0W Oil

[Swift101]

Hey Everyone,

I posted before about using 0W oils in my car. Although Hyundai doesn't officially support and 0W grades, it is my understanding that these lubricants can be used in almost any application.

For example, are there any cases where 0W-XX caused engine damage? I understand that while under warranty it's best to use the recommended weights listed in the manual. But is there any known risk associated with using a 0W product?

-Thanks

 

[2009Edge]

I have been using AMSOIL 0W-20 in my Edge and have not had ANY problems with 108K on the clock. It just pumps faster in cold weather.

 

[Olas]

I don't know this for a fact, its more of a hunch...but...

a friend of mine has a Mercedes E Class, it calls for 0w40. He drained it and replaced with 10w40, and the noise at start up was horrendous! Partly because it took longer to reach the valvetrain, but I suspect ot had something to do with bearing clearances, too.

As well as temperature, clearanes are another consideration when a manufacture specs a certain grade.. if you go too thin you might not have the film strenght or film thickness to keep components seperated.

But no doubt someone with a better understanding of hyrdodynamics willl be along to tell me otherwise

and thinner stuff leaks out fasterr if you have oil-control problems..

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Swift101

But is there any known risk associated with using a 0W product?

You first need to understand what the technical difference is between a 0W and 5W oil? Namely, that a 0W will pump at -40 degrees and a 5W will not. To do so a 0W oil of the same grade will have to be formulated with higher quality base stocks than a 5W or heavier oil.
Knowing that you can now answer your own question.

 

[oldhp]

^^^^^^Read above post^^^^^^^ Will not hurt your engine.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Olas

and thinner stuff leaks out fasterr if you have oil-control problems..

What will leak out faster a 0W-40 or a 5W-20?
It's the second number of the oil grade or more precisely the KV100 spec' that will determine that, it has nothing to do with the first number of an SAE grade.

So getting back to the OP, he is asking the wrong question.

 

[Jasper8146]

What I understand the poster to be asking is pretty much the same question as I recently asked (although my post somehow got posted in the diesel forum instead of the regular passenger car forum) which is whether 0W oils give any advantage over 5W oils and the flip side of that is whether there is any risk to using a 0W oil when a 5W is specified. If I understand what you're saying, you seem to be saying that the 0W oil is "better" quality than a 5W at least insofar as the base stock goes. I'm wondering whether I will get better gas mileage in a 2014 Kia Forte 2.0 GDI which specifies 5W-20 if I instead use 0W-20 (such as Toyota's or Amsoil). The responses to my thread said there wouldn't be a measurable difference except if I lived in Canada where the 0W would flow a lot better. It still seems to me that if the 0W will flow better, that it would still offer some advantages no matter what the temperature whenever there is a cold start. So I'm still wondering whether I can safely use 0W-20 in my Kia and/or whether there are any substantial warranty risks to doing so and whether or not there would be any material advantages to my using the 0W-20?

 

[actionstan]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Swift101

But is there any known risk associated with using a 0W product?

You first need to understand what the technical difference is between a 0W and 5W oil? Namely, that a 0W will pump at -40 degrees and a 5W will not. To do so a 0W oil of the same grade will have to be formulated with higher quality base stocks than a 5W or heavier oil.
Knowing that you can now answer your own question.


I probably don't completely understand, but instead of a higher quality basestock, is it possible a 0w20 will actually instead use more VI improvers than a 5w20? I am not saying what you said is NOT possible, I am just wondering if what I said IS possible, and in that case would 0w20 possibly shear or break down easier(even if I am thinking right, its likely splitting hairs)?

 

[PandaBear]

For the same grade of oil (i.e. both synthetic), it won't hurt. The only downside is the evaporation is faster and you may need to add more top off or worry more about cat / o2 sensor contamination or intake valve deposit on DI engine.

 

[chrisri]

There is no harm in going down with first number to help cold flow,but second should stay as factory recommended.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The only downside is the evaporation is faster and you may need to add more top off or worry more about cat / o2 sensor contamination or intake valve deposit on DI engine.

Again, since 0W oil are made with better base stocks so the evaporation/volatility rate may actually be better.
And the Noack volatility rate has nothing to do with intake valve deposits, you need to look up the TEOST spec's for that.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: actionstan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Swift101

But is there any known risk associated with using a 0W product?

You first need to understand what the technical difference is between a 0W and 5W oil? Namely, that a 0W will pump at -40 degrees and a 5W will not. To do so a 0W oil of the same grade will have to be formulated with higher quality base stocks than a 5W or heavier oil.
Knowing that you can now answer your own question.


I probably don't completely understand, but instead of a higher quality basestock, is it possible a 0w20 will actually instead use more VI improvers than a 5w20?


Not likely. My understanding is that VI improvers prevent viscosity decrease with higher temps. To get the 0w side of the rating, the oil has to pump at -40. VIIs aren't going to help achieve that- very stable base stock will.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The only downside is the evaporation is faster and you may need to add more top off or worry more about cat / o2 sensor contamination or intake valve deposit on DI engine.

Again, since 0W oil are made with better base stocks so the evaporation/volatility rate may actually be better.
And the Noack volatility rate has nothing to do with intake valve deposits, you need to look up the TEOST spec's for that.


By looking at 5w and 0w PP vs 10w, I don't see the "may actually be better" part. Now if you compare a dino 10w30 vs a 0w30 synthetic, then yes it can be anything.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Substituting 0W-30 for 5W-30 won't affect anything. I started using 0W-30 as soon as Mobil began supplying it because it will flow a little better during the winter. I think Toyota would have gone with 0W-30 for my Camry if it had been available in 04. And even 0W oil is too viscous at start up in a 100 degree F garage, but it flows a little better. Thinner is always better.

 

[fdcg27]

There was an M1 0W-30 way before '04. They didn't call it AFE at the time and it didn't have a green cap.
I'm not sure when I started using it, but it may have been the late 'nineties. I'd have to check the maintenance logs for our old Aerostar to see when I started using it in place of 5W-30.
The reason that Toyota didn't recommend a 0W-30 is probably that they didn't want to recommend an oil available only as a synthetic with only two OTS brands widely available, one of which would have been exactly the wrong oil for any Camry.
IIRC, the old M1R was also a 0W-30 and got clearanced dirt cheap several years back.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: actionstan

I probably don't completely understand, but instead of a higher quality basestock, is it possible a 0w20 will actually instead use more VI improvers than a 5w20?


Not likely. My understanding is that VI improvers prevent viscosity decrease with higher temps. To get the 0w side of the rating, the oil has to pump at -40. VIIs aren't going to help achieve that- very stable base stock will.


No, the VII works both ends of the spectum...

Look at the table on the bottom of the sheet here
http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Lubricant Components/HiTEC-5710_PDS.pdf

where various treat rates are added to different (dino) basestocks...take the 100N basestock at 5% treat rate, the VII drops the pour point by 27C, doubles the KV100, and gives it a possible 5W rating.

to the OP, provided your 5W-30 doesn't specify something like A3/B4, or an HTHS above 3.5, then you are good to go.

If it does (and it won't, but many do) specify an HTHS minimum, and you still want a 0W, then you have to pick carefully, or go 0W-40.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
If it does (and it won't, but many do) specify an HTHS minimum, and you still want a 0W, then you have to pick carefully, or go 0W-40.

For the OP, if I were him and wanted to use a 0w-20, I'd probably choose M1 0w-20. At least XOM stands behind it for 5w-20 applications.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
The only downside is the evaporation is faster and you may need to add more top off or worry more about cat / o2 sensor contamination or intake valve deposit on DI engine.

Again, since 0W oil are made with better base stocks so the evaporation/volatility rate may actually be better.
And the Noack volatility rate has nothing to do with intake valve deposits, you need to look up the TEOST spec's for that.


By looking at 5w and 0w PP vs 10w, I don't see the "may actually be better" part. Now if you compare a dino 10w30 vs a 0w30 synthetic, then yes it can be anything.

You're comparing apples and oranges. PP doesn't make a 0W-30 and of course their is no such animal as a 10W-20. But if you are comparing oils with the same chemistry but the only difference is base oil viscosity then the volatility is often lower for heavier base oils.
But having said that, there are 0W-20s with a volatility rating (Noack) as low as 6% and almost all 0W oils are synthetic (with a couple of 0W syn blends available) and they all have low Noack values not that Noack has any real practical importance to the end user anyway.

I know the OP wasn't referring to 20 grade oils but one characteristic of many OEM 0W-20 oils is that they are lighter than 5W-20 oils not just at -40 degrees but at all start-up temp's and even at normal operating temp's. So that is something to keep in mind if one is considering using a 0W-20 where the 5W-20 grade is specified.

 

[Swift101]

Thanks for the input everyone, XOM actually recommends M1 0W-30 for my application. I'll give it a shot, don't think anything bad could come of it.

 

[CATERHAM]

You originally asked a very general question from which you can't make specific motor oil conclusions as there so many other variables to consider.
It has nothing to do with the fact it is a 0W oil but M1 0W-30 does have a lower HTHSV of 3.0cP vs 3.1cP for M1 5W-30 meaning it will be a bit lighter at operating temp's not just on start-up. On the other hand, GC 0W-30 is a heavier oil under all conditions except extreme cold.

I believe XOM recommends their 0W-30 for any 5W-30 (A1/B1, A5/B5) application. It's main advantage is for winter use but for summer their 5W-30 could be advantageous if you're seeing high oil temp's.