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#3389539 - 06/05/14 09:12 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3311
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Well, call it hostility all you like, take it personal, make jokes about the F.I.A. (whatever that is), say we don't have input because we haven't used the product, or say whatever you want to say - but it isn't personal. If someone wants to test something it needs to be a valid test.

The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal. But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it". Rather, devise and run a better test that aims to eliminate variables as much as possible. That's the only way any kind of credible evidence is going to be obtained.
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#3389552 - 06/05/14 09:26 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
<snip>The only thing worse than what you suggested would be to take two random drives and compare those. Actually that would be marginally better since it is possible that two random drives would be identical. In your scenario, the only thing you assure is that the two trips are not identical.

According to you "no two days are exactly alike." That's true enough. Since, two trips will never be identical in all aspects, I guess no test would ever be possible. Problem solved.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
No matter what you do, since it is basically an uncontrolled test the results will always be anecdotal.

I thought I was the one who said the results would be anecdotal. There really are no controlled tests of proprietary additive products. Almost all evaluations of proprietary additive products boil down to anecdotes. So what?

Originally Posted By: kschachn
But don't you see that the results of the test you propose would have no meaning whatsoever? Those are two completely different routes.

I drive from Ohio to DC. I drive from DC back to Ohio. Are those routes completely different?

Originally Posted By: kschachn
This is the whole thing with the additive crowd. And once again, it's not about the additive! It's about the analysis of its effectiveness. The results you are going to see, or not see, aren't that big and will be easy to lose in the noise.

Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Stop taking it personal and retreating behind the straw man wall of "you haven't used it".

'Actual experience' is hardly a straw man. If you have actual experience with a product, I'm sure everyone would like to hear about it. If you have special training or expertise that bears on the question, please share that too. If you are trying to learn about a product, welcome aboard! Isn't that what this forum is for?

Finally, there are BITOG trolls who, by virtue of their superior intellect or cosmic vision or whatever, can magically divine that a product is good or bad - no actual experience is required. Or they can discern that a methodology is sound or flawed... or that some anecdotes are acceptable (usually for products they like) while other anecdotes just don't cut it.

Unless you have some special expertise in the area or you have used a product, thinking readers might conclude that your opinion doesn't even rise to the level of an anecdote. Please don't take that personally, but it's rather difficult to escape that conclusion.
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#3389617 - 06/05/14 10:51 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave5358]
BearZDefect Offline


Registered: 08/15/05
Posts: 1889
Loc: Lexington, KY
Originally Posted By: dave5358
I drive from Ohio to DC. I drive from DC back to Ohio. Are those routes completely different?

Yes, they are different.
First there are altitude changes. Then there are variables that we can't control, like wind direction, ambient temperature, rain, etc. All of these affect fuel consumption.

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#3389656 - 06/05/14 11:22 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 2460
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.


You didn't really mean to type "so what", did you?

Do I have special expertise? Yes I do. I was a senior research technologist for a large company for many years. What a research technologist does is to design and implement investigative tests at the direction of a research scientist. The scientist wants to know something so he directs the technologist to come up with a testing program that isolates and investigates the properties in question. I then wrote either a research brief or research report that was presented and critiqued by the entire research staff at my company. I have also written and had published papers on some of the work I did. My education is a BSME with a minor in chemistry, not that it matters.

Real-world MPG testing is notoriously difficult. And since the result one is looking at for these additives is very small, that makes it all the more difficult. Previously someone posted an approximately 1% mileage increase due to another additive. Do you know how difficult it would be to accurately measure a 1% process difference outside of a laboratory? And even if you could, then you have to correlate the change to the additive.

There was a pretty good article a while back by a car magazine that wanted to do some real-world testing of MPG. In just one example they learned that the “same” fuel purchased at different gas stations can result in a 4% mileage differential, so what you have to do is purchase special uniform testing fuel if you want anything accurate. And this is just fuel. Pile on top of that everything else that is a variable and it becomes almost impossible to measure - and attribute - small MPG changes unless extraordinary measures are taken.

I don’t know what else to tell you.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 188K
1996 Honda Accord, 201K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 302K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 223K

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#3389698 - 06/05/14 11:59 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Vikas Offline


Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 8016
Loc: NorthEast
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

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#3389703 - 06/05/14 12:02 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 6187
Loc: Texas
OK, all anecdotes aside:

Can anyone tell me an accepted engineering or chemical MECHANISM by which MMO added to fuel could even theoretically increase fuel economy in a modern engine with computer controls?

I've already provided such a mechanism by which it could theoretically reduce fuel economy (timing retard due to lowered effective octane). I've pointed out the lengths we got to in order to prevent similar percentage contamination by engine oil. Dismiss ALL of that if you will and we'll call it a draw. But I'd like to know just how anyone thinks it works to increase fuel economy.

And I'll repeat for the third time: I've used MMO for many purposes and I like it particularly for long-term storage of engines- just not as a routine fuel additive.
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#3389715 - 06/05/14 12:11 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
FetchFar Offline


Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 831
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
If you use it in the oil- no problem. If you put it in fuel, it does a number of questionable things, such as put a heavier unburned HC load on the catalyst, CAUSE carbon build-up on exhaust valves, lower effective octane, etc. AFAIK, it doesn't have anything that will outright poison a catalyst (tetraethyllead, methyl manganese tricarbonyl, other metallic compounds), but the added HC load doesn't help it.


I was going to disagree and say MMO (if its really just kerosene with red dye) raises octane. I was confusing lower-octane with higher-volatility, not combustibility under pressure. My bad. Yeah, it does lower octane. .... Actually, if you mixed a little MMO with alcohol, you could raise octane and cleaning power at the same time.... hmmmm


Edited by FetchFar (06/05/14 12:24 PM)
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#3389815 - 06/05/14 02:17 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
Trajan Offline


Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 3311
Loc: SE PA
Originally Posted By: Vikas
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.


But you know how the anecdote crowd frowns and poopoos on data. They much prefer you accept claims on their face.
_________________________

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#3390002 - 06/05/14 05:36 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: kschachn]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Name calling aside, it is possible that the results will be lost in the noise. So what? I suggested a simple and inexpensive way for an interested person to be introduced to MMO. The responses were "That is terrible advice" and "this test would prove nothing" and "no meaning whatsoever" and on an on. Wow, I really did hit a religious nerve.

You didn't really mean to type "so what", did you?

I meant exactly what I said. I suggested a starting point. If the results are imperfect, you are welcome to suggest a better method.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Do I have special expertise? Yes I do. I was a senior research technologist for a large company for many years. What a research technologist does is to design and implement investigative tests at the direction of a research scientist. The scientist wants to know something so he directs the technologist to come up with a testing program that isolates and investigates the properties in question. I then wrote either a research brief or research report that was presented and critiqued by the entire research staff at my company. I have also written and had published papers on some of the work I did. My education is a BSME with a minor in chemistry, not that it matters.

Real-world MPG testing is notoriously difficult. And since the result one is looking at for these additives is very small, that makes it all the more difficult. Previously someone posted an approximately 1% mileage increase due to another additive. Do you know how difficult it would be to accurately measure a 1% process difference outside of a laboratory? And even if you could, then you have to correlate the change to the additive.<snip>

I don’t know what else to tell you.

Tell me a solution.

You seem to understand the problems of real-world testing, but I have yet to hear a positive suggestion from you. Of course road and climate and a zillion other things may intervene. We live in an imperfect world. What else is new? Does that mean there is no way to get a handle on this problem?

The question is: does MMO (or TCW3 or any similar product) added to the fuel or intake system have any effect on a gasoline engine? MPG changes would be nice, but let's not be picky.

One approach would be to run the engine on a measured amount of fuel, and then again on a measured amount of fuel plus additive. Does the engine run longer? This exact test was done by an 11th grader in South Caroline in a test on fuel efficiency. The young man used Lucas UCL and a Homelite leaf blower in an amazingly simple test. While I see some issues with what he did (and I'm no Lucas fan) it was pretty clear the the Lucas product did something - changed the performance of the Homelite engine in a positive manner.

Or how about testing cylinder pressures with and without MMO being added? I witnessed this test [see message 3204737] done by a clever auto-shop teacher with my own vehicle used as the test bed. You could turn the oiler on and pressures would go up. Turn it off and they would go down. Turn it on and they went up again. There was nothing unique about my engine, save for the fact that it was very accessible.

If a clever South Carolina high school student and a Virginia high school shop teacher, in a completely unscripted demonstration, can test this phenomenon using a few simple tools and a simple approach, perhaps you can suggest a better testing solution. And, if it's not perfect, so what? I will applaud your effort, rather than attack the flaws.

But, please don't tell me that all you can do is come up with reasons as to why this can't be done or can't be tested.
_________________________
2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3390021 - 06/05/14 05:53 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
All of you guys need to take remedial statistical course to understand data.

Only way to "prove" anything is with double blind testing and with understanding confidence intervals and standard deviation blah blah.

In layman term, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other.

It might be nice, but you really don't need double-blind testing for something like this. But, you do need a lot of data points and then see if one set is different than the other. There can be a fair amount of slop in the numbers and the result should still be valid - thanks to the wonder of statistics.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

Exactly right. But understand that in the 'additives' arena, anecdotes are about all you will find. The product manufacturers, who really know, won't tell - much better to rely on summaries and anecdotes and endorsements. Richard Petty and STP are the living embodiment of this concept.

Universities, test labs, people who might do independent testing won't test proprietary products unless it's sponsored by the manufacturer - too many legal issues.

So if you don't like anecdotes, you're probably going to go hungry.
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2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3390027 - 06/05/14 06:07 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: 440Magnum]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Can anyone tell me an accepted engineering or chemical MECHANISM by which MMO added to fuel could even theoretically increase fuel economy in a modern engine with computer controls?

Increased cylinder pressures. See my post a couple of message above. In that aspect, older engines are no different than their modern computer-laden cousins.

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've already provided such a mechanism by which it could theoretically reduce fuel economy (timing retard due to lowered effective octane).

Several responders pointed out that, in the percentages of MMO in fuel for automotive use, octane change was not an issue. The numbers suggest that it is not an issue.

Strangely enough the Air Force may have used MMO to reduce octane ratings for fuel in light observation aircraft. I'm no aviation expert but I think the matter went something like this: many small planes were originally designed for 80 octane leaded avgas. But, that product was discontinued - no longer available. The fix was to use 100 octane avgas with MMO as a buffer. Aviation octane ratings may be a bit different than ratings for automobile gasoline: 100 octane leaded avgas may be the equivalent of 125 octane motor fuel.

We need an aviation person to jump in and correct whatever I've got wrong on this.
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2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3390053 - 06/05/14 06:51 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
Clevy Offline


Registered: 11/11/10
Posts: 7070
Loc: Saskatoon canada
I can certainly understand how an inverse oiler,or mmo mixed with fuel could increase compression and honestly it makes sense that it would.
I can tell you that on my 06 charger I can tell when the inverse oiler is empty by how the car behaves with light throttle inputs.
Wide open I can't tell any difference but I certainly can tell when its empty.
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2006 Charger RT
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#3390101 - 06/05/14 07:58 PM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: MileHigh18]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 20937
Loc: NY
Yawn........Here we go again. Sorry I couldn't resist. Lets face facts if there was credible data out there supporting the product didn't work as many claim, they'd be posting it. So we go full circle again. The data the data lovers crave, for or against these products is hard to come by. So if you don't believe in anecdotal evidence stand clear. People who believe all the positive testimony, give it a shot and report back. Pretty simple actually.
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#3390365 - 06/06/14 06:09 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: dave1251]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: dave1251, in response to a post by dave5358
Well you can come clean as a MMO spokesperson.

But in this thread [at message 3389959] you said:

"And Lubegard can research, test, formulate, market, distribute, finance, and produce a product that dramatically improves lubrication and sell said product at a very low cost to the consumer while remaining profitable."

Wow! That's impressive. Is that what a Lubegard spokesperson does?
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2006 Forester XT
2008 Corolla LE

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#3390401 - 06/06/14 06:56 AM Re: Scotty Kilmer: Don't use MMO! [Re: Vikas]
dave5358 Offline


Registered: 04/25/13
Posts: 612
Loc: North Bend
Originally Posted By: Vikas
In layman terms, you gather lots of data points; half with MMO; half without MMO; plot them and then see if one set is demonstrably higher than the other. Your single anecdotal story is just that. It is useful but it is not data.

Okay, here's the 6/6/2014 edition of the poor man's multiple-data-point solution to test... almost anything:

Equipment: To make this work, your car needs a 'computer' which shows instant or snapshot MPG readings. The computer could be built in (many late model vehicles have them) or add-on like the Auterra Dash Dyno or Scangauge or Ultragauge. The only computer requirement is that it provide instant fuel economy readings - not average or trip MPG. FWIW, the Ultragauge is relatively cheaper than the pack - maybe $80-90 including a mount. Has anybody used one of them?

You also need a clipboard, kitchen timer and some colored ink pens.

Method: While on a trip, every ten minutes, record the instant mpg reading from the computer. Exclude any readings if your vehicle speed is above 75mph or below 55mph [adjust these limits to your situation - you want to exclude less-than-top-gear situations as well as 'passing' situations]. When the timer sounds, you record the mpg on the clipboard and re-start the timer. You could also adjust the time interval to 5 minutes or 8 minutes or something else - you would just have more or fewer data points.

Refueling: If you are testing the utility of MMO or similar fuel additive, you could drive for at least 15 miles after the fuel light came on before refueling. Again, adjust this for your vehicle's quirks. If driving with the fuel light 'on' seems risky, you could carry a spare gallon of fuel in a can. Use the different colored pens to record data points from fuel fill-ups with additive versus those without.

When you get home, simply plot the points. For the additive to be successful, there should be different clusters between the 'with' and 'without' data sets.

Miscellaneous: In addition to fuel additives, you could also test different tire pressures, maybe even oil additives (if you were careful about refueling with the same brand and grade of fuel).
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