Ford EcoBoost Challenge 2014

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I think his point is, the cats would melt if asked to light off tons of fuel. If you combust fuel one of the side effects is heat (well, it's not a side effect in the cylinder, that expansion is what is harnessed; but in the cat heat it's mostly a negative thing--the desirable thing is to get rid of any partially burnt HC's etc).

Wild guess here: I'd think an EB car would use fuel cooling, less so the truck. A truck might be counted on doing a few hours of heavy throttle, a car not so much. I wonder if the trucks have massive cats or not. They probably do, since they have to sized for the hp/airflow.
 
Originally Posted By: badtlc
.You should do more research. The way the combustion chamber is cooled is by running rich, not avoiding it. More fuel absorbs more heat before ignition.


I have, and we engineers know how to do research, trust me. Google direct injection charge cooling

One thing you'll see is: "Spark Ignited Direct Injection (SI DI) of fuel extends engine knock limits compared to Port Fuel Injection (PFI) by utilizing the large in-cylinder charge cooling effect due to fuel evaporation. " http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1284/
...note this allows you to avoid rich mixtures upstream, the cooling is done in the DI mist evap effects, and thats burned very close to stochiometric.
 
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Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: jrustles


They never thought of the high-compression, standard displacement,
atmospheric route. Well even if they did, they would have had to pioneer that development completely on their own, costing more money overall and with no time to do it. Ford et al are kind of stuck at this point.



They did do that. Ford developed a 2.0L DI non turbo motor along with their 1.XL engines.



They adapted existing engineering (that they didn't even fully engineer themselves). BY 'develop' I mean Ford's own unique engines developed all by themselves as part of a unique Ford strategy like the Ecoboost V6 and their V8s.

The EB 2.0L is nothing but a beefed up base model Mazda3/Focus engine, with the exact same changes made to it as were made to the 2.3L DISI vs the regular 2.3L-- EB 2.0L is really nothing but a de-stroked 2.3L DISI with Ford-chosen EMS, turbo and other small tweaks like another hydraulic phaser on the exhaust side (a provision that the MZR engine series had already designed into it).
Same goes for the 1.6L EB and 1.0L 3 cylinder-- those engines already existed, the 1.0L sitting in-house waiting for an app, and were adapted to EB duty. A smart strategy for Ford from an economical perspective, just like Hyundai/Kia and their Theta II G4KA/G4KD engines based on Mitsubishi engineering. Hyundai Kia couldn't even be original enough to stray from the Mitsubishi coding convention. Come on, G4KD vs 4G63? lol

Same goes the Germans! If no one else had done a GDI turbo and impressed them, they probably would have a different strategy today. MB in particular now seems to need to prove that they can make the most power-dense 4cyl production engine-- totally ignoring the fact that no one buys a Mercedes (or a BMW) to get a FOUR CYLINDER ENGINE.



As for chamber cooling, DI works by exploiting the 'latent heat of evaporation'. By pressurizing the fuel to hundreds of bar, when it is sprayed, it expands and cools the greater space that it now takes up, somewhat like a refrigerant expansion valve. The cooling is directly proportional to the pressure it is sprayed at, therefore it's cooling effect has a hard limit.

Some traditional cats can't manage richer than stoich mixtures, but I strongly suspect DI unit use different cat technology like single nano-deposited precious metals. Widebands confirm that turbo DI runs rich, the soot seen around tailpipes is an artifact of not only rich, but incomplete combustion- and new car cats are really efficient and mask smoke output. If the cats see outrageously rich condition under load alone, then I suspect the cats can manage the additional oxidation load during high flow conditions, where the mixture's time in contact with the substrate is limited, unlike a car that runs rich all the time and can melt it's cat even with light driving.

Three major factors that will make the best of turbo-DI tech
-better fuel quality
-even more advanced management techniques
-bumping up engine displacement
oh and one more thing
-steep learning curve of turbo DI engine operation, something which IMO logic controls should compensate for to maintain consistent performance
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And of course ALL supercharged vehicles (mechanical or exhaust driven) use fuel enrichment to cool themselves, if they don't they quickly go BOOM...
Remember that DI, injecting early in the intake stroke with atomization misting, is supposed to cool the turbo engine when necessary, avoiding too-rich mixtures in the first place here. (We are talking about Ecoboost here.)

There may be some slight lambda < 1 happening, but catalyic convertors can't handle everything.


Actual dyno numbers from the tailpipe confirm my statements. ALL force fed engines (and many N/A ones) use fuel to cool themselves, whether port or direct injected.

DI has many issues, one is cylinder filling at part throttle, another is deposit buildup. It's extremely high pressures make diesel engine noises in some cars.

Ecoboost is not magic. It is a well designed turbocharged engine that makes great power. BUT if you USE that power the fuel economy goes in the toilet. You can't escape the basic physics, and a forced induction setup has a larger spread between low and high power production and thus mileage...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
And of course ALL supercharged vehicles (mechanical or exhaust driven) use fuel enrichment to cool themselves, if they don't they quickly go BOOM...
Remember that DI, injecting early in the intake stroke with atomization misting, is supposed to cool the turbo engine when necessary, avoiding too-rich mixtures in the first place here. (We are talking about Ecoboost here.)

There may be some slight lambda < 1 happening, but catalyic convertors can't handle everything.


...ALL force fed engines (and many N/A ones) use fuel to cool themselves, whether port or direct injected.

DI has many issues, one is cylinder filling at part throttle, another is deposit buildup. It's extremely high pressures make diesel engine noises in some cars.


On your "ALL" statement in bold print above, remember the DI method of fuel-cooling doesn't need to be rich to cool (anti-knock), while the port-injected method does need to be rich, big difference and the main point made in this thread.
 
Well, let's put this in perspective, the latent heat of evaporation and enriched mixtures are both used to cool chamber temps

DI inherently achieves a certain level of cooling over port injection, but that effect already gets exploited by way of higher static compression ratios used for the resulting increase in thermal efficiency. So with that alone, DI engines are already right back at the octane threshold of a standard port injected turbo engine.

Now the thing with DI in natural aspiration is that since it has a wider range to adapt by means of injection timing, ignition timing and dynamic CR (VVT), they can run 10:1+ on regular 87 all day. But just adding a turbo to the mix puts us back at square one for octane requirement. DI turbo engines can and do enrich and retard everything as compensation and the less than ideal combustion results in soot and reduced fuel economy.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
On your "ALL" statement in bold print above, remember the DI method of fuel-cooling doesn't need to be rich to cool (anti-knock), while the port-injected method does need to be rich, big difference and the main point made in this thread.



I repeat, all. Spend some time on the dyno with the tailpipe probe in place and you'll see.

It's so basic to engine longevity I am amazed at the naivete. DI still needs heavy fuel enrichment UNDER BOOST to keep EGT's low. Run one lean and keep it at full throttle and watch it explode.

Almost any modern car has a self protection program in it these days. Your "point" is simply misinformed, please do more research.


My family has owned 3 Eboosters already. All were smooth and very powerful 3.5 V6's. IMO they may prove to be a great engine design one day, but their mileage was always poor in our experience...
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
.
It's so basic to engine longevity I am amazed at the naivete. DI still needs heavy fuel enrichment UNDER BOOST to keep EGT's low. Run one lean and keep it at full throttle and watch it explode..


You're a little stuck in the past. These days we have DI with variable valve timing/lift to handle knock control much better. The old tech port fuel injection was upstream, less effective, so had to get a lambda < 1 air-fuel more. Remember emission control laws and catalytic convertors are a current thing. I'll bet you can become current.
 
From another recent thread:
Originally Posted By: jaxf250
.Yeah, doing a regular intake cleaning like I'm used to in the past (with SeaFoam or such) is apparently not a good idea on these Ecoboost engines. See this 2 part video set:

http://youtu.be/0irwbwpuEbQ

http://youtu.be/nK2eXdaydqI

Watching those vids from the Ford mechanic made me think that if I want to try and keep the car for a long time, I should think about keeping the intake valves clean. .


Looks like Ecoboost is doing just fine .... well, maybe not. Actually some of the PCV problems seen in the video might be helped by simply using a good synthetic oil, not conventional as Ford allows.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
.
It's so basic to engine longevity I am amazed at the naivete. DI still needs heavy fuel enrichment UNDER BOOST to keep EGT's low. Run one lean and keep it at full throttle and watch it explode..


You're a little stuck in the past. These days we have DI with variable valve timing/lift to handle knock control much better. The old tech port fuel injection was upstream, less effective, so had to get a lambda < 1 air-fuel more. Remember emission control laws and catalytic convertors are a current thing. I'll bet you can become current.


Completely ridiculous. Do you even know what a tailpipe probe is? It doesn't care what type of fuel delivery system you use, and it has no ridiculous preconceived notions about AFR either!

It's NOT enriched just to control knocking. You are so far off here it is becoming entertaining. Enjoy your misinformation, some day you'll be able to say that you understand the principles of forced induction no matter the fuel delivery system.

Google is your friend!
 
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8

Completely ridiculous. Do you even know what a tailpipe probe is? ....Google is your friend!


Try to stay calm. Take a breath. Think about refilling your prozac prescription.
 
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