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#3394811 - 06/11/14 01:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9601
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.
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#3394847 - 06/11/14 02:08 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2390
Loc: SF Bay Area
How do you avoid it these days? There are just too many cars with DI engines.

I do rather like the idea of a secondary injector to simply spray down the valves. If the detergent is strong enough, it wouldn't have to be much. I think some of the injector patterns are designed to try and get some of the spray mist to the valves.

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#3394855 - 06/11/14 02:17 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21070
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.
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#3394884 - 06/11/14 02:48 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3688
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.


I guess you don't drive any vehicle? I see threads on every engine imaginable having issues. Are you still waiting for those issues to get ironed out? You must be a very fit person with all that walking and biking.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3394907 - 06/11/14 03:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21070
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trav
In this case I'm happy to be missing out at least for now.


Me too. When they get it all ironed out, and these threads stop I'm in.


I guess you don't drive any vehicle? I see threads on every engine imaginable having issues. Are you still waiting for those issues to get ironed out? You must be a very fit person with all that walking and biking.


I drive plenty, and have been since the 1970's, and yes I'm fit. A few times a month these DI threads keep popping up. I'd guess for every DI car there's maybe 100 EFI cars, yet percent wise there are more people asking for fixes for DI than EFI. They'll get it ironed out. IMO and the opinions of a few experts I spoken with it's not quite there yet.


You can also shoot Trav a PM he runs a fuel injector cleaning business let him tell you his professional observations about DI.
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#3394927 - 06/11/14 03:44 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21070
Loc: NY
Too late to edit. That 100:1 figure is extremely conservative I'm sure. It was just to bring out a point.
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#3394953 - 06/11/14 04:26 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3688
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

I drive plenty, and have been since the 1970's, and yes I'm fit. A few times a month these DI threads keep popping up. I'd guess for every DI car there's maybe 100 EFI cars, yet percent wise there are more people asking for fixes for DI than EFI. They'll get it ironed out. IMO and the opinions of a few experts I spoken with it's not quite there yet.


You can also shoot Trav a PM he runs a fuel injector cleaning business let him tell you his professional observations about DI.


You confuse people looking for preventative measures for actual problems. I don't see many threads on actual valve deposits on here at all.

Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
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#3394958 - 06/11/14 04:33 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21070
Loc: NY
Read the threads, if there weren't any problems we wouldn't be having these discussions a few times a month.

Shoot Trav a PM too.


Edited by demarpaint (06/11/14 04:35 PM)
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#3395025 - 06/11/14 05:57 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3688
Loc: KC
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3395059 - 06/11/14 07:12 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9601
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.

Not true in all cases. Way too broad a brush with that statement IMO.
Look at this then tell me how running the engine at 3K for 20 min is going to clean this mess up.
If that had even the most remote chance of working i think VW/Audi and others would be recommending it as preventive maintenance.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell

http://www.dailytech.com/Direct+Injected...rticle21962.htm

http://www.munichmotorsport.com/wordpress/?page_id=601

I have a few Di injectors from hi revving marine engines that are damaged beyond repair and they see 5,000 RPM for extended period.
Because your car isn't having the issue yet you cant claim anything will work on all engines.
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#3395076 - 06/11/14 07:38 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 2390
Loc: SF Bay Area
I think I get the issue with the valves in DI engines gunking up. Port fuel injectors spray the mist into the cylinder through the intake valve. So the valve gets a nice spray of fuel, which should contain the detergents to remove whatever deposits attach up there after an explosion.

But with a DI engine, the injector is right there in the cylinder and bypasses the intake valve. It can create a more efficient/even fuel mist, but it's no longer spraying down the valves.

I suppose a little of the fuel still manages to get to the valves, but that might not be adequate to prevent buildup of crud.

Of course there are some concepts of valve materials that will resist buildup, but that's not tested. The traditional method of spraying down the valves with fuel mist works. I've heard of secondary injectors. And maybe not even one at each cylinder, but just one for each bank of cylinders.

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#3395169 - 06/11/14 09:25 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21070
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.


Actually I did read up on it, a lot. I also discussed it with an expert in the field, Trav. That's why I feel the way I do about the system. It is still evolving and maybe in another few years will be as problem free as EFI currently is with regard to valve deposits, etc. I will say some DI engines are much better than others.


Edited by demarpaint (06/11/14 09:33 PM)
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#3395363 - 06/12/14 06:57 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: y_p_w]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9601
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
How do you avoid it these days? There are just too many cars with DI engines.

I do rather like the idea of a secondary injector to simply spray down the valves. If the detergent is strong enough, it wouldn't have to be much. I think some of the injector patterns are designed to try and get some of the spray mist to the valves.


I have been predicting the use of a hybrid system for this problem for years, long before one appeared on the market. Its the only real way.
They cant sell a vehicle mass market and expect the owners to install catch cans and drive the car like a lunatic on crack every so often to keep the thing clean, these are not viable solutions.

I can see a simple throttle body type FI taking over for around town, cold start and low speed operation.
Then let the DI kick in when more power is needed and cruising when the engine is warmed up.
They almost have it now it just needs to be simplified. It going to happen but this technology is going through a lot of redevelopment and i don't want to be a guinea pig.
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ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3395390 - 06/12/14 07:36 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3688
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Those that get the deposits can easily burn them off if they choose to.

Not true in all cases. Way too broad a brush with that statement IMO.
Look at this then tell me how running the engine at 3K for 20 min is going to clean this mess up.
If that had even the most remote chance of working i think VW/Audi and others would be recommending it as preventive maintenance.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/336352-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Megathread

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/05/ask-an-engineer-gdi-problems-in-a-nutshell

http://www.dailytech.com/Direct+Injected...rticle21962.htm

http://www.munichmotorsport.com/wordpress/?page_id=601

I have a few Di injectors from hi revving marine engines that are damaged beyond repair and they see 5,000 RPM for extended period.
Because your car isn't having the issue yet you cant claim anything will work on all engines.


3k doesn't cut. VW specifically stated 4,500+ RPMs. And yes, it does work, has been documented with photos to work.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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#3395393 - 06/12/14 07:37 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: demarpaint]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3688
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: badtlc
I have read them. Have you? Lots of concerned people with very few actual incidents.


Actually I did read up on it, a lot. I also discussed it with an expert in the field, Trav. That's why I feel the way I do about the system. It is still evolving and maybe in another few years will be as problem free as EFI currently is with regard to valve deposits, etc. I will say some DI engines are much better than others.


So you are giving up on your claim about threads on this forum with people having all these problems? That is progress.
_________________________
2007 Ford Escape XLS 2.3L ATX Kendall 5w-20, MC Fl910s, 110k+
2012 Mazda 3i Skyactiv PP 5W-20, 6spd MTX Redline MTL, 35k+

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