm selling to an end-user at all. But, to sell the end user something they know is against the rules.

Our local weird gas vendor finally went out of business - not sure why. But he was a very small operator and it may have been a case of just 'slipping through the cracks'.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3395687 - 06/12/14 01:25 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: y_p_w]
TTK Offline


Registered: 10/23/07
Posts: 320
Loc: TN
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: Turk
This is an interesting statement....

"What about fuel injector additives?
Give the money to charity where it'll do some good; your fuel injectors will never know the difference. Other than a narrow window in 86-87 where some fuel injectors fouled, the modern (meaning post 87) injectors are of a design that won't foul unless you put some really old rotten gas through them. We had one guy in our group whose job it was to test our gas and competitors brands for injector fouling. He couldn't do it with '88 and newer injectors (with any brand of gas!). I mean he couldn't even get these injectors to foul a little.
"


So, why, or how, do we see videos of fouled injectors and after adding cleaners, we see them spraying better??



I'm pretty sure it's easy to get fouled injectors by simply using a non-detergent base fuel. That'll foul it up pretty well given enough time.



Okay...now where could one buy such fuel?

I think Costco gets "unadditized" fuel for their stations. They have that system where they have their additive dispensed onsite from their underground additive tanks at the time it's delivered by tanker. So if you can get a wholesale account with a fuel depot, you could probably buy the stuff.

It's pretty obvious that a testing lab can get the stuff. All the detergent manufacturers probably get unadditized gas - to both blend in the additive and to use to determine a baseline performance.


I am sure you think that, but there are Federal requirements for fuel additives for motor cars. By Federal law it must have a certain level of additives. What you can buy additionally at COSTCO is over and above the Federal additive requirements, and you pay extra for it.
_________________________
2010 Volvo V70-3.2
Current Fill:Castrol Edge 5w-30
2014 Subaru Forester, 0w-20 Subaru oil
2001 Chevrolet Prism
G-Oil Synthetic 5w-30

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#3395753 - 06/12/14 02:29 PM Re: A chemists view on gasoline additives [Re: TTK]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2288
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: TTK
Originally Posted By: y_p_w


It's pretty obvious that a testing lab can get the stuff. All the detergent manufacturers probably get unadditized gas - to both blend in the additive and to use to determine a baseline performance.


I am sure you think that, but there are Federal requirements for fuel additives for motor cars. By Federal law it must have a certain level of additives. What you can buy additionally at COSTCO is over and above the Federal additive requirements, and you pay extra for it.

I never stated that anyone off the street can just stop by a fuel depot with a five gallon container and get base fuel without additives. I said an entity obtaining such fuel would need to demonstrate a need for it or would need to indicate that they intend on adding the detergent before it reaches the final consumer. Where would a testing lab get such fuel? Obviously an unadditized fuel is listed as being required for most testing procedures for the baseline as well as for the testing of the additive performance.

The requirement by the EPA and state agencies is that the retail product must contain at least a certain level of detergent additives. However, there's no requirement that it be added at the fuel terminal for wholesale delivery. I'm pretty sure Costco gets an unadditized base fuel at the depot. Their whole model for "Kirkland Signature Gas" is premised on the cost savings they get from buying an additive from Lubrizol and using their automated equipment to meter it into their fuel, rather than paying someone to put it in at the fuel depot. I've heard from some familiar with the industry that some operators get unadditized base fuel from the depot and then dump in additives from a jug at the gas station.

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