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#3395529 - 06/12/14 10:23 AM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
KernelK Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 91
Loc: PA
It would appear that you are determined to try every high priced oil in the attempt to find oil performance equivalent to the factory fill 10w-40 mineral oil.

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#3395673 - 06/12/14 01:06 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: Midwest
How about you tell me what the factory fill oil was then. That particular question has been debated in the Ducati forums and there is no particular answer. Based on info from one or more UOA's on samples captured from the factory fill draining at the 600 mile 1st service, it is believed to be 10W40 mineral. Some have said 10W40 but Shell Advance Ultra 4 syn not mineral. Same problem, since Shell Advance Ultra 4 cannot be sourced in the US.

Next up I may try a 10W50, perhaps Motorex, which is another PAO / ester blend synthetic. Both the Mobil 1 10W40 and Amsoil 10W40 got the privilege of being in the engine last summer and both convinced me they are either just "noisy" oils or 10W40 is too thin for the summer climate here (even though the manual blesses 10W40 with no upper temp limit). The valve train clatter at idle in traffic in the heat got to be a little much on those two oils. Not that the desmo valve train is ever really quiet when compared to a traditional valve train design.

From the manual:

_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

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#3395676 - 06/12/14 01:10 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
sunruh Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 1631
Loc: Cedar Park, TX
it is spendy, but why not Maxima Extra4 15w50 ?
_________________________
motorcycle oil myth buster

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#3395827 - 06/12/14 03:59 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 142
Loc: 805, Ca
I agree with Sunruh and would give either Maxima Extra 4 or Motul's 300V a try, as they both have either the 10W40 or 15W50 viscosites to choose from (Sunruh had great success with Maxima, and a recent VOA/UOA of Motul's also did superb).

Although I'm not 100% sure, I'm nearly positive the Factory Fill in Ducati (along with their recommended oil to utilize) is Shell's Advance oil that isn't available here in the States. Shell has a habit of teaming up with high-performance Italian manufacturers and has been with Ducati since 1999 providing lubricants and fuels, along with the first Ferrari that came out of their factory.


Edited by Analyzer (06/12/14 04:00 PM)
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1995 Honda Accord LX
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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#3395920 - 06/12/14 05:47 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
Franklim Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 30
Loc: Singapore
Motorex 10w50 is a good oil when used on my FA. Shift smoothly all the way to 5k km according to my butt feel. Has been using it for a few times in my FA.

LR, I can send you a case of Shell Advance Ultra fully syn if you willing to pay for shipping. They are selling about $52 Ringgit in Shell petrol in Malaysia. Shell engine oil are not popular in Singapore. A lot of bikers loves Motul 300V.
_________________________
2011 Black Suzuki GSX1250FA -Motul 300V 10W40(ester core) & K&N 138 .

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#3396062 - 06/12/14 08:50 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
KernelK Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 91
Loc: PA
I doubt that the factory fill was mineral. If you are interested, Shell Advance Ultra 10w-40 is available on Amazon, but is very expensive.

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#3396106 - 06/12/14 10:16 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: Franklim]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: Midwest
Originally Posted By: Franklim
Motorex 10w50 is a good oil when used on my FA. Shift smoothly all the way to 5k km according to my butt feel. Has been using it for a few times in my FA.

LR, I can send you a case of Shell Advance Ultra fully syn if you willing to pay for shipping. They are selling about $52 Ringgit in Shell petrol in Malaysia. Shell engine oil are not popular in Singapore. A lot of bikers loves Motul 300V.


A case of 6 liters of Shell Advance Ultra 4 15W50 sells for only $52 Ringgit in Malaysia?
_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

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#3396191 - 06/13/14 01:10 AM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
Franklim Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 30
Loc: Singapore
LR, oops. Sorry. $52 Ringgit for a bottle (1 litre ). A case of 6 will be $312 Ringgit or SGD$122 .
_________________________
2011 Black Suzuki GSX1250FA -Motul 300V 10W40(ester core) & K&N 138 .

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#3396886 - 06/13/14 07:02 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: KernelK]
Ducman Offline


Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 224
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: KernelK
I doubt that the factory fill was mineral. If you are interested, Shell Advance Ultra 10w-40 is available on Amazon, but is very expensive.


Why do you doubt the DUCATI factory fill is a mineral oil?


I see no reason to think DUCATI would have anything "other" than a mineral oil as a factory fill.
I personally see no legitimate reason why they would want to use a synthetic oil as a factory fill.
The main reasons are as follows.

1) It's only intended to be in the machine for 1000 kms then changed at the first service @ 1000 kms or 12months whichever occurs first. If it's overdue for it's first service, I would doubt it would ultimately go much beyond 1600 kms before it was changed, and a mineral oil would suffice.

2) It's more cost effective for them to use a Group II oil as a factory fill.

3) A mineral oil is totally suitable, and fit for purpose under the recommended Break-in operating conditions.
DUCATI states the following in the current Owners Manuals.
(Maximum 5000 rpm for the first 1000 kms. Maximum 6000 rpm for the following 1500 kms.)

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#3396901 - 06/13/14 07:14 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: Quattro Pete]
Ducman Offline


Registered: 03/18/13
Posts: 224
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
what in the additive package would make the shifting hard? Or lack of what?

Friction modifiers, maybe?



It could be anything that's not playing nice.

I have a couple of examples where it took 2 separate oil changes to completely wash out a residual additive from the factory fill oil, and stabilize at the base line number of the oil I'm currently running.

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#3396986 - 06/13/14 09:12 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
CentAmDL650 Offline


Registered: 06/11/13
Posts: 61
Loc: FL
I switched from Mobil 1 4T to Motul 300V full (double) ester, both 10W40, and other than a 60% increase in cost, it was a noticeable improvement. It made the engine more rev-able, and the valvetrain quieter, but it solved my biggest gripe by making the shifting immensely smoother for me. Night and day difference - no notchiness, no rough shifts, no rejected shifts, and considerably lighter and more "fluid" effort to make the shift happen. The improvement lasted throughout the entire recommended 3500 mile OCI, while every other oil I had tried (including Rotella T) seemed to cause difficult shifts at or before 2000 miles, leading me to change them out. Granted, I'm running a V-Strom, not a Ducati, so there likely are other variables in play that account for your observations.

After doing UOAs on the oils I tried, I came to the conclusion that the viscosity and any shearing/ loss of viscosity had no effect on the shifting. In fact, the 300V 10W40 started and finished at 12.15 cSt @ 100C, which is considerably lower than where any of the Mobil 1 4T fills finished, which were 12.75 & 12.67 cSt, IIRC. The higher viscosity of M1 may have provided more protection against wear, but the jury is still out on that, and that's not the point I'm trying to make.

When asking why the viscosity was not the dominant factor in shift quality, I was pointed to an Amsoil white paper that suggested the oil's friction characteristics may not remain stabile throughout an OCI and could potentially change the oil's JASO range with more mileage on it. So an oil I used might start as a JASO MA-1 and gradually move into the JASO MA-2 range for instance, making the clutch engagement more abrupt and some engagement/ drag to occur even with lever pulled. With the oil providing more friction at the "disengaged" clutch the shifting would become increasingly awkward. That's the theory at least, and led someone on that thread to suggest that a simple clutch adjustment could make an improvement in shifting. I didn't try it but I think they meant you may need more disengagement with the lever pulled in - move the bite point closer to the beginning of the lever's range.

Of course it would also be interesting to see a VOA/UOA of that Silkolene and compare it to the Redline 4T & Motul 300V.

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#3397072 - 06/13/14 11:06 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
Franklim Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 30
Loc: Singapore
I am using Mobil 1 4T on my FA for thr past 2 oil changes now. I notice that in city riding where there is lots of stop and go traffic, Mobil 1 4T upshifting is smooth but downshifting become a bit rough to downshift into lower gears.

At my last oil change, I used Mobil 1 4T for about 1500km and rode up from Singapore to Thailand and back using the same Mobil 1 4T. On each trip up and down , I was riding on an average speed of 160km/h and it took about 11 to 12 hours with some breaks and fuel stops. Mobil 1 4T performed fawless during the whole trip. When i came back home, the oil was still working fine unlike Repsol fully syn which was toasted in the same situation on another trip when came back.Going to try Motul 300V 10w40 next time.

Here are some oils tested on my FA.
Mobil 10w40 semi syn
Agrip 10w40 fully syn
Castrol 10w50 fully syn
Motul 5100 15w50 semi syn
Motorex 10W50 power synt
Repsol 10W40 fully syn
Bardahl 10w50 fully syn
IPOne 10W50 fully syn
Mobil 1 4T 10w40 fully syn

verdict according to my butt feel :
Best oil - Motorex , Mobil 1, Castrol
worst oil - Bardahl , Repsol.
_________________________
2011 Black Suzuki GSX1250FA -Motul 300V 10W40(ester core) & K&N 138 .

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#3397093 - 06/13/14 11:21 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 1453
Loc: Midwest
Think what I may do is change it out with a fresh batch of Silkolene again. Right now it's technically 1 part Rotella T 15W40 and 7 parts Silkolene Pro 4 15W50. This is because the capacity is 4.1 liters and it took about 3.5 liters of Silkolene to fill it, meaning 1/2 liter of left over Rotella stayed in. New filter used.

That's enough left over Rotella T that it could have messed with the chemistry of the Silkolene a little bit.

Means another OEM filter too and they aren't cheap. Ducati Ducati, you are a finicky biatch with champagne tastes......
_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester .. (Kendall GT-1 Syn Blend 5W30)
'13 Ducati MTS .......... (Silkolene Pro 4 Ester 15W50)

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#3397268 - 06/14/14 08:49 AM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: LoneRanger]
Mackelroy Offline


Registered: 12/03/04
Posts: 772
Loc: Florida /Texas
OIls and shifting, there's a gate , it either meets the gate or it doesn't. Rotella is a very strong clutch oil, and depending on the bike, that may mean the most notchy shifting you've ever seen.

One of the slickest shifting oils Ive run, is mobil 1 hm car oil, you can feel the slickness with free wheeling in the clutch,but too slick on the clutch imo, longterm, I think you would develop premature clutch issues down the road.

In between those, most oils fit in the normal range of acceptable or not in meeting the gate.

So it really depends on which side of the gate your on.

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#3397412 - 06/14/14 01:24 PM Re: Ester oil conundrum - smooth engine / rough shifts [Re: Mackelroy]
KernelK Offline


Registered: 12/13/06
Posts: 91
Loc: PA
Is the gate open or closed?

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