Recent Topics
Changing method of Warfare
by expat
3 minutes 46 seconds ago
Motul 8100 5w40, 5,500 miles, 2002 WRX (stg 4/18G)
by TedMeyer
31 minutes 41 seconds ago
2010 Jettas
by ET16
39 minutes 40 seconds ago
Kerosene/Diesel Transmission Flush
by dsmith41
Today at 06:33 PM
P215/60R15 need 4 new
by FL-400S
Today at 06:06 PM
Canadian Troops should take their Weapons Home
by Falken
Today at 06:00 PM
Wolfs Head synthetic?
by wemay
Today at 05:40 PM
Fram Ultra - Subaru Forester 9k miles, 10months
by Nate1979
Today at 05:39 PM
Pennsylvania Oil Lease?
by BBrier
Today at 05:21 PM
I am filing suit against Carter Fuel Systems
by DoubleWasp
Today at 03:37 PM
Smart Thermostats
by OVERKILL
Today at 03:26 PM
make your own coil pack removal tool cheap!!
by raaizin
Today at 03:14 PM
Newest Members
Mike_T13, spau, FLYNAVY, ArtGarcia, 12e
51662 Registered Users
Who's Online
120 registered (01rangerxl, 2009Edge, 05LGTLtd, ag_ghost, 77GrandPrix, 808Soldier, 8 invisible), 1763 Guests and 166 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51662 Members
64 Forums
221073 Topics
3494555 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#3391973 - 06/08/14 07:40 AM In tank additives for DI
nicholas Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 622
Loc: ottawa
Hi gang,

Well this is the first Directed Injected car I have owned - 09 Audi A4, 2.0T.

I see a lot of products popping up lately claiming to reduce or eliminate Direct Injection valve deposits, do any of them actually work, from your own personal experience?

My understanding was that you needed to run something through the intake, throttle body, brake booster - to actually wash over the valves. As they are closed during the combustion cycle.

Any advice to keep my filthy valves clean?
Thanks

Top
#3391996 - 06/08/14 08:23 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 3857
Loc: out there
I don't think there is anything in tank that will help. My thoughts would be to spray something like b-12 throught the intake while it was cold and being cranked, and let it sit a bit. Then crank it up after say 5-10 minutes and spray more through the intake. The problem is, you would have to do this on a regular basis to really have any effect.
_________________________
13 elantra 30k penplat5w30
03 chevy avalanche63k m1 0-30
02 saturnsc1 57k pennultra
01 saturnsc1 165k nextgenhm
93 ciera 63k 5w30 nexgenhm
gz250 hdeo15w40

Top
#3392015 - 06/08/14 08:51 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
sciphi Online   content


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 8510
Loc: Upstate NY
Supposedly a PEA-based cleaner will linger around a little while after combustion and dissolve some of the carbon. If a strong enough dose is used, and if the engine programming allows for enough overlap where the intake valves are open while the exhaust valves are open. Supposedly...

The best way is using a low NOACK oil and a good old-fashioned Italian tuneup once a week or so. Get that engine and those valves hot.
_________________________
2009 Honda Fit Sport
2012 Chevrolet Cruze Eco

Top
#3392074 - 06/08/14 10:18 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
I don't think in tank additives will help either. Now something like an Inverse Oiler might help, or feeding a cleaner via a vacuum line.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3392106 - 06/08/14 10:56 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 12539
Loc: Chicago, IL
Are you having problems with carbon build-up?

If so, in-tank products won't do much.
_________________________
2011.5 BMW M3 saloon ZCP
der stärkste buchstabe der welt
Castrol Edge Professional TWS 10w60 + Mahle OX 254D3

Top
#3392119 - 06/08/14 11:15 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
DBMaster Online   content


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 2180
Loc: Rick Perry World
If the OEM's are producing cars that are going to have issues due to valve deposits there are going to be class action suits out the wazoo (What is a wazoo?).

I have a 2012 Mazda with DI. I am simply not worrying about it.

Top
#3392201 - 06/08/14 01:46 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
OneEyeJack Online   content


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1359
Loc: California
DI is probably not a good idea for the person that keeps a car beyond the factory warranty. In fact owning any Audi beyond the warranty might get expensive, very expensive. One neighbor just spent $2,800 on an Audi timing belt, water pump and seals. A few years ago another neighbor bought a used car for $2,500 and drove it for 25K miles commuting to work with nothing more than oil changes and gasoline. He hit the roof when he had to spend $400 on the same kind of timing belt/water pump service. Much of this new technology and gadgets are for the first owner that ditches the car just before the expiration of the warranty. These fancy cars will not survive long after the first major glitch. A local shop here has half a dozen of these fancy cars in the back lot waiting for the customer to pay or for the recycle tow truck to show up because they are not worth the cost of repairs.

Top
#3392797 - 06/09/14 08:09 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
These additives will help prevent/reduce but they will not help clean. The engine is a system and the additives mainly help with the injectors and combustion chambers parts of this system. This in turn will help prevent/reduce DI deposits.

If injectors foul (and DI injectors do foul), you don't get as good of combustion. This leads to more gas making it into the oil. Gas in the oil increases volatility which increases PCV vapors that condense and deposit on the intake valves.

Regular fuel system cleaners is the first line of defense against intake valve deposits.


Edited by badtlc (06/09/14 08:09 AM)
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3394000 - 06/10/14 01:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
OneEyeJack Online   content


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1359
Loc: California

Top
#3394017 - 06/10/14 01:44 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2527
Loc: SF Bay Area
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.

Top
#3394109 - 06/10/14 03:51 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: y_p_w]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.


Afton was specifically talking about DI injectors.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3394118 - 06/10/14 04:13 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2527
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.


Afton was specifically talking about DI injectors.

The quote might have been the wrong one to use. I was thinking more of the HiTEC-6470.

Quote:
HiTEC® 6470 is a gasoline performance additive based on Afton’s latest
generation, patented, Mannich detergent technology. HiTEC® 6470 is
formulated to meet the challenges of modern Direct Injection Gasoline
(DIG) technology, whilst continuing to deliver excellent performance in
the traditional Port Fuel Injection (PFI) engine platform.
The inlet valves and injectors are kept clean and free from deposits
resulting in:
- Enhanced fuel economy
- Improved power and acceleration
- Reduced emissions
- Enhanced engine life


They show a photo of a valve (ostensibly from a DI engine) using a base fuel with gunky valves, and one using the additive where it's clean.

Top
#3394621 - 06/11/14 08:17 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: OneEyeJack]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack

Toyota uses a similar system. Its probably the only real solution, within a few years i can see it becoming the industry norm.
Until then i wouldn't touch a DI engine without it with a 10 foot pole.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3394624 - 06/11/14 08:22 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav

Until then i wouldn't touch a DI engine without it with a 10 foot pole.


Same here.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3394634 - 06/11/14 08:39 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
You guys are missing out. I'm loving my DI and it still looks good on the valves according to my mechanic and his boroscope.

Great MPGs, good power. Just all around fun to drive.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3394811 - 06/11/14 01:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3394847 - 06/11/14 02:08 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2527
Loc: SF Bay Area
How do you avoid it these days? There are just too many cars with DI engines.

I do rather like the idea of a secondary injector to simply spray down the valves. If the detergent is strong enough, it wouldn't have to be much. I think some of the injector patterns are designed to try and get some of the spray mist to the valves.

Top
#3394855 - 06/11/14 02:17 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3394884 - 06/11/14 02:48 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.


I guess you don't drive any vehicle? I see threads on every engine imaginable having issues. Are you still waiting for those issues to get ironed out? You must be a very fit person with all that walking and biking.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3394907 - 06/11/14 03:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.


I guess you don't drive any vehicle? I see threads on every engine imaginable having issues. Are you still waiting for those issues to get ironed out? You must be a very fit person with all that walking and biking.


I drive plenty, and have been since the 1970's, and yes I'm fit. A few times a month these DI threads keep popping up. I'd guess for every DI car there's maybe 100 EFI cars, yet percent wise there are more people asking for fixes for DI than EFI. They'll get it ironed out. IMO and the opinions of a few experts I spoken with it's not quite there yet.


You can also shoot Trav a PM he runs a fuel injector cleaning business let him tell you his professional observations about DI.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3394927 - 06/11/14 03:44 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Too late to edit. That 100:1 figure is extremely conservative I'm sure. It was just to bring out a point.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3394953 - 06/11/14 04:26 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I drive plenty, and have been since the 1970's, and yes I'm fit. A few times a month these DI threads keep popping up. I'd guess for every DI car there's maybe 100 EFI cars, yet percent wise there are more people asking for fixes for DI than EFI. They'll get it ironed out. IMO and the opinions of a few experts I spoken with it's not quite there yet.


You can also shoot Trav a PM he runs a fuel injector cleaning business let him tell you his professional observations about DI.


You confuse people looking for preventative measures for actual problems. I don't see many threads on actual valve deposits on here at all.

Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3394958 - 06/11/14 04:33 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Read the threads, if there weren't any problems we wouldn't be having these discussions a few times a month.

Shoot Trav a PM too.


Edited by demarpaint (06/11/14 04:35 PM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3395025 - 06/11/14 05:57 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3395059 - 06/11/14 07:12 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.

Not true in all cases. Way too broad a brush with that statement IMO.
Look at this then tell me how running the engine at 3K for 20 min is going to clean this mess up.
If that had even the most remote chance of working i think VW/Audi and others would be recommending it as preventive maintenance.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell

http://www.dailytech.com/Direct+Injected...rticle21962.htm

http://www.munichmotorsport.com/wordpress/?page_id=601

I have a few Di injectors from hi revving marine engines that are damaged beyond repair and they see 5,000 RPM for extended period.
Because your car isn't having the issue yet you cant claim anything will work on all engines.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3395076 - 06/11/14 07:38 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2527
Loc: SF Bay Area
I think I get the issue with the valves in DI engines gunking up. Port fuel injectors spray the mist into the cylinder through the intake valve. So the valve gets a nice spray of fuel, which should contain the detergents to remove whatever deposits attach up there after an explosion.

But with a DI engine, the injector is right there in the cylinder and bypasses the intake valve. It can create a more efficient/even fuel mist, but it's no longer spraying down the valves.

I suppose a little of the fuel still manages to get to the valves, but that might not be adequate to prevent buildup of crud.

Of course there are some concepts of valve materials that will resist buildup, but that's not tested. The traditional method of spraying down the valves with fuel mist works. I've heard of secondary injectors. And maybe not even one at each cylinder, but just one for each bank of cylinders.

Top
#3395169 - 06/11/14 09:25 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.


Actually I did read up on it, a lot. I also discussed it with an expert in the field, Trav. That's why I feel the way I do about the system. It is still evolving and maybe in another few years will be as problem free as EFI currently is with regard to valve deposits, etc. I will say some DI engines are much better than others.


Edited by demarpaint (06/11/14 09:33 PM)
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3395363 - 06/12/14 06:57 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: y_p_w]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
How do you avoid it these days? There are just too many cars with DI engines.

I do rather like the idea of a secondary injector to simply spray down the valves. If the detergent is strong enough, it wouldn't have to be much. I think some of the injector patterns are designed to try and get some of the spray mist to the valves.


I have been predicting the use of a hybrid system for this problem for years, long before one appeared on the market. Its the only real way.
They cant sell a vehicle mass market and expect the owners to install catch cans and drive the car like a lunatic on crack every so often to keep the thing clean, these are not viable solutions.

I can see a simple throttle body type FI taking over for around town, cold start and low speed operation.
Then let the DI kick in when more power is needed and cruising when the engine is warmed up.
They almost have it now it just needs to be simplified. It going to happen but this technology is going through a lot of redevelopment and i don't want to be a guinea pig.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3395390 - 06/12/14 07:36 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.

Not true in all cases. Way too broad a brush with that statement IMO.
Look at this then tell me how running the engine at 3K for 20 min is going to clean this mess up.
If that had even the most remote chance of working i think VW/Audi and others would be recommending it as preventive maintenance.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell

http://www.dailytech.com/Direct+Injected...rticle21962.htm

http://www.munichmotorsport.com/wordpress/?page_id=601

I have a few Di injectors from hi revving marine engines that are damaged beyond repair and they see 5,000 RPM for extended period.
Because your car isn't having the issue yet you cant claim anything will work on all engines.


3k doesn't cut. VW specifically stated 4,500+ RPMs. And yes, it does work, has been documented with photos to work.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3395393 - 06/12/14 07:37 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.


Actually I did read up on it, a lot. I also discussed it with an expert in the field, Trav. That's why I feel the way I do about the system. It is still evolving and maybe in another few years will be as problem free as EFI currently is with regard to valve deposits, etc. I will say some DI engines are much better than others.


So you are giving up on your claim about threads on this forum with people having all these problems? That is progress.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3395433 - 06/12/14 08:26 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.


Actually I did read up on it, a lot. I also discussed it with an expert in the field, Trav. That's why I feel the way I do about the system. It is still evolving and maybe in another few years will be as problem free as EFI currently is with regard to valve deposits, etc. I will say some DI engines are much better than others.


So you are giving up on your claim about threads on this forum with people having all these problems? That is progress.


Why not read what I said, I was pretty clear. Or challenge the expert on the topic Trav, he posted links, read them. Then let us know if the technology is ready for prime time.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3395441 - 06/12/14 08:34 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9951
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.

Not true in all cases. Way too broad a brush with that statement IMO.
Look at this then tell me how running the engine at 3K for 20 min is going to clean this mess up.
If that had even the most remote chance of working i think VW/Audi and others would be recommending it as preventive maintenance.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell

http://www.dailytech.com/Direct+Injected...rticle21962.htm

http://www.munichmotorsport.com/wordpress/?page_id=601

I have a few Di injectors from hi revving marine engines that are damaged beyond repair and they see 5,000 RPM for extended period.
Because your car isn't having the issue yet you cant claim anything will work on all engines.


3k doesn't cut. VW specifically stated 4,500+ RPMs. And yes, it does work, has been documented with photos to work.


Why are they still cleaning with walnut shells then?
Why are the cars that see these RPM's for longer than 20 minutes on a regular basis still having problems?
Is there a TSB that says no blasting needed just take it out and drive it at this RPM for this many minutes?
How do you bring the rear of a sodium filled valve up to those kind of temperatures when it is designed to dissipate heat?

If you need to do this sort of nonsense to any any engine to keep it running properly its poor design.
As i said before you cannot claim this will work with all engines. If that were really the case this would not be as big an issue for the manufacturers as it is.
Can you post some VW/Audi documentation to substantiate your claim.

Another point is its just not the rear of the valve that accumulates deposits its the area in the intake channel around the valve. You cannot get the head up the sort of temp you would need to burn it off, its liquid cooled.

Even in Germany where 4500+ RPM for 20 min and much longer is done on a daily basis in many cases they are still having problems.

Threads like this one are common.

http://www.1erforum.de/bmw-135i/reinigun...ung-113320.html

Sorry badtlc your casual easy approach to this issue is not realistic.
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

Top
#3396348 - 06/13/14 08:15 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
I have a 2012 Hyundai veloster. It has a gamma di engine. At about 40,000 miles I noticed the engine was knocking bad. I took the car to Hyundai and they did a bg44 intake cleaning. It worked for about 2 days then I noticed the car making that sound again. ps I had to pay for that service. Even though the tech told me that the di engines have an issue I still had to pay. So I took the car back to them and the Hyundai service manager said sorry but theres nothing they can do , they tried with bg44 and it didn't work , I was like [censored] did I pay for then. Also I use shell or exxon gas 90 percent of the time with a tectron cleaning hear and there. So top tier fuel isn't the answer like they tell you it is. After I left Hyundai I stopped at autozone and picked up two bottles of tectron and put one of them in the tank and filled up. ran the tank empty. Then I did it again the next fill up. Seems to be working now just fine. The cars got 45,000 miles now and im running another batch of tectron and all is fine. my plan is too use tectron 2 times per oci and hopefully I wont have to get scammed my dealer anymore.

Top
#3396350 - 06/13/14 08:17 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
I plan on changing the pcv valve this weekend so hopefully that helps too.

Top
#3396358 - 06/13/14 08:23 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: waltywalt]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: waltywalt
I have a 2012 Hyundai veloster. It has a gamma di engine. At about 40,000 miles I noticed the engine was knocking bad. I took the car to Hyundai and they did a bg44 intake cleaning. It worked for about 2 days then I noticed the car making that sound again. ps I had to pay for that service. Even though the tech told me that the di engines have an issue I still had to pay. So I took the car back to them and the Hyundai service manager said sorry but theres nothing they can do , they tried with bg44 and it didn't work , I was like [censored] did I pay for then. Also I use shell or exxon gas 90 percent of the time with a tectron cleaning hear and there. So top tier fuel isn't the answer like they tell you it is. After I left Hyundai I stopped at autozone and picked up two bottles of tectron and put one of them in the tank and filled up. ran the tank empty. Then I did it again the next fill up. Seems to be working now just fine. The cars got 45,000 miles now and im running another batch of tectron and all is fine. my plan is too use tectron 2 times per oci and hopefully I wont have to get scammed my dealer anymore.


Posts like this, reading on the www. and speaking with people who know is why I feel the way I do about DI. The technology is still evolving, and will eventually be as reliable or even more reliable than EFI. It's not there yet that's all I'm saying.

The Techron might help because you probably have carbon in the combustion chambers. You might be better off with the 3M kit [3M08963] to keep it at bay. It will be cheaper than going to the dealer. Check it out at Amazon and watch the how to video. HTH
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3396367 - 06/13/14 08:32 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
Also when I spoke to the tech that actually did the bg44 cleaning on my veloster he said don't baby the car. Get it out on the highway and drive it hard once in awhile. Get the rpms up atleast to 3000 for 20 minutes . My v has the dct tranny so I can put the car in 4th or 5th gear and set the cruise and do that no problem. I looked at him and said sorry man but im not running my car like that. So for me its use the tectron stuff alot and pray it works. I figured it will cost the same to do the in tank method then if I just bring it to them every 40,000 miles. I was thinking about getting in touch with Hyundai corp and complaining about it but im sure ill get the answer im not looking for.

Top
#3396369 - 06/13/14 08:35 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: waltywalt]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25916
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: waltywalt
Get the rpms up atleast to 3000 for 20 minutes. My v has the dct tranny so I can put the car in 4th or 5th gear and set the cruise and do that no problem. I looked at him and said sorry man but im not running my car like that.

Why not?
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3396373 - 06/13/14 08:40 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
A lot of people I talk to say they run a maintenance dose of tectron at each fill up. To me that's a pain in the rear end so im just gonna do the twice per oci method.

Top
#3396405 - 06/13/14 09:32 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Quattro Pete]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
Pete why would I wanna put any more stress on my car. Im sure its not good for the car to do that. Theres a reason why the car has 5th and 6th gear. Why would I wanna run it in 4th gear and get [censored] gas mileage and make the engine and tranny run hotter then need be. I know they say it will help with the carbon issue but no thanks. Ill keep babying my car. I just don't think its smart to abuse other aspects of the car for a issue that Hyundai needs to figure out. Now if Hyundai puts it in writing that its okay to do this then I might think different.

Top
#3396409 - 06/13/14 09:34 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: waltywalt]
Turk Offline


Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 8020
Loc: MN
Holy cow, wallywalt, that thing is carboning up FAST!!

Have you tried Shell V-Power or BP Invigorate gas yet??

Keep us informed...
_________________________
03 GMC Sierra 4x4 200k, M1 TDT
00 Saturn SL2 89 YO Lady Car. 79k Miles! PU
98 Saturn SC2 "Red Hot" PYB + LubeGard + Kreen
97 Camry 207k Maxlife


Top
#3396410 - 06/13/14 09:35 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
I might even try that 3m kit that demarpaint wrote about. I saw it on the web and it seems simple to do.

Top
#3396419 - 06/13/14 09:47 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
turk I use shell gas 85 percent of the time. and mobil or exxon 5 percent of the time. Sunoco and citco the other ten percent id say. But since the car was new I also used tectron not every other oil change but atleast every ten thousand miles. I only did that because of the use of non top tier Sunoco and citco gas. Which I know now is a bunch of nonsence. Like I said now im gonna use tectron a lot more. hopefully it does the trick. PS I used only top synthectic in this car and always change my oil at the severe service too. 3,750 miles oci. I was told that can help. It didn't.

Top
#3396421 - 06/13/14 09:50 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
In the velosters manual it says to use tectron fuel system cleaner every oil change if you don't use top tier fuel. That's why I didn't use the tectron every oil change. I used mostly top tier for the life of the car so idk what to really think anymore.

Top
#3396427 - 06/13/14 09:57 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: waltywalt]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21314
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: waltywalt
Pete why would I wanna put any more stress on my car. Im sure its not good for the car to do that. Theres a reason why the car has 5th and 6th gear. Why would I wanna run it in 4th gear and get [censored] gas mileage and make the engine and tranny run hotter then need be. I know they say it will help with the carbon issue but no thanks. Ill keep babying my car. I just don't think its smart to abuse other aspects of the car for a issue that Hyundai needs to figure out. Now if Hyundai puts it in writing that its okay to do this then I might think different.


I hear ya, but 3,000 rpms isn't bad, its a heck of a lot better than 4,500 rpms that has been suggested in the past. Good luck getting Hyundai putting anything in writing. I'd use the 3M kit and a maint dose of Red Line FI cleaner or Techron and hope for the best.
_________________________
GOD Bless our Troops


Top
#3396447 - 06/13/14 10:23 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: waltywalt]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 25916
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: waltywalt
Pete why would I wanna put any more stress on my car. Im sure its not good for the car to do that.

3000 rpm is stress?

You bought a sports/sporty car just so you can drive it like a grandma?

Alas, it's your car, so the choice is certainly yours.
_________________________
'02 530i (PU 5W-40)
'08 C300 4Matic (M1 0W-40)
'13 F700 GS (BMW HP 15W-50)

Top
#3396464 - 06/13/14 10:49 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
waltywalt Offline


Registered: 02/10/14
Posts: 268
Loc: ny
Okay maybe im being a little grandpa ish with the car. While were on the subject since I have only three top tier gas stations near me I wonder which one would work better with tectron when I fill it up. Shell, mobil, exxon. What is nitrogen enriched anyways shell. Is it just pea. Also I know the terminal were every gas station around hear get there gas from. Its mobil gas. I know this because my brother hauls fuel. Im sure the additives are different from say mobil and shell but I was just wondering if it would be better to use the tectron stuff with say exxon instead of shell or viceversa.

Top
#3396647 - 06/13/14 02:23 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
raytseng Offline


Registered: 12/11/08
Posts: 447
Loc: CA
The irony is that not stressing the car is actually damaging your car right now versus the hypothetical damage from stressing the car. And not just in theory, since you've reported knocking and pinging.
You can imagine even if you don't have knock, you are close to it and the knock sensors are kicking in, which must mean that at least a couple knocks happened before the sensors changed things up.

It's like in the movies where a guy won't talk because he's afraid of what his boss will do; and the hero says "your boss?, you should be afraid of me!"

If you didn't know, that's fine; but now that you're informed by your mechanic, perhaps you can imagine black crusty soot and carbon crud growing on your valves and you need to flush it out, versus the engine shaking itself to bits and you'll be more OK with it.

Also, maybe try redline or other products too. For me, even though redline is more expensive; I've found that I can use 25% or 50% of a bottle over 20gallons with similar result, so that lowers cost (premeasure it into a 2nd bottle first).
Longer more frequent treatments at lower doses might work better for your then the one time treatments.


Edited by raytseng (06/13/14 02:25 PM)

Top
#3399330 - 06/16/14 09:28 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
minis Offline


Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 18
Loc: texas
why add additives to the fuel to reduce the carbon deposits on the valves just
as an oil catch can. This way most of the oil is captured in the catch can and not
coating the intake and valves.

i have one installed on my 2013 Honda Insight and i capture 1 to 2oz per oil change.
it was installed at 100 miles on the clock.

Top
#3399350 - 06/16/14 10:05 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: minis]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: minis
why add additives to the fuel to reduce the carbon deposits on the valves just
as an oil catch can. This way most of the oil is captured in the catch can and not
coating the intake and valves.

i have one installed on my 2013 Honda Insight and i capture 1 to 2oz per oil change.
it was installed at 100 miles on the clock.


Catch cans don't prevent intake valve deposits on DI engines. You can find many folks on Audi, BMW, and mini forums with photos of gunked up valves despite using catch cans. They don't even slow the process down.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
#3399367 - 06/16/14 10:24 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
surfstar Offline


Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 4387
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
I've always wondered if LubeControl's LC20 and FP+, if used since new, would prevent deposits on DI problem engines.


Just wondered, that's all.

Top
#3399519 - 06/17/14 06:40 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Catch cans don't prevent intake valve deposits on DI engines. You can find many folks on Audi, BMW, and mini forums with photos of gunked up valves despite using catch cans. They don't even slow the process down.

If the catch can is working at all, at the very least it should slow the process. How bad would their valves be if they did not have the catch can?
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

Top
#3400699 - 06/18/14 03:27 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: dave5358]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3782
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Catch cans don't prevent intake valve deposits on DI engines. You can find many folks on Audi, BMW, and mini forums with photos of gunked up valves despite using catch cans. They don't even slow the process down.

If the catch can is working at all, at the very least it should slow the process. How bad would their valves be if they did not have the catch can?


couldn't be any worse. They were still terrible in short amount of miles even using water/meth injection WITH a catch can.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >