'14 Can Am 4000 mile Amsoil 10-40 Test

[tc1446]

ALS Lab test (WIX) on '14 Can Am. Viscosity results disappointing inasmuch as BRP
claims oil changes are only required every 9000 miles! NO oil was added during this test
period and it had a fresh filter.

Have ordered some Motul 7100 to try next.


DATE SAMPLED 01-Jun-14
DATE RECEIVED 05-Jun-14
DATE REPORTED 10-Jun-14
6700 Time on unit
4000 Time on this oil
Amsoil
Syn ENG Oil
SAE 10W40 Motorcycle

Metals (ppm)
Iron (Fe) 14
Chromium (Cr) Lead (Pb) 1
Copper (Cu) 5
Tin (Sn) 1
Aluminium (Al) 10
Nickel (Ni) Silver (Ag) Titanium (Ti) Vanadium (V)
Contaminants (ppm)
Silicon (Si) 6
Sodium (Na) 32
Potassium (K)
Additives (ppm)
Magnesium (Mg) 194
Calcium (Ca) 2447
Barium (Ba) Phosphorus (P) 1037
Zinc (Zn) 1181
Molybdenum (Mo) 31
Boron (B) 21

Contaminants
Water (%) Coolant No

Physical Tests
Viscosity (cSt 100C) 10.6
Physical / Chemical

Base Number (mgKOH/g) 8.4

DIAGNOSIS
Engine wear levels appear satisfactory for first sample.
Silicon level (dirt/sealant material) satisfactory. Water
content acceptable. Viscosity low, indicating possible
addition of lighter grade oil.
Action: Please confirm grade of oil used in this
component. Change oil and filter(s) if not already done.
Resample next service interval to monitor and
establish wear trend.

 

[Bluestream]

Interesting for sure...is this a shared sump engine? I'm not familiar with BRP off road products

 

[LoneRanger]

That's about the exact same story on viscosity loss with the Amsoil MCT 10W40 as a 4600 mile run of it in my Ducati last year. Blackstone found the cST to be 10.86 for mine.

 

[beanoil]

BRP is unrealistic and out of touch with their oil recommendation and interval. I've got a 12 RT-S with the 998. They recommend a 5w40, and 4600 mile intervals. (http://www.spydertechnician.com/dlfiles/Updated_Maintenance_Schedule.pdf) After a little over 2000 miles, my 40 weight had sheared well into a 30 weight range, and was not long at it's rate to be in the 20's. There is no way I would go 4600 in the V-Twin, and 9K on the in-line 3 ACE motor is absurd, especially since oil pressure runs the clutch and shift. To bluestream, it's an interesting engine, with the engine containing the oil, but acting more like a dry sump by segregating it into a plastic pan at the front of the motor.

 

[lubedude13]

I don't see anything bad wrong with this. It's a new engine and you are going to have elevated metals for a while.
You can try another oil but I'd bet you'd see similar results in THIS spplication

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: lubedude13
I don't see anything bad wrong with this. It's a new engine and you are going to have elevated metals for a while.
You can try another oil but I'd bet you'd see similar results in THIS spplication


Its the viscosity that concerns me. I test all my bikes and my previous '11 Can Am RT with its 998 motor tested out about the same as this newer engine which is a 3 cyl and the maker claims 9000 mi intervals between oil and filter changes. The majority of owners will go by that as they believe everything the manual says. And that is certainly their perogative. I know how to keep the viscosity up and that is to use a couple quarts of 20-50 along with 3 qts of 10-40. That worked very well in my previous '11 Can Am but with this new motor, I'm leery about trying that formulation. At this point, I plan on changing at 4500 and then do the filter every other oil change. One quart of 20-50 Amsoil would probably do the trick for 4500 mi changes and I may do that if Motul doesn't test out any better.

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: beanoil
BRP is unrealistic and out of touch with their oil recommendation and interval. I've got a 12 RT-S with the 998. They recommend a 5w40, and 4600 mile intervals. (http://www.spydertechnician.com/dlfiles/Updated_Maintenance_Schedule.pdf) After a little over 2000 miles, my 40 weight had sheared well into a 30 weight range, and was not long at it's rate to be in the 20's. There is no way I would go 4600 in the V-Twin, and 9K on the in-line 3 ACE motor is absurd, especially since oil pressure runs the clutch and shift. To bluestream, it's an interesting engine, with the engine containing the oil, but acting more like a dry sump by segregating it into a plastic pan at the front of the motor.


Beanoil: Thats exactly how my "11 tested out, with some oils being even worse. I used 2 qts of 20-50 along with the 10-40 and that held up to 4500 very well. I'm not mechanically savvy enough to know if this formula would be detrimental to oil flow in the 1330; do you have any ideas in this regard? Maybe one quart of 20-50?

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Interesting for sure...is this a shared sump engine? I'm not familiar with BRP off road products


Its a reverse trike roadster, commonly called a "Spyder".

 

[sunruh]

OP,
your uoa is VERY typical.
wear wise i see no cause for alarm and your filtration (both oil and air) is very good. keep doing both of those the same way.

now, about your viscosity concerns.

[scarcasm on]
WHAT???? you mean amsoil didnt live up to the tests it shows nor the advertising?
[off]

its a 10w40, chances are high that NO oil would make it 5k in that motor.

so, here is the big question(s):
1) in what ambient startups are you going to be in?
2) what vis range do you want the oil to be at when you sample?
3) what oci do you want?
4) how much more (or less?) are you willing to spend to achive 1-3?
5) if not 4, then are 1-3 really that big an issue?

steve

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
OP,
your uoa is VERY typical.
wear wise i see no cause for alarm and your filtration (both oil and air) is very good. keep doing both of those the same way.

now, about your viscosity concerns.

[scarcasm on]
WHAT???? you mean amsoil didnt live up to the tests it shows nor the advertising?
[off]

its a 10w40, chances are high that NO oil would make it 5k in that motor.

so, here is the big question(s):
1) in what ambient startups are you going to be in?
2) what vis range do you want the oil to be at when you sample?
3) what oci do you want?
4) how much more (or less?) are you willing to spend to achive 1-3?
5) if not 4, then are 1-3 really that big an issue?

steve


1. Seldom less than 40F, usually much higher.
2. I can only go by what Labs tell me when they give it a "caution" at 11 or less.
I truly don't know why a low 30W is unacceptable!
3. I would like to go 4500-5000, but if I accept the Lab "caution" its obvious that
3000-3500 OCI would be better using Amsoil, or similar quality.
4. Very little more...I'd go Motul 7100 if it tests out better than Amsoil. Or any other
brand not exceeding those price ranges if they hold viscosity as well. However, if I'm gonna dump the oil at 3-3.5K I I'd rather find something a bit less pricy if possible.
5. I honestly don't know if I have an issue, other than the Lab "caution". I know from
tests on a previous machine that adding some 20-50 to the 10-40 made the viscosity hold
up well to 4500, but this being a totally new motor from BRP, I dont know if a
heavier viscosity would affect its oil flow and possibly jeopardize my warranty.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

ted

 

[sunruh]

so whats in it now? amsoil again?
will you wait another 4500mi to run the motul or dump it when it shows up?

would you consider a 3k oci if it cost half of the amsoil?

im just looking for what your "happy" point is.

the lab may be just telling you that while you put in a 40wt it didnt come out a 40wt. where the stoners tell you a range that typically isnt even IN the wt that you put in. how idiotic is that?

 

[tc1446]

Originally Posted By: sunruh
so whats in it now? amsoil again?
will you wait another 4500mi to run the motul or dump it when it shows up?

would you consider a 3k oci if it cost half of the amsoil?

im just looking for what your "happy" point is.

the lab may be just telling you that while you put in a 40wt it didnt come out a 40wt. where the stoners tell you a range that typically isnt even IN the wt that you put in. how idiotic is that?


Still got the Amsoil in it; test was sent in monday a week ago. I already have
7100 on the way and will use that up, but I could be happy with 3000 OCI's at half the price of Amsoil. Hopefully it would be MA2. I had originally planned to order Motul 5100 Blend, now rated M2, but switched at last minute to 7100.

 

[sunruh]

you may be staring at some vr1 20w50 or some hdeo

 

[Analyzer]

First of all, congrats on your new Can Am! Your UOA appears to be in good standing order, especially considering the low mileage and the 4,000 mile OCI. The primary concern/drawback is the lower measured viscosity, and how to proceed from here as far as OCI and which oil manufacturer to go with. I took a look at a few Owner Manuals on BRP's website and they want you to run either a semi-synthetic or synthetic 10W40 or 5W40 from what I can tell. Beyond that, it's to be a motorcycle approved oil (JASO MA rating) that meets either API SL, SJ, SH, or SG, but they prohibitively state not to use a motor oil meeting API SM as clutch slippage/damage will occur.

http://www.operatorsguides.brp.com/Index...8734.1402510694

I'm assuming they're willing to waive the API SM requirement do to the fact that many JASO MA rated oils are SM/SN approved oils including Mobil 1 10W40, the Motul 7100 you plan on using, along with both Rotella's 15W40/5W40 and others. To be on the safe side during your warranty period I would utilize any oil that meets their various requirements and decrease the OCI while doing the filter change every other OCI like you suggested. Although I find it hard to believe that Rotella's slightly thicker viscosity at cold temperatures (10 vs 15 grade oil) would lead to improper functioning of the clutch/transmission (especially since the API states a 10 grade oil will offer proper pump-ability down to 0 degrees F and roughly 16 degrees for a 15 grade oil), I would experiment with its use after your warranty period.
Another oil in that higher price-range you might want to consider is the Motul 300V Racing Oil that was shown in a previous members UOA with 3500 miles in a Suzuki VStrom that didn't shear whatsoever during the OCI even with .5% fuel dilution present.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...650#Post3340155

 

[tc1446]

Analyzer, thanks for your feedback. The handbook on the 1330 Triple lists API SM "or higher", so SN is ok as long as it meets their other requirements. As to warranty, I have a 4 year warranty so that's out as far as worrying about it.

I've come across several guys that have used the Rotella 15-40 with no problems which help to allay my concerns about a pure dino, and have decided to take Sunruh's very knowledgable suggestion for a hdeo and do a 3000mi run next on Rotella, using the existing oil filter since they're supposed to be good for 9000. Figuring on 3000 for the hdeo I'll be changing with a new filter at about 7500 on the old one. I'll do the UAO on the Rotella around 2000 or so.

I dumped the Amsoil today with 4500 on it and will save the Motul 7100 that came today also, for the next change along with a fresh filter.

 

[Clevy]

Those trikes run hot and the gear sets shear oil in a big way,as proven by your viscosity loss.

How married are you to synthetic?
I suggest using conventional rotella 15w-40.
Sunruh suggested it to me last year or the year before,I can't remember,and I've been using it in everything ever since.
I,like you,found that the synthetic 4T oils sheared out of grade rather quickly,and that bothered me,but conventional rotella 15w-40 lasts significantly longer in service before shear becomes noticeable based on how audible the valvetrain becomes.
For me it comes down to cost. In my applications conventional lasts just as long as synthetic,so I cannot justify the added cost since they get changed at the same time.
Try it. You'll see.

 

[Analyzer]

No problem tc1446! That's good to know your owners manual isn't as constricting on oil choices as the other manuals I checked out on their website. With that being the case, and the warranty not being an issue, I too would highly recommend Rotella's 15W40. You're meeting the SM requirement, it's JASO MA/MA2 approved, and is an incredibly shear stable oil in a wide variety of motorcycle applications (I'm running it with great success in both my Yamaha FZX700, and my FZ1). I'll be looking forward to your UOA with Rotella; it's always fun to see the "cheap HDEO" outperform so many motorcycle specific oils

Shell Rotella 15W40 Technical Data Sheet

 

[kmrcstintn]

if the machine isn't spec'd for synthetic oil, there are a whole slew of great HDEO's (15w-40) to choose from; if it does require synthetic, you could try synthetic 15w-40 HDEO's from Amsoil or Royal Purple

or Mobil 1 15w-50; Mystik makes a synthetic blend 15w-50 hdeo if you want to 'split the difference'

the HDEO's should provide more resistence to shearing out of grade or not shear as much when they do

 

[beanoil]

I got nothing for you TC, that you don't already know. A 20-50 will likely stay in grade longer, a full synthetic PAO might not shear as bad, and an HDEO will be cheaper. No matter what you use, it's going to shear. BRP is really taxing the oil by using it to run clutch, shift, and lube everything. 3 different oils, factory fill, (presumed to be 5w40 BRP), Liqui-Moly 10w40 MC specific oil, and Brad-Penn V2 (actually pretty shear stable stuff, at least in my old ST-1300) have all been torn to shreds in 2000 miles. So, my solution....?? I've just about convinced myself to run Rotella (or Delvac, jury is out) for about 2k, and then do the full monty of oil and filters at 4k. I think that is going to cover all my needs, and balance cost and protection. As far as pressure in your ACE engine (so sweet BTW, test rode a 14 RT-S about a week ago...major improvements all around) with a 20-50, I doubt any harm would come, but would wait for the warranty to lapse, just in case. But,I wouldn't worry about spiking your 10-40 like you did with your 998 to keep the oil in grade.

Originally Posted By: tc1446
Originally Posted By: beanoil
BRP is unrealistic and out of touch with their oil recommendation and interval. I've got a 12 RT-S with the 998. They recommend a 5w40, and 4600 mile intervals. (http://www.spydertechnician.com/dlfiles/Updated_Maintenance_Schedule.pdf) After a little over 2000 miles, my 40 weight had sheared well into a 30 weight range, and was not long at it's rate to be in the 20's. There is no way I would go 4600 in the V-Twin, and 9K on the in-line 3 ACE motor is absurd, especially since oil pressure runs the clutch and shift. To bluestream, it's an interesting engine, with the engine containing the oil, but acting more like a dry sump by segregating it into a plastic pan at the front of the motor.


Beanoil: Thats exactly how my "11 tested out, with some oils being even worse. I used 2 qts of 20-50 along with the 10-40 and that held up to 4500 very well. I'm not mechanically savvy enough to know if this formula would be detrimental to oil flow in the 1330; do you have any ideas in this regard? Maybe one quart of 20-50?

 

[tc1446]

Gentlemen, thank all of you for your informed feedback. That was exactly what
I was looking for. Beanoil, good to know you've tried the new Can Am. Feedback on your
tests is very interesting. I'm also anxious to see how the Rotella tests out also and will publish it when I get the test done.

Thanks again.