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#3387762 - 06/03/14 10:48 AM Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO!
MileHigh18 Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 180
Loc: TN
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?
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#3387765 - 06/03/14 10:52 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
DB_Cooper Offline


Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 235
Loc: Ga
No

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#3387768 - 06/03/14 10:54 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Drew99GT Offline


Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 20656
Loc: Colorado Springs
Huh?

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#3387770 - 06/03/14 10:55 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Realtech214 Offline


Registered: 02/01/13
Posts: 630
Loc: Florida
They cant put anything on the internet that isn't true
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#3387774 - 06/03/14 10:59 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 13435
Loc: Upstate NY
Unsure if it will ruin the cat, but its snake oil for sure!
_________________________
2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo 4.0 - PP & M1
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Amsoil ATF in both vehicles & Magnefine filter.

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#3387777 - 06/03/14 11:02 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
sayjac Offline


Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 8098
Loc: The Old North State
coffee->> popcorn-->> popcorn2--> Beer2

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#3387782 - 06/03/14 11:10 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9620
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: MileHigh18
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?

Frank (Demarpaint) has been using this stuff for years and AFAIK hasn't put a cat in anything yet.
Lets not turn this into a snake or or not thread, that always goes downhill fast.
The answer to your question is no it wont ruin the cat when used as directed.
_________________________
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#3387784 - 06/03/14 11:12 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
cwatkin Offline


Registered: 12/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: MO
I understand that all MMO is really just a diesel or kerosene type product which serves as a good cleaner in engines and fuel systems.

I know several mechanics that will only use this product when flushing out a sludgy engine. Sure, they say that Seafoam and other similar products are better at dissolving sludge. They work too well and break off large pieces all at once where they can clog critical oil passages or get into bearing surfaces and ruin them. MMO is a gentle flush so don't expect it to clean the engine out in one flush. It takes time. Basically you want the sludge out of the engine but getting it out all at once can do more harm than just leaving it be.

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#3387786 - 06/03/14 11:14 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6245
Loc: Texas
If you use it in the oil- no problem. If you put it in fuel, it does a number of questionable things, such as put a heavier unburned HC load on the catalyst, CAUSE carbon build-up on exhaust valves, lower effective octane, etc. AFAIK, it doesn't have anything that will outright poison a catalyst (tetraethyllead, methyl manganese tricarbonyl, other metallic compounds), but the added HC load doesn't help it.
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#3387794 - 06/03/14 11:23 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
exranger06 Online   confused


Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 2561
Loc: Guilford, CT
Scotty Kilmer lost a lot of respect from me when he made a video about fixing brake lines and he used a compression fitting. He has also mentioned that he like Lucas products... crush
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#3387808 - 06/03/14 11:41 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
zzyzzx Offline


Registered: 05/18/12
Posts: 1639
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
What's MMO?

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#3387814 - 06/03/14 11:45 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: zzyzzx]
exranger06 Online   confused


Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 2561
Loc: Guilford, CT
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
What's MMO?

Marvel Mystery Oil
_________________________
2006 Ford Ranger Sport -54k mi
1992 Honda Accord EX -173k mi
1994 Ford Explorer Sport -190k mi
1994 Ford Bronco XLT (project)

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#3387817 - 06/03/14 11:49 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: exranger06]
01_celica_gt Offline


Registered: 07/29/13
Posts: 611
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
What's MMO?

Marvel Mystery Oil

dang i just watched the new xmen, they really are everywhere...


Edited by 01_celica_gt (06/03/14 11:49 AM)
_________________________
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#3387826 - 06/03/14 12:04 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
RobertISaar Offline


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 141
Loc: Camden, MI, USA
kilmer also recommend dumping in a gallon of acetone(i think) into the fuel to "fix" cat efficiency codes, rather than fixing the actual issue.

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#3387843 - 06/03/14 12:22 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: RobertISaar]
Miller88 Online   content


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6498
Loc: Onondaga County
Originally Posted By: RobertISaar
kilmer also recommend dumping in a gallon of acetone(i think) into the fuel to "fix" cat efficiency codes, rather than fixing the actual issue.


That one has been around forever. Along with dumping straight alcohol into the tank of something that can't pass a sniff test.
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#3387888 - 06/03/14 01:45 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 01_celica_gt]
tinmanSC Offline


Registered: 09/07/10
Posts: 1916
Loc: Oswego, IL
Originally Posted By: 01_celica_gt
Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
What's MMO?

Marvel Mystery Oil

dang i just watched the new xmen, they really are everywhere...

crackmeup
_________________________
Cost of Hobby=2L
(Where L=Cost of Lubricant)
95 Lexus SC300 5-spd@200K, 2000 GS300@120K both VML Full Syn+Purolator PSL20195(soon to be Wix)

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#3387892 - 06/03/14 01:53 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
JR Offline


Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 920
Loc: Michigan born but my heart bel...
LOL. i have been using it for a decade or better, never have had a problem.
i buy it buy the gallon.

ken

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#3387893 - 06/03/14 01:54 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Donald]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Donald
Unsure if it will ruin the cat, but its snake oil for sure!


Certainly, as said in another thread, there is no concrete proof it does anything.
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Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3387894 - 06/03/14 01:55 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: JR]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: JR
LOL. i have been using it for a decade or better, never have had a problem.
ken


Lack of harm does not equal proof of benefit.

Cars have also been driven for decades without using it and run just fine.


Edited by Trajan (06/03/14 01:57 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3387899 - 06/03/14 02:04 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trajan]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9620
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: JR
LOL. i have been using it for a decade or better, never have had a problem.
ken


Lack of harm does not equal proof of benefit.

You mean like that snake oil that gave you more MPG at idle. LOL
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3387911 - 06/03/14 02:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
We are talking about Scotty here; if catalytic converter gets bad, he already has a remedy to fix it :-)

Actually his remedy has worked for quite a few folks.

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#3387915 - 06/03/14 02:36 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
SrDriver Online   content


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 2436
Loc: Southeast Alabama
Wife and I have been using it at the rate of around 4 oz per 10 gallons of gasoline at every fill starting when the first tank of gas is added onward with no issues or catalytic converter problems for many years and in many vehicles.

it has been used in piston driven aircraft engines for years and years too.

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#3387929 - 06/03/14 03:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6245
Loc: Texas
MMO certainly has its uses. I use it to preserve carburetors during storage, and have often dumped it down the carb of a running engine just prior to shutdown to coat the intake and cylinders for long-term storage. I can believe its a safe solvent for slow engine de-gunking.

But why, please tell me why, would anyone put an octane-reducer in fuel on a routine basis??? Light oils of any sort SIGNIFICANTLY suppress octane. As discussed on another thread here very recently, distillates like kersone and diesel have octane ratings in the ~40 range, compared to 87 for unleaded gasoline. MMO petroleum distillate content is certainly similar, and in any concentration that could have a lubricating effect it WILL also reduce the octane rating of the fuel appreciably.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 Cherokee 4.0, '11 Grand Cherokee 3.6

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#3387930 - 06/03/14 03:08 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: MileHigh18
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?

If you check the FAQ on the MMO Website it says:

Q: Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?

A: No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.

Catalytic converters are expensive to replace, so they probably did test in this area.

The most likely 'harm' would be a P0420 CEL code - low catalytic converter efficiency. The problem with P0420 codes (and the whole rear oxygen sensor thing) is that many car companies include the rear oxygen sensor simply to comply with OBDII. They don't use it for anything. If anything burps in the catalytic converter, you might get a P0420 code. It might be something serious but more likely just the quirk of how your ECU is programmed.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3387931 - 06/03/14 03:09 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Donald]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Donald
Unsure if it will ruin the cat, but its snake oil for sure!

Have you ever used it? As an oil or fuel additive? Results?
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3387935 - 06/03/14 03:16 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
If you use it in the oil- no problem.

Except that this was a fuel additive question.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
If you put it in fuel, it does a number of questionable things, such as put a heavier unburned HC load on the catalyst, CAUSE carbon build-up on exhaust valves, lower effective octane, etc.

Where do you get this? Have you ever tried it as a fuel additive?

From first hand experience, it reduces carbon build-up on valves - pretty effective in that department. Both your 66 Polara and 69 Coronet might like it.
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2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3387945 - 06/03/14 03:38 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
Miller88 Online   content


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 6498
Loc: Onondaga County
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
MMO certainly has its uses. I use it to preserve carburetors during storage, and have often dumped it down the carb of a running engine just prior to shutdown to coat the intake and cylinders for long-term storage. I can believe its a safe solvent for slow engine de-gunking.

But why, please tell me why, would anyone put an octane-reducer in fuel on a routine basis??? Light oils of any sort SIGNIFICANTLY suppress octane. As discussed on another thread here very recently, distillates like kersone and diesel have octane ratings in the ~40 range, compared to 87 for unleaded gasoline. MMO petroleum distillate content is certainly similar, and in any concentration that could have a lubricating effect it WILL also reduce the octane rating of the fuel appreciably.


It's a handy lightweight oil for when I don't want to deal with the smell of ATF (cat pee smell) or use waste oil for something.

I have used it for:
- Removing plastidip
- Putting some in a carb and spark plug well
- Light lubrication
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#3387951 - 06/03/14 03:52 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trajan]
antiqueshell Offline


Registered: 03/02/12
Posts: 4094
Loc: chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: JR
LOL. i have been using it for a decade or better, never have had a problem.
ken


Lack of harm does not equal proof of benefit.

Cars have also been driven for decades without using it and run just fine.


Exactly, I have YET to see any testing from MMO with a certified independent lab test that indicates it does ANYTHING beneficial for a modern motor vehicle.

I challenge MMO to provide us with any SAE certified independent lab results that show any benefits... "crickets chirping..." crackmeup


Edited by antiqueshell (06/03/14 03:53 PM)

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#3387952 - 06/03/14 03:52 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
ironman_gq Offline


Registered: 04/30/14
Posts: 118
Loc: MN
Not a bad cutting oil for aluminum either. Great for squeaky hinges. And it smells good. I'll use better products for cleaning my fuel system but I don't see a problem using it to "fog" an engine for storage or keep a carb from gumming up over the winter.

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#3387958 - 06/03/14 04:03 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: antiqueshell]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: JR
LOL. i have been using it for a decade or better, never have had a problem.
ken


Lack of harm does not equal proof of benefit.

Cars have also been driven for decades without using it and run just fine.


Exactly, I have YET to see any testing from MMO with a certified independent lab test that indicates it does ANYTHING beneficial for a modern motor vehicle.

I challenge MMO to provide us with any SAE certified independent lab results that show any benefits... "crickets chirping..." crackmeup


Uh oh.... You made the list by agreeing with me smile
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3387959 - 06/03/14 04:05 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21082
Loc: NY
Looks like a few of the fisherman are out...... trolling This one isn't biting right now though. Maybe a change of bait will help? LOL
_________________________
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#3387961 - 06/03/14 04:08 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum

But why, please tell me why, would anyone put an octane-reducer in fuel on a routine basis??? Light oils of any sort SIGNIFICANTLY suppress octane. As discussed on another thread here very recently, distillates like kersone and diesel have octane ratings in the ~40 range, compared to 87 for unleaded gasoline. MMO petroleum distillate content is certainly similar, and in any concentration that could have a lubricating effect it WILL also reduce the octane rating of the fuel appreciably.


Because they heard grandpa's stories of how they used this without killing their engine?

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20020916X01610&ntsbno=NYC02LA181&akey=1



Edited by Trajan (06/03/14 04:15 PM)
_________________________

Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3387966 - 06/03/14 04:19 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: antiqueshell]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Exactly, I have YET to see any testing from MMO with a certified independent lab test that indicates it does ANYTHING beneficial for a modern motor vehicle.
I challenge MMO to provide us with any SAE certified independent lab results that show any benefits...

You have yet to see any independent testing for ANY proprietary product. Manufacturers may do the testing but they keep the results to themselves. There may be independent tests of underlying ingredients (e.g. PEA) but for a variety of practical and legal reasons there are no tests of the retail product.

Have you ever used MMO as a fuel additive? What were the results?
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3387971 - 06/03/14 04:26 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trav]
Tegger Offline


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 1398
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Trav
Frank (Demarpaint) has been using this stuff for years and AFAIK hasn't put a cat in anything yet.

I put a cat into a doghouse once. It didn't go well.
_________________________
1991 Acura Integra - 414,467 miles - Mobil 1 5W-30, Honda OEM filter - **SOLD**
2013 Toyota RAV4 - 17,000 miles - Toyota 0W-20, Toyota filter

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#3387976 - 06/03/14 04:39 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
That's a problem, isn't it? I mean, name some other industry that is allowed to do that. I worked for a company that made (among other things) gas valves. There's no way we could have sold those valves without publishing specific and credible testing results directly demonstrating the valve's operating parameters.

The motor oil companies themselves (at least most of them) have to certify which standards the oil meet. Look at the melee that ensued during Katrina when Mobil had to drop the starburst and donut off their bottles.

Take any industry you want - drugs, food additives, even the water I drink from the tap. All require testing and validation. Why do you suppose the oil and fuel additives get a free pass? They are selling me something that they are telling me will perform a specific function. Why shouldn't they prove that it does what they say it will do?

Originally Posted By: dave5358
You have yet to see any independent testing for ANY proprietary product. Manufacturers may do the testing but they keep the results to themselves. There may be independent tests of underlying ingredients (e.g. PEA) but for a variety of practical and legal reasons there are no tests of the retail product.

Have you ever used MMO as a fuel additive? What were the results?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 189K
1996 Honda Accord, 203K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 304K
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#3387982 - 06/03/14 04:44 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
JJ717 Online   content


Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 25
Loc: Central PA
How does a 4 ounce dose in 10 gallons of gasoline "significantly reduce octane"? By my math, that's a 1/320 ratio, and my back of the envelope calculations for 10 gallons of 87 octane, with a 4 ounce dose of MMO (assuming 40 octane) gives a final octane rating of 86.859 for the resulting 10.03 gallons of fuel.

Anyone have octane ratings for Techron, TC-W3, etc?

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#3387988 - 06/03/14 04:48 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: JJ717]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7207
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: JJ717
How does a 4 ounce dose in 10 gallons of gasoline "significantly reduce octane"? By my math, that's a 1/320 ratio, and my back of the envelope calculations for 10 gallons of 87 octane, with a 4 ounce dose of MMO (assuming 40 octane) gives a final octane rating of 86.859 for the resulting 10.03 gallons of fuel.

Anyone have octane ratings for Techron, TC-W3, etc?


Hehehe.
Yep its so significant lets hope the engines knock sensors are working properly.
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Miles x 2 per oil filter

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#3387991 - 06/03/14 04:51 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
RobertISaar Offline


Registered: 08/21/12
Posts: 141
Loc: Camden, MI, USA
i seem to remember the TC-W3 octane rating also being in the 40 range. at the 640:1 most people run it at, the impact on octane is probably half of that of a bad batch of fuel.

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#3388007 - 06/03/14 05:23 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: JJ717]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: JJ717
How does a 4 ounce dose in 10 gallons of gasoline "significantly reduce octane"? By my math, that's a 1/320 ratio, and my back of the envelope calculations for 10 gallons of 87 octane, with a 4 ounce dose of MMO (assuming 40 octane) gives a final octane rating of 86.859 for the resulting 10.03 gallons of fuel. <snip>

It doesn't. Just another straw man.

MMO may be good or bad or useful or not... but reduced octane rating has nothing to do with the final verdict.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3388011 - 06/03/14 05:27 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Tegger]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9620
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Trav
Frank (Demarpaint) has been using this stuff for years and AFAIK hasn't put a cat in anything yet.

I put a cat into a doghouse once. It didn't go well.

LOL Good one! cheers
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#3388057 - 06/03/14 06:35 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
That's a problem, isn't it? I mean, name some other industry that is allowed to do that. I worked for a company that made (among other things) gas valves. There's no way we could have sold those valves without publishing specific and credible testing results directly demonstrating the valve's operating parameters.

The motor oil companies themselves (at least most of them) have to certify which standards the oil meet. Look at the melee that ensued during Katrina when Mobil had to drop the starburst and donut off their bottles.

Take any industry you want - drugs, food additives, even the water I drink from the tap. All require testing and validation. Why do you suppose the oil and fuel additives get a free pass? They are selling me something that they are telling me will perform a specific function. Why shouldn't they prove that it does what they say it will do?


Even gas from some unbranded gas and puke has to meet Federal minimum standards.





Edited by Trajan (06/03/14 06:37 PM)
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#3388072 - 06/03/14 06:46 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trajan]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: kschachn
That's a problem, isn't it? I mean, name some other industry that is allowed to do that. I worked for a company that made (among other things) gas valves. There's no way we could have sold those valves without publishing specific and credible testing results directly demonstrating the valve's operating parameters.

The motor oil companies themselves (at least most of them) have to certify which standards the oil meet. Look at the melee that ensued during Katrina when Mobil had to drop the starburst and donut off their bottles.

Take any industry you want - drugs, food additives, even the water I drink from the tap. All require testing and validation. Why do you suppose the oil and fuel additives get a free pass? They are selling me something that they are telling me will perform a specific function. Why shouldn't they prove that it does what they say it will do?


Even gas from some unbranded gas and puke has to meet Federal minimum standards.

Federal minimum standards for what? Who inspects? Who enforces?

Hereabouts, about the only requirement is that if you pump 1 gallon, you will get at least 1 quart. The county auditor is supposed to check the pumps for accurate delivery and then puts a sticker on the pump (vote for Hoolihan). There may be industry standards but they are self-enforced - a tank farm operator doesn't want to get stuck with a shipment of off-spec product.

But "Federal minimum standards"? You might want to check before making that claim.
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#3388273 - 06/03/14 10:05 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
boxcartommie22 Offline


Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 2983
Loc: moutain country
+2 440magnum


Edited by boxcartommie22 (06/03/14 10:06 PM)
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#3388860 - 06/04/14 04:43 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: RobertISaar]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6245
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: RobertISaar
i seem to remember the TC-W3 octane rating also being in the 40 range. at the 640:1 most people run it at, the impact on octane is probably half of that of a bad batch of fuel.


I agree.... but at that type of concentration of MMO, do you really believe its doing ANYTHING? I mean literally ANYTHING at all, whether beneficial or not?

That's my point. In such a low concentration, its probably not doing anything. At least cleaners with PEA have a chemical mechanism that arguably works in such low concentrations.

As for the octane reduction: People put PCV catch-cans on cars to reduce the oil contamination and octane reduction from PCV system mist (as well as keep the intake cleaner). Depending on the car, that's on the order of a couple tablespoons per thousand miles. If that low dosing can cause pinging, seems like a similar dosing of the distillates in MMO could cause pinging.

I'm not bashing MMO. Read back, I've used it. Just not as a routine fuel additive.
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#3388871 - 06/04/14 04:53 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Tegger]
kmrcstintn Offline


Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 353
Loc: Palmyra, PA
Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Trav
Frank (Demarpaint) has been using this stuff for years and AFAIK hasn't put a cat in anything yet.


I put a cat into a doghouse once. It didn't go well.


crackmeup
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#3388959 - 06/04/14 06:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I agree.... but at that type of concentration of MMO, do you really believe its doing ANYTHING? I mean literally ANYTHING at all, whether beneficial or not?

That's my point. In such a low concentration, its probably not doing anything. At least cleaners with PEA have a chemical mechanism that arguably works in such low concentrations.

It's very cynical to think it's been sold for almost 100 years and is not doing anything.

Regardless, 'not doing anything' has not been my experience. I first encountered MMO in the military. We mooched it from the Air Force in 5-gallon jerry cans, for use in several stationary engines (via oilers). I think the Air Force, who stocked MMO in 55-gallon drums, was using it as a fuel additive in light observation planes (Piper-Cessna-like aircraft). It is still used in general aviation aircraft. It was widely used around south Texas in stationary engines, oil-field equipment.

Somewhat later, during the days of smog pumps, I had an automobile engine that was burning valves... MMO was the cure. The first set of valves barely made 20,000 miles - the second set was still going strong at 80k. As an added benefit, I got a measurable increase [see message 3204737] in cylinder pressures, which should translate into more power and/or increased mileage. Even a 1-mpg mileage increase would pay for the MMO (which is relatively inexpensive).

I've torn down engines that had been running MMO for an extended period. The internal engine parts - rings, cylinder heads, piston tops, valves - were very clean - looked new - it was a pleasure working on the engine. I suspect that it would also keep carburetors and fuel system parts clean as well, but most of the time I have put MMO directly into the engine with an oiler, which bypasses most of the fuel system. I've rarely used it as an oil additive. On those occasions, it seemed to work - a lot of crud came out of the pan - but the results may have been the same with or without the MMO.

I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it. Add Scotty Kilmer (in the subject line) to the never-used-it-but-don't-like-it ranks.
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#3389015 - 06/04/14 07:14 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I'm not bashing MMO. Read back, I've used it. Just not as a routine fuel additive.

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.
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#3389028 - 06/04/14 07:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7068
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I'm not bashing MMO. Read back, I've used it. Just not as a routine fuel additive.

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.


Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.
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#3389031 - 06/04/14 07:32 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.

Spoken like a person who has never used MMO. Sir, there is nothing that could be done to convince you. As noted above, I don't expect to make any converts.
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#3389040 - 06/04/14 07:40 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7068
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Doing this would not prove anything. Also smoking tobacco has been sold for 500 years add or take a decade or two. Just because a product has been sold for a period of time does not mean the benefits of a product outweigh the negatives.

Spoken like a person who has never used MMO. Sir, there is nothing that could be done to convince you. As noted above, I don't expect to make any converts.


Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson. I have in fact used MMO both as a fuel system cleaner and as a oil additive.

Guess what happened? Any answer other than a whole lot of nothing is the incorrect answer.

Troll around websites that post UOA's. Find one with a leaky fuel injector and have the poster use only MMO with the prescribed dosage no other fuel system additive. Will MMO solve the leaky injector problem.

This would prove something.
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make the inside of your engine oil cap white.
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#3389051 - 06/04/14 07:54 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson. I have in fact used MMO both as a fuel system cleaner and as a oil additive.

I am not a spokesperson for MMO. Rather than getting testy or name calling, why don't you describe your specific uses of MMO? What did you hope to achieve? What actually happened? You mentioned using it as an oil additive - what was your goal?

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Troll around websites that post UOA's. Find one with a leaky fuel injector and have the poster use only MMO with the prescribed dosage no other fuel system additive. Will MMO solve the leaky injector problem. This would prove something.

My fuel injectors don't leak. If they did, MMO might solve the problem, maybe, maybe not. Why do you suggest that application? Have you tried it? What would it prove?
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#3389081 - 06/04/14 08:23 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7068
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
1, My goal was simple. I found a dirty Vulcan that has some sludge due to the infamous coolant leaking problems Vulcan's can have.

Guess what that Vulcan was not any cleaner after following MMO's instructions.


2, If you can find a engine with a leaky injector and if MMO can correct the leaky injector I would be surprised.

There have been UOA's that have found problems with engines fuel systems. Often the recommendation is to try a modern fuel system cleaner that is PEA based. PEA based cleaners such as Techron and Regane have proven their worth.


MMO was once cutting edge and useful. It's day in the sun has come and gone according to my experience and opinion.
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don't use.

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#3389084 - 06/04/14 08:27 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 3694
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: dave5358

Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.


That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.
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#3389185 - 06/04/14 10:20 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251
My goal was simple. I found a dirty Vulcan that has some sludge due to the infamous coolant leaking problems Vulcan's can have. Guess what that Vulcan was not any cleaner after following MMO's instructions.

You added MMO to the oil of a Kawasaki Vulcan motorcycle. The oil was contaminated with coolant from a fitting or head-gasket leak. Do I have the basic facts correct?

You were not satisfied with its cleaning function. I doubt that MMO has 'instructions' for this specific situation, but okay, chalk it up to a failure. If it were me, I would be less concerned about sludge and more concerned about the coolant eating my bearings.

Originally Posted By: dave1251
If you can find a engine with a leaky injector and if MMO can correct the leaky injector I would be surprised.

So your conclusion is that this wouldn't work, but you haven't tried it. I'll confess, I haven't tried it either, but I wouldn't condemn a product to failure based on not trying something.

Originally Posted By: dave1251
There have been UOA's that have found problems with engines fuel systems. Often the recommendation is to try a modern fuel system cleaner that is PEA based. PEA based cleaners such as Techron and Regane have proven their worth.

MMO was once cutting edge and useful. It's day in the sun has come and gone according to my experience and opinion.

Okay, we should conclude MMO's day has come and gone... because Techron and Regane have proven their worth? You can prove I was in Cleveland on Tuesday, because you were in Cincinnati on Thursday?

I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it.
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#3389199 - 06/04/14 10:38 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: badtlc]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.

That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.

Wind direction? Altitude changes? How about average speed? Average grade? Proximity of the moon? That is is not simple at all. One simple thing you might check is tire pressure - good advice whether you do MMO or not.

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???
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#3389210 - 06/04/14 10:59 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.

That is terrible advice. The two directions of a round trip will almost always produce different MPGs because of altitude changes and wind direction. The only way to do a trip test is to do the round trip once and calculate MPGs to negate any influence of wind and altitude changes. Then do the same trip with at the same approximate ambient temperature and your new variable.

Wind direction? Altitude changes? How about average speed? Average grade? Proximity of the moon? That is is not simple at all. One simple thing you might check is tire pressure - good advice whether you do MMO or not.

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???


Then do it yourself.
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#3389234 - 06/04/14 11:22 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
You can mow me down too, like everyone else who has said the same thing, but this test would prove nothing. It would be far better to test it in the same direction on days with similar weather.

Even then, no two days are exactly alike in weather and wind speed and direction do make a difference. So does the OAT, so does the kind of gas you bought. So does your velocity and it isn't as simple as average velocity either - instantaneous is also important.

But at least running the same exact route would help a lot rather than going the other way for the second test.

And running it more than twice.


Originally Posted By: dave5358
Here's a simple test you (or anyone) can try. It's summer, so you might be taking a trip, right? The next time you start a trip (say 400-500 miles or more one way), fill up your vehicle right before you leave. Note your odometer reading. Fill it up again, promptly, when you reach your destination. Compute your mpg for the outbound leg of your trip.

When you get ready to return home, do the same thing: fill up right before you leave, but add a pint of MMO (a pint is good for about 15 gallons of fuel - adjust for your tank size). Note your odometer. If you fill up en route, add another pint of MMO with each fill up. When you finally get home, fill up promptly and then calculate your mpg again.
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#3389403 - 06/05/14 06:58 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trajan]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: dave5358
<snip>I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO. And, that's terrible advice???


Then do it yourself.

No, you do it. I already use MMO. Over the years, in a wide variety of situations, it has performed as advertised. I also provided specific details of at least one way I reached that conclusion.

If someone reading the thread is actually looking for information and not just trolling, the test I suggested is a simple introduction to the product.
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#3389412 - 06/05/14 07:09 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>And running it more than twice.

Do I get to to go on vacation more than twice? Should I have a representative of F.I.A. along to certify the results? On all of the vacations, or just one?

I proposed a simple test. The result will be anecdotal [as are just about all recommendations for additives] but the result should speak for itself. If someone tries this test and gets a positive result, they may wish to experiment further. If they don't see any benefit, then they're out the price of a few pints of MMO.

The amount of hostility to my proposal is absolutely amazing. I am aware of BITOG users whose religion cannot conceive of upper cylinder lubrication. I don't expect to make any converts. It's also unclear what that group might say which would change my actual experiences with MMO, particularly since most of them have never used it.
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#3389471 - 06/05/14 08:07 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
Well, call it hostility all you like, take it personal, make jokes about the F.I.A. (whatever that is), say we don't have input because we haven't used the product, or say whatever you want to say - but it isn't personal. If someone wants to test something it needs to be a valid test.

The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal. But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it". Rather, devise and run a better test that aims to eliminate variables as much as possible. That's the only way any kind of credible evidence is going to be obtained.
_________________________
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#3389539 - 06/05/14 09:12 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, call it hostility all you like, take it personal, make jokes about the F.I.A. (whatever that is), say we don't have input because we haven't used the product, or say whatever you want to say - but it isn't personal. If someone wants to test something it needs to be a valid test.

The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal. But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it". Rather, devise and run a better test that aims to eliminate variables as much as possible. That's the only way any kind of credible evidence is going to be obtained.
approved
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#3389552 - 06/05/14 09:26 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

According to you "no two days are exactly alike." That's true enough. Since, two trips will never be identical in all aspects, I guess no test would ever be possible. Problem solved.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal.

I thought I was the one who said the results would be anecdotal. There really are no controlled tests of proprietary additive products. Almost all evaluations of proprietary additive products boil down to anecdotes. So what?

Originally Posted By: kschachn
But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

I drive from Ohio to DC. I drive from DC back to Ohio. Are those routes completely different?

Originally Posted By: kschachn
This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it".

'Actual experience' is hardly a straw man. If you have actual experience with a product, I'm sure everyone would like to hear about it. If you have special training or expertise that bears on the question, please share that too. If you are trying to learn about a product, welcome aboard! Isn't that what this forum is for?

Finally, there are BITOG trolls who, by virtue of their superior intellect or cosmic vision or whatever, can magically divine that a product is good or bad - no actual experience is required. Or they can discern that a methodology is sound or flawed... or that some anecdotes are acceptable (usually for products they like) while other anecdotes just don't cut it.

Unless you have some special expertise in the area or you have used a product, thinking readers might conclude that your opinion doesn't even rise to the level of an anecdote. Please don't take that personally, but it's rather difficult to escape that conclusion.
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#3389617 - 06/05/14 10:51 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
BearZDefect Offline


Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 1896
Loc: Lexington, KY
Originally Posted By: dave5358
I drive from Ohio to DC. I drive from DC back to Ohio. Are those routes completely different?

Yes, they are different.
First there are altitude changes. Then there are variables that we can't control, like wind direction, ambient temperature, rain, etc. All of these affect fuel consumption.

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#3389656 - 06/05/14 11:22 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.


You didn't really mean to type "so what", did you?

Do I have special expertise? Yes I do. I was a senior research technologist for a large company for many years. What a research technologist does is to design and implement investigative tests at the direction of a research scientist. The scientist wants to know something so he directs the technologist to come up with a testing program that isolates and investigates the properties in question. I then wrote either a research brief or research report that was presented and critiqued by the entire research staff at my company. I have also written and had published papers on some of the work I did. My education is a BSME with a minor in chemistry, not that it matters.

Real-world MPG testing is notoriously difficult. And since the result one is looking at for these additives is very small, that makes it all the more difficult. Previously someone posted an approximately 1% mileage increase due to another additive. Do you know how difficult it would be to accurately measure a 1% process difference outside of a laboratory? And even if you could, then you have to correlate the change to the additive.

There was a pretty good article a while back by a car magazine that wanted to do some real-world testing of MPG. In just one example they learned that the “same” fuel purchased at different gas stations can result in a 4% mileage differential, so what you have to do is purchase special uniform testing fuel if you want anything accurate. And this is just fuel. Pile on top of that everything else that is a variable and it becomes almost impossible to measure - and attribute - small MPG changes unless extraordinary measures are taken.

I don’t know what else to tell you.
_________________________
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#3389698 - 06/05/14 11:59 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

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#3389703 - 06/05/14 12:02 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6245
Loc: Texas
OK, all anecdotes aside:

Can anyone tell me an accepted engineering or chemical MECHANISM by which MMO added to fuel could even theoretically increase fuel economy in a modern engine with computer controls?

I've already provided such a mechanism by which it could theoretically reduce fuel economy (timing retard due to lowered effective octane). I've pointed out the lengths we got to in order to prevent similar percentage contamination by engine oil. Dismiss ALL of that if you will and we'll call it a draw. But I'd like to know just how anyone thinks it works to increase fuel economy.

And I'll repeat for the third time: I've used MMO for many purposes and I like it particularly for long-term storage of engines- just not as a routine fuel additive.
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#3389715 - 06/05/14 12:11 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
FetchFar Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 831
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
If you use it in the oil- no problem. If you put it in fuel, it does a number of questionable things, such as put a heavier unburned HC load on the catalyst, CAUSE carbon build-up on exhaust valves, lower effective octane, etc. AFAIK, it doesn't have anything that will outright poison a catalyst (tetraethyllead, methyl manganese tricarbonyl, other metallic compounds), but the added HC load doesn't help it.


I was going to disagree and say MMO (if its really just kerosene with red dye) raises octane. I was confusing lower-octane with higher-volatility, not combustibility under pressure. My bad. Yeah, it does lower octane. .... Actually, if you mixed a little MMO with alcohol, you could raise octane and cleaning power at the same time.... hmmmm


Edited by FetchFar (06/05/14 12:24 PM)
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#3389815 - 06/05/14 02:17 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Vikas
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.


But you know how the anecdote crowd frowns and poopoos on data. They much prefer you accept claims on their face.
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#3390002 - 06/05/14 05:36 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.

You didn't really mean to type "so what", did you?

I meant exactly what I said. I suggested a starting point. If the results are imperfect, you are welcome to suggest a better method.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Do I have special expertise? Yes I do. I was a senior research technologist for a large company for many years. What a research technologist does is to design and implement investigative tests at the direction of a research scientist. The scientist wants to know something so he directs the technologist to come up with a testing program that isolates and investigates the properties in question. I then wrote either a research brief or research report that was presented and critiqued by the entire research staff at my company. I have also written and had published papers on some of the work I did. My education is a BSME with a minor in chemistry, not that it matters.

Real-world MPG testing is notoriously difficult. And since the result one is looking at for these additives is very small, that makes it all the more difficult. Previously someone posted an approximately 1% mileage increase due to another additive. Do you know how difficult it would be to accurately measure a 1% process difference outside of a laboratory? And even if you could, then you have to correlate the change to the additive.<snip>

I don’t know what else to tell you.

Tell me a solution.

You seem to understand the problems of real-world testing, but I have yet to hear a positive suggestion from you. Of course road and climate and a zillion other things may intervene. We live in an imperfect world. What else is new? Does that mean there is no way to get a handle on this problem?

The question is: does MMO (or TCW3 or any similar product) added to the fuel or intake system have any effect on a gasoline engine? MPG changes would be nice, but let's not be picky.

One approach would be to run the engine on a measured amount of fuel, and then again on a measured amount of fuel plus additive. Does the engine run longer? This exact test was done by an 11th grader in South Caroline in a test on fuel efficiency. The young man used Lucas UCL and a Homelite leaf blower in an amazingly simple test. While I see some issues with what he did (and I'm no Lucas fan) it was pretty clear the the Lucas product did something - changed the performance of the Homelite engine in a positive manner.

Or how about testing cylinder pressures with and without MMO being added? I witnessed this test [see message 3204737] done by a clever auto-shop teacher with my own vehicle used as the test bed. You could turn the oiler on and pressures would go up. Turn it off and they would go down. Turn it on and they went up again. There was nothing unique about my engine, save for the fact that it was very accessible.

If a clever South Carolina high school student and a Virginia high school shop teacher, in a completely unscripted demonstration, can test this phenomenon using a few simple tools and a simple approach, perhaps you can suggest a better testing solution. And, if it's not perfect, so what? I will applaud your effort, rather than attack the flaws.

But, please don't tell me that all you can do is come up with reasons as to why this can't be done or can't be tested.
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#3390021 - 06/05/14 05:53 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

It might be nice, but you really don't need double-blind testing for something like this. But, you do need a lot of data points and then see if one set is different than the other. There can be a fair amount of slop in the numbers and the result should still be valid - thanks to the wonder of statistics.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

Exactly right. But understand that in the 'additives' arena, anecdotes are about all you will find. The product manufacturers, who really know, won't tell - much better to rely on summaries and anecdotes and endorsements. Richard Petty and STP are the living embodiment of this concept.

Universities, test labs, people who might do independent testing won't test proprietary products unless it's sponsored by the manufacturer - too many legal issues.

So if you don't like anecdotes, you're probably going to go hungry.
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#3390027 - 06/05/14 06:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Can anyone tell me an accepted engineering or chemical MECHANISM by which MMO added to fuel could even theoretically increase fuel economy in a modern engine with computer controls?

Increased cylinder pressures. See my post a couple of message above. In that aspect, older engines are no different than their modern computer-laden cousins.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've already provided such a mechanism by which it could theoretically reduce fuel economy (timing retard due to lowered effective octane).

Several responders pointed out that, in the percentages of MMO in fuel for automotive use, octane change was not an issue. The numbers suggest that it is not an issue.

Strangely enough the Air Force may have used MMO to reduce octane ratings for fuel in light observation aircraft. I'm no aviation expert but I think the matter went something like this: many small planes were originally designed for 80 octane leaded avgas. But, that product was discontinued - no longer available. The fix was to use 100 octane avgas with MMO as a buffer. Aviation octane ratings may be a bit different than ratings for automobile gasoline: 100 octane leaded avgas may be the equivalent of 125 octane motor fuel.

We need an aviation person to jump in and correct whatever I've got wrong on this.
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#3390053 - 06/05/14 06:51 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7207
Loc: Saskatoon canada
I can certainly understand how an inverse oiler,or mmo mixed with fuel could increase compression and honestly it makes sense that it would.
I can tell you that on my 06 charger I can tell when the inverse oiler is empty by how the car behaves with light throttle inputs.
Wide open I can't tell any difference but I certainly can tell when its empty.
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#3390101 - 06/05/14 07:58 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21082
Loc: NY
Yawn........Here we go again. Sorry I couldn't resist. Lets face facts if there was credible data out there supporting the product didn't work as many claim, they'd be posting it. So we go full circle again. The data the data lovers crave, for or against these products is hard to come by. So if you don't believe in anecdotal evidence stand clear. People who believe all the positive testimony, give it a shot and report back. Pretty simple actually.
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#3390365 - 06/06/14 06:09 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251, in response to a post by dave5358
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson.

But in this thread [at message 3389959] you said:

"And Lubegard can research, test, formulate, market, distribute, finance, and produce a product that dramatically improves lubrication and sell said product at a very low cost to the consumer while remaining profitable."

Wow! That's impressive. Is that what a Lubegard spokesperson does?
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#3390401 - 06/06/14 06:56 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In layman terms, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other. Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

Okay, here's the 6/6/2014 edition of the poor man's multiple-data-point solution to test... almost anything:

Equipment: To make this work, your car needs a 'computer' which shows instant or snapshot MPG readings. The computer could be built in (many late model vehicles have them) or add-on like the Auterra Dash Dyno or Scangauge or Ultragauge. The only computer requirement is that it provide instant fuel economy readings - not average or trip MPG. FWIW, the Ultragauge is relatively cheaper than the pack - maybe $80-90 including a mount. Has anybody used one of them?

You also need a clipboard, kitchen timer and some colored ink pens.

Method: While on a trip, every ten minutes, record the instant mpg reading from the computer. Exclude any readings if your vehicle speed is above 75mph or below 55mph [adjust these limits to your situation - you want to exclude less-than-top-gear situations as well as 'passing' situations]. When the timer sounds, you record the mpg on the clipboard and re-start the timer. You could also adjust the time interval to 5 minutes or 8 minutes or something else - you would just have more or fewer data points.

Refueling: If you are testing the utility of MMO or similar fuel additive, you could drive for at least 15 miles after the fuel light came on before refueling. Again, adjust this for your vehicle's quirks. If driving with the fuel light 'on' seems risky, you could carry a spare gallon of fuel in a can. Use the different colored pens to record data points from fuel fill-ups with additive versus those without.

When you get home, simply plot the points. For the additive to be successful, there should be different clusters between the 'with' and 'without' data sets.

Miscellaneous: In addition to fuel additives, you could also test different tire pressures, maybe even oil additives (if you were careful about refueling with the same brand and grade of fuel).
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#3390423 - 06/06/14 07:25 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
I put about $16K miles on my 2012 Acura strictly for highway commuting of 30 miles each way. In two years, the car has not been on any other trip at all! When driving Acura, I drive like a grandma to maximize my fuel economy. I take it as a challenge to see what is the best mileage that I can get. The car computer is always displaying both tank and instant fuel economy. My life time average in this car is close to 31 mpg which is pretty impressive when you consider I am driving 270 hp automatic transmission equipped "bucktooth whale with an enormous butt"! I refuel at only two of the gas stations, either near my house (shell premium) or near my work (mobil premium).

EVEN WITH SUCH CONSISTENT OPERATING ENVIRONMENT, MY TANK TO TANK AND INSTANTANEOUS MILEAGE VARIES EXCESS OF 10%

So anybody who tells you that his mileage increased by 1% by doing *SOMETHING* does not understand the physics or statistics or how to measure things.

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#3390582 - 06/06/14 10:53 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7068
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: dave1251, in response to a post by dave5358
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson.

But in this thread [at message 3389959] you said:

"And Lubegard can research, test, formulate, market, distribute, finance, and produce a product that dramatically improves lubrication and sell said product at a very low cost to the consumer while remaining profitable."

Wow! That's impressive. Is that what a Lubegard spokesperson does?


I have no clue what a Lubegard spokesperson does. I should of made it clear my sarcasm power pack was set to full.
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#3390748 - 06/06/14 02:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?

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#3390754 - 06/06/14 02:31 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7207
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Vikas
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?



Just fight with all the Dave's then you got all bases covered.
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#3390918 - 06/06/14 05:31 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Clevy]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Vikas
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?

Just fight with all the Dave's then you got all bases covered.

Fueding among product spokespersons aside, surely someone has a thought on measuring methodology for effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a fuel additive. Are we bested by an 11th grader?
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#3391495 - 06/07/14 02:24 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
MileHigh18 Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 180
Loc: TN
To throw my hat in the ring, I started using MMO myself. I only use 87 unleaded with no ethanol in my vehicle. I've now run 2 tanks with MMO added at the proper ratio, and my vehicle honestly feels a little sluggish. Gonna fill up later today at the same place I always do sans MMO and see how it feels.
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#3391617 - 06/07/14 05:48 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
If you overdose on MMO, this is exactly how it feels. Next time you feel like trying MKMO again, cut down on the ratio.

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#3391639 - 06/07/14 06:23 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If you overdose on MMO, this is exactly how it feels. Next time you feel like trying MMO again, cut down on the ratio.

He said he put it in at the right ratio - not exactly sure what he was using. The website says 4oz MMO per 10 gallons of fuel. Maybe he had a mixing problem or it all went to the bottom of the tank.

In oiler land, 1 quart per 1000 miles is what I try to achieve. For many vehicles, that works out to about ~1/3 quart per fill-up. Or, if you use (or re-bottle into) pint bottles, about 2/3 pint per fill-up.he ratio. [/quote]
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#3391702 - 06/07/14 07:33 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Fueding among product spokespersons aside, surely someone has a thought on measuring methodology for effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a fuel additive. Are we bested by an 11th grader?


You aren't going to like my suggestion, but you would never test a fuel additive's performance in the wild (but you might test other things about, it like corrosion). Just as you would never test a new type of spark plug, or a different type of fuel, or a new piston design, or anything when you are looking for the effect of one parameter.

Back when I was in school the way you tested stuff like this was with a one-cylinder test engine. You used the same fuel for all your tests and gathered your results. It was all corrected for any temperature and pressure variances. In this way, you can measure small changes and most importantly you can attribute changes to the parameter under test. Out in the real world, there are just too many things that cannot be controlled and this will more than likely prevent you from attributing any measured effect to any specific parameter.

The only time you do real-world fuel economy testing is when that is the thing you are testing. For example, somebody may wish to compare the EPA fuel economy tests to real-world driving. In this case what you are testing is real world driving. I found that article I referenced earlier:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1401_real_numbers_mpg_101/

This article touches on the challenges of this test, and is where I got the 4% variance number for fuel. It was worse than I remembered though, they are claiming the difference from fuel from the same station (I thought it was from different stations). But note this test is to test real-world fuel economy, not to test some small change in some parameter for the engine.

I really think you would need a test engine in a laboratory for any decent measurements. It bugs me that an additive manufacturer would not publish any such results. Surely the have tested it like this; it isn't an expensive test. In my experience one is generally secretive about test results when they do not prove something you are trying to show.
_________________________
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#3391832 - 06/07/14 10:58 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>I really think you would need a test engine in a laboratory for any decent measurements. It bugs me that an additive manufacturer would not publish any such results. Surely the have tested it like this; it isn't an expensive test. In my experience one is generally secretive about test results when they do not prove something you are trying to show.

I'm working on some other parts of your comments. But, as to manufacturers not releasing results the reasons are both legal and social. If/when a company gets sued (e.g. MMO for screwing up someone's catalytic converter or STP for false advertising) lawyers typically try to use the company's own research against them (Look at this 1 test out of 58 that you performed and the catalytic converter melted!). But, they have to get this research, and most judges won't allow it to be discovered, as against social policy. But, if a company publishes the research (rather than just a summary), all bets are off. You and I both know that research frequently has some aberrant results (the mice all died on test #214. But they lived just fine, got smarter, even got into Harvard, in 499 other tests). I don't necessarily believe companies have something to hide. Maybe, maybe not. But they still keep their cards very close to the vest.

As for an independent researcher reviewing a proprietary product, forget it. Even if the results were positive, the researcher is likely to get a 'cease and desist' letter from the company's lawyer (Dear Sir: You may not use our name or our products name in anything you are doing, for now until eternity!) Game over. I'm surprised the Lucas folks didn't send a lawyer letter to that kid in South Carolina.

Consumers Union (the Consumer Reports folks) occupy a very unique position - they test brand names, generally without the manufacturer's permission. And, even they get sued. But they are so wrapped in 'public purpose' they are almost an arm of the government. Sadly, they haven't done a review of oils or additives that i have found.

From a business perspective, it makes more sense (and more profits) to market your product based on endorsements, anecdotes, glowing summaries, etc. Think Richard Petty and STP - a marriage made in heaven.

Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G

Or Billy-Bob Cooter driving the Atomic Oil Special to victory in the Toilet Bowl 500. Who cares that the Atomic Oil Special was designed in France, assembled in Germany by master mechanics, monitored during the race by computers and will be torn down completely and rebuilt after each race... and may not even use Atomic Oil (well, a few drops for good measure). Both Billy-Bob and the car have Atomic Oil emblazoned all over everywhere. And just to make sure you don't look away, Miss Atomic Oil, whose wardrobe consists of only skimpy bikinis (also emblazoned with Atomic Oil's logo), is always available for photo-ops. Oh, look, there she is pouring a few drops of Atomic Oil into the Atomic Oil Special. S-H-0-W B-I-Z
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#3392290 - 06/08/14 03:36 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
MileHigh18 Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 180
Loc: TN
My tank holds 18.7 gallons so I added about 6 ounces to my tank. Maybe a hair over that so if anything I may have added less than what I should have.


Edited by MileHigh18 (06/08/14 03:37 PM)
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#3392316 - 06/08/14 04:02 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8095
Loc: NorthEast
Quote:
Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G
I am not sure if you are getting the point that some of us are making. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to measure the 1.3% increase without laboratory conditions. If the deviation between two readings is of the order of 1-2%, then you just can NOT prove 1.3% gains by scientific methods.

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#3392324 - 06/08/14 04:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3314
Loc: SE PA
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#3392330 - 06/08/14 04:34 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G

I am not sure if you are getting the point that some of us are making. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to measure the 1.3% increase without laboratory conditions.

My response was only to part of kschachn's message. I do get your point. And, you are right - small gains can be very hard to measure or verify.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
If the deviation between two readings is of the order of 1-2%, then you just can NOT prove 1.3% gains by scientific methods.

You can if you have enough data points. More to the point on this discussion, you can prove that an engine runs better or more efficiently or differently with and without the additive. You may not be able to quantify that it is 1.3% better, but definitely better or worse.
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#3392947 - 06/09/14 11:07 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Mephy Offline


Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 278
Loc: Toronto
I use it in the fuel sometimes.

The ratio is very lean 1:800.

I think the main beneficial effect is that better the atomization of fuel.

I do not believe higher dosage will do better.

I see It just as fuel conditioner.
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20.000 km OCI.
One bottle of PI before OCI.
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#3392971 - 06/09/14 11:37 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Mephy]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2553
Loc: Upper Midwest
Why would you think that? Is that a manufacturer's claim for the product?

Originally Posted By: Mephy
I use it in the fuel sometimes.

The ratio is very lean 1:800.

I think the main beneficial effect is that better the atomization of fuel.

I do not believe higher dosage will do better.

I see It just as fuel conditioner.
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1994 BMW 530i, 189K
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#3393807 - 06/10/14 09:28 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
Mephy Offline


Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 278
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Why would you think that? Is that a manufacturer's claim for the product?

Originally Posted By: Mephy
I use it in the fuel sometimes.

The ratio is very lean 1:800.

I think the main beneficial effect is that better the atomization of fuel.

I do not believe higher dosage will do better.

I see It just as fuel conditioner.


No,

from my experience, I have better combustion.

I can see from the mileage, the performance of the car and the cleanliness of the exhausting pipe.
_________________________
Amsoil ASL-5w30
EA Amsoil oil filter
Wix air filter
20.000 km OCI.
One bottle of PI before OCI.
Amsoil Interceptor 800:1 each tank

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#3397046 - 06/13/14 10:39 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: MileHigh18
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?


Yes. 1000 ppm P. P poisons cat converter.

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#3397203 - 06/14/14 06:56 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: friendly_jacek]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MileHigh18
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?

Yes. 1000 ppm P. P poisons cat converter.

If you check the FAQ on the MMO Website it says:

Q: Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?

A: No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.
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#3397381 - 06/14/14 12:20 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
friendly_jacek Offline


Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 5247
Loc: southeast US
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MileHigh18
I usually watch Scotty Kilmer on YouTube, and noticed he commented that you shouldn't use MMO in a modern car because it ruins the catalytic converter. Is there any truth to this?

Yes. 1000 ppm P. P poisons cat converter.

If you check the FAQ on the MMO Website it says:

Q: Will MMO cause any damage to oxygen sensors, fuel sensors or catalytic converters?

A: No. MMO has undergone rigorous testing to ensure the safety of all internal components in your vehicle including highly-sensitive oxygen sensors, fuel sensors and catalytic converters.


I don't know how they "tested" and I don't care what they say.
Facts speak for themselves. The damage could be slow and may take more than 100,000 miles to declare itself.

If one has to have add things to gasoline, there are things that don't have sulfur or phosphorus.

I'm not bashing MMO, I use it for piston soaks when needed.

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#3397390 - 06/14/14 12:35 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 21082
Loc: NY
I had a little over 212,000 miles when I junked my Aerostar. I used MMO in the gas since I bought it with about 50K miles on it. It went to the junk yard with the original CC and 02 sensor. My 88 E-150 was fed MMO via an inverse oiler since it was about 6 months old, I think. The original CC is still in there as well. I did change the 02 sensor although it wasn't needed. I've used it in the gas in other vehicles as well since the mid 70's. Honestly I believe them when they say is is CC and O2 sensor safe. Opinions vary.
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#3397463 - 06/14/14 03:11 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: friendly_jacek]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
I don't know how they "tested" and I don't care what they say.
Facts speak for themselves. The damage could be slow and may take more than 100,000 miles to declare itself. If one has to have add things to gasoline, there are things that don't have sulfur or phosphorus.

Per the administrator over at MarvelMysteryOil.com the sulfer content is 1.6ppm. Gasoline in California is 30ppm sulfur; in the rest of the country it may be as high as 300ppm. MMO suggests not using their products in diesel engines build after 2007 - which engines are designed to use super-low sulfur (15ppm) fuel. The concern is that it might affect the vehicle's warranty - nothing else.

The phosphorous is Tricresyl Phosphate, an organophosphate - a very good AW/EP additive, which is also in most motor oils. The TCP content is slightly higher than most motor oils, but given the low MMO fuel additive rate, it's unclear why this would have an adverse effect (or any effect) on the cat.

If using MMO takes 100,000 miles to 'declare itself', you've probably gotten your money's worth out of your catalytic converter. Failures at that mileage are common, out of warranty and have nothing to do with using MMO or not.

'Failure' is a slippery term - it many cases all that has happened is that the vehicle throws a P0420 CEL code. Several things can cause this, including oxygen sensor issues. But, dealers love to replace parts. Replacing a catalytic converter, whether it needs it or not, probably wins them a prize! To the extent it really is the catalytic converter issue, you might Google 'citrus clean catalytic converter'.
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#3397510 - 06/14/14 04:24 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Triton_330 Offline


Registered: 12/24/13
Posts: 294
Loc: Illinois, USA
Albeit I'm joining in on this discussion a bit late in the game... BUT... here's my 2 or 3 cents anyways.

One thing that hasn't yet been stated, and that IMO is important is... where you get your gas from! I live in a town where the only two gas stations are Casey's gas. The good old boys down at Oreilly's (in a town 12 miles away), as well as the guys at Autozone (in another town 14 miles away) will both tell any customer how BAD Casey's gas is. It's absolutely one of the worst gasses of the quote unquote bad gas stations. One guy at Oreilly's told me he ran Casey's gas once in his mustang (where normally he uses BP) and that just that one fill up alone made his car feel sluggish and ran badly. A later fill up at BP solved the problem. SO, what's my point? Do I think MMO is good? Simply put, MMO, or even other additives like STP gas additive, or those other better ones like Techron, all will help the fuel quality of bad gas, no doubt about it. How do I know. Well, some nay-sayers may not think a simple anecdotal piece of evidence stands to represent any meaning at all, but I ignore them. My F-150 runs smoother with BP, and I try to get it when I'm out of town, but when I have to fill up in town with Casey's, you'd better believe I'm going to throw in some kind of fuel additive, regardless of brand. With that being said, some of my favorites are Techron, STP, Gumout, MMO, and Regane. *Cough* but definitely not Lucas! Call whatever fallacy as you might, but I know from firsthand experience that MMO DOES help with bad quality gas.

The uncertainty of whether my cat will become clogged up by using MMO mixed with bad gas... Heck, I just don't care. All I care is that my butt dyno tells me that running MMO with Casey's gas does help. Nonetheless, straight up BP gas (without any additive) still makes my truck run better than Casey's gas with MMO (or anything else). But, in a small country town with only Casey's, it's difficult getting better gas unless I'm out of town.
_________________________
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#3398398 - 06/15/14 07:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
morris Offline


Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 3681
Loc: ks, wichita
"compression fitting" NOT on my TWK. i have been using MMO for 30 years but Don cant tell when ill have my first fail!!!!

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#3435519 - 07/25/14 04:44 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
webfors Online   content


Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 3642
Loc: Ottawa
MMO and Stabil in all my gas storage and small engines has resulted in gas that can go a year and start on the first or second pull. I never drain the gas for long term storage, do not fog the cylinders, and keep the carb bowl full. I can go outside right now and start my snowblower with one pull. Want a video? lol

What does that mean? No hassles.

Friends that don't have a similar regiment are calling their small engine mechanic almost yearly to get them running again. That's a massive hassle in my opinion.
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#3435669 - 07/25/14 07:17 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9620
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Per the administrator over at MarvelMysteryOil.com the sulfer content is 1.6ppm. Gasoline in California is 30ppm sulfur; in the rest of the country it may be as high as 300ppm.

If the numbers are correct i cant see how this can cause a sulfur issue.
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#3435759 - 07/25/14 08:27 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Trav]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Per the administrator over at MarvelMysteryOil.com the sulfer content is 1.6ppm. Gasoline in California is 30ppm sulfur; in the rest of the country it may be as high as 300ppm.

If the numbers are correct i cant see how this can cause a sulfur issue.

There is no sulfur issue with MMO, except in the particular case of the low-sulfur diesels mentioned above.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3457292 - 08/16/14 02:31 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Greasymechtech Offline


Registered: 07/11/14
Posts: 288
Loc: Paradise of Florida
http://ampcolubes.com/home/benefits

We should start collection and send a gallon of mmo and an inverse oiler to scottynilmer.
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#3457322 - 08/16/14 03:02 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Volvohead Offline


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 3520
Loc: SE Pa
I don't know about today's engines with cats, but we used a lot of this stuff in engines calling for lead (mainly pre-'71) once the leaded fuels went away. And it worked in keeping the valve seats from wearing on unleaded. This was in carbureted delivery systems.

As far as the other posters claiming an effective octane loss, you've got to be kidding. Eight to sixteen ounces in 20 to 24 gallons of gasoline isn't going to reduce the octane in a meaningful measure. We had other ways to compensate for the octane loss in those fuels anyway. But that was enough to keep the older valve seats happy.

But in a modern FI engine with a cat? I'm skeptical of the benefits. I also think there are better additives for a crankcase these days.

As far as this Kilmer guy, never saw him. Sounds like a pitchman to me.

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#3459217 - 08/19/14 01:31 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
babbittd Offline


Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 148
Loc: Peabody, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Consumers Union (the Consumer Reports folks) occupy a very unique position - they test brand names, generally without the manufacturer's permission. And, even they get sued. But they are so wrapped in 'public purpose' they are almost an arm of the government. Sadly, they haven't done a review of oils or additives that i have found


Surely you have seen this?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/259274/Consumer_Reports_1996_NYC_Taxi

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#3459308 - 08/19/14 08:02 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: babbittd]
dave5358 Online   content


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 619
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: babbittd
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Consumers Union (the Consumer Reports folks) occupy a very unique position - they test brand names, generally without the manufacturer's permission. And, even they get sued. But they are so wrapped in 'public purpose' they are almost an arm of the government. Sadly, they haven't done a review of oils or additives that i have found

Surely you have seen this?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/259274/Consumer_Reports_1996_NYC_Taxi

The Consumer Reports link in that thread doesn't work. The study in question can be found at this link.

It's an interesting study of popular motor oils - good reading. They only tested three additives (Slick-50, STP Engine Treatment and STP Oil Treatment) and found no benefit from any of them.
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2008 Corolla LE

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#3461239 - 08/21/14 12:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
jrustles Offline


Registered: 02/24/13
Posts: 1979
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Killmer might have an inadvertent point.
I personally stay away from all Chlorocarbon products.

That includes Splenda, chlorinated brake parts cleaner and I guess now MMO (though there are other reasons it's not on my radar). shrug
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#3466005 - 08/27/14 04:21 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
pzev Offline


Registered: 11/30/05
Posts: 601
Loc: arctic
I gave up reading this after page 4, but here are my two cents.

I had a Scion FR-S. They are notorious for cricket chirping noises from the direct injectors. I used MMO with every fill up, approximately 4 ounces. I significantly reduced the chirping from the injectors. If I went a couple tanks without it, the noise came back.

MMO at this point in the game serves mainly as a UCL. It might have some minor cleaning ability, but I used it in the FR-S to lubricate the fuel system, which in that instance with that vehicle, provided a quantifiable benefit.


Now, in my Mustang, I have so far observed no tangible benefit to adding MMO during fill ups. Actually, the only thing I have noticed is that my fuel economy has dropped...but I don't have a substantial long term trend to really tell for sure.

On an aside, I used an MMO and Techron combination after I first got the car. Boy did the car not like that lol. Stumbling, hesitation, and misfires. Went to the dealer, who identified a TSB for a known issue. What was interesting however is that while I could get the car to present the issue without any fuel additives in the tank, as soon as I added them the misfires became immediately apparent in all driving conditions. This tells me that the fuel system on my Coyote may not be too keen on adulterated fuel.
After they performed the fix (new crank position sensor with O-ring), I no longer have any misfires, even with fuel system cleaners.

So once my MMO bottle is empty, I won't be buying anymore. Instead I'll just do a bottle of a PEA laced cleaner before every oil change.


As a funny side story, anyone who is familiar with the new capless filler necks on most Fords can relate to this.

I took a bottle of Techron and attempted to pour the contents into my Mustangs filler neck, only to watch a river of injector cleaner come pouring out behind the fender onto the ground.
Ford includes a small plastic funnel device for opening the filler neck. Without it, there is a valve that stays closed preventing the insertion of bottles all the way into the filler neck.
Gas pump handles are sized appropriately to actuate this valve on their own.

Prior to this I had been wondering what that white plastic device was for...

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#3485564 - Yesterday at 06:27 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
gathermewool Offline


Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 3508
Loc: CT
How does MMO or any other fuel cleaner or stabilizer help with bad gas?
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