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#3390423 - 06/06/14 07:25 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8446
Loc: NorthEast
I put about $16K miles on my 2012 Acura strictly for highway commuting of 30 miles each way. In two years, the car has not been on any other trip at all! When driving Acura, I drive like a grandma to maximize my fuel economy. I take it as a challenge to see what is the best mileage that I can get. The car computer is always displaying both tank and instant fuel economy. My life time average in this car is close to 31 mpg which is pretty impressive when you consider I am driving 270 hp automatic transmission equipped "bucktooth whale with an enormous butt"! I refuel at only two of the gas stations, either near my house (shell premium) or near my work (mobil premium).

EVEN WITH SUCH CONSISTENT OPERATING ENVIRONMENT, MY TANK TO TANK AND INSTANTANEOUS MILEAGE VARIES EXCESS OF 10%

So anybody who tells you that his mileage increased by 1% by doing *SOMETHING* does not understand the physics or statistics or how to measure things.

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#3390582 - 06/06/14 10:53 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
dave1251 Offline


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 7400
Loc: Maricopa, AZ
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: dave1251, in response to a post by dave5358
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson.

But in this thread [at message 3389959] you said:

"And Lubegard can research, test, formulate, market, distribute, finance, and produce a product that dramatically improves lubrication and sell said product at a very low cost to the consumer while remaining profitable."

Wow! That's impressive. Is that what a Lubegard spokesperson does?


I have no clue what a Lubegard spokesperson does. I should of made it clear my sarcasm power pack was set to full.
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#3390748 - 06/06/14 02:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8446
Loc: NorthEast
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?

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#3390754 - 06/06/14 02:31 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7879
Loc: Saskatoon canada
Originally Posted By: Vikas
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?



Just fight with all the Dave's then you got all bases covered.
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#3390918 - 06/06/14 05:31 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Clevy]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Vikas
We have too many Dave with similar name and numbers! how am I going to keep track of all my BITOG enemies?

Just fight with all the Dave's then you got all bases covered.

Fueding among product spokespersons aside, surely someone has a thought on measuring methodology for effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a fuel additive. Are we bested by an 11th grader?
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#3391495 - 06/07/14 02:24 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
MileHigh18 Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 180
Loc: TN
To throw my hat in the ring, I started using MMO myself. I only use 87 unleaded with no ethanol in my vehicle. I've now run 2 tanks with MMO added at the proper ratio, and my vehicle honestly feels a little sluggish. Gonna fill up later today at the same place I always do sans MMO and see how it feels.
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#3391617 - 06/07/14 05:48 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8446
Loc: NorthEast
If you overdose on MMO, this is exactly how it feels. Next time you feel like trying MKMO again, cut down on the ratio.

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#3391639 - 06/07/14 06:23 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
If you overdose on MMO, this is exactly how it feels. Next time you feel like trying MMO again, cut down on the ratio.

He said he put it in at the right ratio - not exactly sure what he was using. The website says 4oz MMO per 10 gallons of fuel. Maybe he had a mixing problem or it all went to the bottom of the tank.

In oiler land, 1 quart per 1000 miles is what I try to achieve. For many vehicles, that works out to about ~1/3 quart per fill-up. Or, if you use (or re-bottle into) pint bottles, about 2/3 pint per fill-up.he ratio. [/quote]
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#3391702 - 06/07/14 07:33 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2851
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Fueding among product spokespersons aside, surely someone has a thought on measuring methodology for effectiveness (or lack thereof) of a fuel additive. Are we bested by an 11th grader?


You aren't going to like my suggestion, but you would never test a fuel additive's performance in the wild (but you might test other things about, it like corrosion). Just as you would never test a new type of spark plug, or a different type of fuel, or a new piston design, or anything when you are looking for the effect of one parameter.

Back when I was in school the way you tested stuff like this was with a one-cylinder test engine. You used the same fuel for all your tests and gathered your results. It was all corrected for any temperature and pressure variances. In this way, you can measure small changes and most importantly you can attribute changes to the parameter under test. Out in the real world, there are just too many things that cannot be controlled and this will more than likely prevent you from attributing any measured effect to any specific parameter.

The only time you do real-world fuel economy testing is when that is the thing you are testing. For example, somebody may wish to compare the EPA fuel economy tests to real-world driving. In this case what you are testing is real world driving. I found that article I referenced earlier:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1401_real_numbers_mpg_101/

This article touches on the challenges of this test, and is where I got the 4% variance number for fuel. It was worse than I remembered though, they are claiming the difference from fuel from the same station (I thought it was from different stations). But note this test is to test real-world fuel economy, not to test some small change in some parameter for the engine.

I really think you would need a test engine in a laboratory for any decent measurements. It bugs me that an additive manufacturer would not publish any such results. Surely the have tested it like this; it isn't an expensive test. In my experience one is generally secretive about test results when they do not prove something you are trying to show.
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#3391832 - 06/07/14 10:58 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>I really think you would need a test engine in a laboratory for any decent measurements. It bugs me that an additive manufacturer would not publish any such results. Surely the have tested it like this; it isn't an expensive test. In my experience one is generally secretive about test results when they do not prove something you are trying to show.

I'm working on some other parts of your comments. But, as to manufacturers not releasing results the reasons are both legal and social. If/when a company gets sued (e.g. MMO for screwing up someone's catalytic converter or STP for false advertising) lawyers typically try to use the company's own research against them (Look at this 1 test out of 58 that you performed and the catalytic converter melted!). But, they have to get this research, and most judges won't allow it to be discovered, as against social policy. But, if a company publishes the research (rather than just a summary), all bets are off. You and I both know that research frequently has some aberrant results (the mice all died on test #214. But they lived just fine, got smarter, even got into Harvard, in 499 other tests). I don't necessarily believe companies have something to hide. Maybe, maybe not. But they still keep their cards very close to the vest.

As for an independent researcher reviewing a proprietary product, forget it. Even if the results were positive, the researcher is likely to get a 'cease and desist' letter from the company's lawyer (Dear Sir: You may not use our name or our products name in anything you are doing, for now until eternity!) Game over. I'm surprised the Lucas folks didn't send a lawyer letter to that kid in South Carolina.

Consumers Union (the Consumer Reports folks) occupy a very unique position - they test brand names, generally without the manufacturer's permission. And, even they get sued. But they are so wrapped in 'public purpose' they are almost an arm of the government. Sadly, they haven't done a review of oils or additives that i have found.

From a business perspective, it makes more sense (and more profits) to market your product based on endorsements, anecdotes, glowing summaries, etc. Think Richard Petty and STP - a marriage made in heaven.

Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G

Or Billy-Bob Cooter driving the Atomic Oil Special to victory in the Toilet Bowl 500. Who cares that the Atomic Oil Special was designed in France, assembled in Germany by master mechanics, monitored during the race by computers and will be torn down completely and rebuilt after each race... and may not even use Atomic Oil (well, a few drops for good measure). Both Billy-Bob and the car have Atomic Oil emblazoned all over everywhere. And just to make sure you don't look away, Miss Atomic Oil, whose wardrobe consists of only skimpy bikinis (also emblazoned with Atomic Oil's logo), is always available for photo-ops. Oh, look, there she is pouring a few drops of Atomic Oil into the Atomic Oil Special. S-H-0-W B-I-Z
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#3392290 - 06/08/14 03:36 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
MileHigh18 Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 180
Loc: TN
My tank holds 18.7 gallons so I added about 6 ounces to my tank. Maybe a hair over that so if anything I may have added less than what I should have.


Edited by MileHigh18 (06/08/14 03:37 PM)
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#3392316 - 06/08/14 04:02 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8446
Loc: NorthEast
Quote:
Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G
I am not sure if you are getting the point that some of us are making. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to measure the 1.3% increase without laboratory conditions. If the deviation between two readings is of the order of 1-2%, then you just can NOT prove 1.3% gains by scientific methods.

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#3392324 - 06/08/14 04:28 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3415
Loc: SE PA
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Lack of harm does not mean proof of benefit.

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#3392330 - 06/08/14 04:34 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 669
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
Which is a better sell: a bonafide 1.3% increase in HP from using an oil or type of gas or additive? Oh, and this is based on careful and painstaking research. B-O-R-I-N-G

I am not sure if you are getting the point that some of us are making. It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to measure the 1.3% increase without laboratory conditions.

My response was only to part of kschachn's message. I do get your point. And, you are right - small gains can be very hard to measure or verify.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
If the deviation between two readings is of the order of 1-2%, then you just can NOT prove 1.3% gains by scientific methods.

You can if you have enough data points. More to the point on this discussion, you can prove that an engine runs better or more efficiently or differently with and without the additive. You may not be able to quantify that it is 1.3% better, but definitely better or worse.
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#3392947 - 06/09/14 11:07 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Mephy Offline


Registered: 04/01/08
Posts: 282
Loc: Toronto
I use it in the fuel sometimes.

The ratio is very lean 1:800.

I think the main beneficial effect is that better the atomization of fuel.

I do not believe higher dosage will do better.

I see It just as fuel conditioner.
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