Price points are made and met by lowering manufactureing costs and labor costs to be competitive and for hype advertising to gain market share, while reporting a better quarter than the last. Manufacturing decisions aren't made by the engineers, they are made by the suits and bean counters, eager to make the quarterly projection so they can get their bonus. This is common business practice. You imply that somehow filter manufacturers are above that sort of thing... well... I have some waterfront property in Florida I want to sell you (at low tide).
Fram filters really bad?
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Doublespeak again FG.
Along with the pics of doubleclutches filter I posted the miles which were accumulated with the filter. 4500. This is within the recommended OCI for Mazda. I am not one that "only" wants visual evidence. On the other hand, we dont need all the evidence to make conclusions as to what filters fail more often. You clearly do not understand statistics. You point to the fact that people have written to you stating that they have had "no problems" with their filters. Somebody (like you posted recently) who states they had no problem with their ecore and did not even cut up the filter is providing completely irrelevant, useless information in terms of determining a failure rate of oil filters. The consequences of a failed filter do not show up on a UOA.
You come back with these irrelevant questions;
-Did you change types of oil?!?!?
-Did you do a UOA to see if there was coolant in the oil?!?!?
Changing oil types is a typical event for a car owner. Coolant in your oil should not cause the filter to fail.
You have said it yourself. Filters do fail sometimes and Filter Companies pay claims for failed filters. So, we all agree that filters fail sometimes.
Frams, Champ Clicker and Ecore filters fail more often that other filters. The examples on this site have proven that.
I'm amazed anyone would want to use a fram or low end champion labs.firestone had an issue with tires blowing out a few years back.many people died.relative to the number of tires firestone had on the road the failure rate was small. I dont need a scientific study to confirm the obvious.if an oil filter fails you wont die ,but your engine is not designed to circulate chunks of debris courtesy of a poorly designed filter.
Interesting comment about the inverse correlation of marketing and quality.
Here is a comment from the Fram website . Look at the "about Fram" button.
This is the big "WE ARE GREAT!" page.
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The brand's strengths have long included sophisticated advertising and promotion, as well as sales and marketing efforts.
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Here is a comment from the Fram website . Look at the "about Fram" button.
This is the big "WE ARE GREAT!" page.
-------------------------------------------------
The brand's strengths have long included sophisticated advertising and promotion, as well as sales and marketing efforts.
-------------------------------------------------
It is just odd that some will defend failing oil filters.
While a person may have not had a filter fail on them,that they know of,it is evident that they are failing.
Many times,they are failing in normal OCI's.
What is also ironic is that the failure seems to always be the car owners fault.
If I buy a replacement part for my car,which an oil filter is,and that part is made to meet or exceed the manufacturers specs and will work for a certain time,I expect it to do so.
If it doesnt,it is to be returned for replacement.
An oil filter that states that it meets manufacturers specs but yet fails before the OCI is not what it should be,just as the failed part.
Many times the oil filter box plainly states that it meets the specs when changed according to the manufacturer.
When a filter fails at 3K during an OCI of 5K it isnt meeting the specs.
The problem with oil filters is that very few are going to cut one open.The filter makers know this.
If very few are going to cut a filter open,how will they know it has failed?
They wont.
Most likely,a filter failure isnt going to cause the engine to fail right then,it is more of a wear issue over time.
This too is known by the filter makers.
Since this is known by them,some make their filters cheap,if they do pay out for a failure,it is once in a while and they still make a huge profit.
While a person may have not had a filter fail on them,that they know of,it is evident that they are failing.
Many times,they are failing in normal OCI's.
What is also ironic is that the failure seems to always be the car owners fault.
If I buy a replacement part for my car,which an oil filter is,and that part is made to meet or exceed the manufacturers specs and will work for a certain time,I expect it to do so.
If it doesnt,it is to be returned for replacement.
An oil filter that states that it meets manufacturers specs but yet fails before the OCI is not what it should be,just as the failed part.
Many times the oil filter box plainly states that it meets the specs when changed according to the manufacturer.
When a filter fails at 3K during an OCI of 5K it isnt meeting the specs.
The problem with oil filters is that very few are going to cut one open.The filter makers know this.
If very few are going to cut a filter open,how will they know it has failed?
They wont.
Most likely,a filter failure isnt going to cause the engine to fail right then,it is more of a wear issue over time.
This too is known by the filter makers.
Since this is known by them,some make their filters cheap,if they do pay out for a failure,it is once in a while and they still make a huge profit.
It's the same logic with remanufactured water pumps (I bring this up because friends have been burned by this recently). The 'reman' pumps have a decent rate of failure - so your right back in the shop at $500 or whatever. If you paid more for the new OEM pump you would rarely see it.
The same with batteries. If you buy for a 5 year battery, that's close to what you'll get. The manufacturer has studied the quality of the product and predict how many will fail.
Having just bought a e-core (STP) and looking over the posts here - until proven otherwise, I think they belong in a dollar store.
The same with batteries. If you buy for a 5 year battery, that's close to what you'll get. The manufacturer has studied the quality of the product and predict how many will fail.
Having just bought a e-core (STP) and looking over the posts here - until proven otherwise, I think they belong in a dollar store.
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Well, I've never defended defective filters. I've been highly critical of what constitutes "proof". As far as ST's ..and aside from lubeower..I would not have to use more than a few fingers to count the member reported defects. This hardly consitutes a responsible method for forming opinion (it may suit you just fine) ..at least the last time I defined critical thinking. Otherwise our media is totally truthful and not social terra forming in giving you only the facts that form the opinion that they desire. The fact that there is no "desire" here doesn't alter the faulty opinion formation, IMHO.
Effectively you're really saying that it will never be proven. Which is again, fine ..but let's not kid ourselves here.
Beyond all that, use whatever makes you sleep better ..and by all means buy a filter cutter.
Well, here's the glitch in that. Since you already don't count anything other than failures (99% from one source in a unusual environment) ..just how can that ever be proven? That is, the few members that may use them ...and find no defects will only be counted "as the few that they got right".
Effectively you're really saying that it will never be proven. Which is again, fine ..but let's not kid ourselves here.
Beyond all that, use whatever makes you sleep better ..and by all means buy a filter cutter.
motorguy222:
"When a filter fails at 3K during an OCI of 5K it isnt meeting the specs."
I'll agree.
Now name which filters pictured in BITOG you are referring to?
People have gone off on 5K oil changes because a very limited amount of OEM's have them. Name me anyone who has posted in here that has found a "defective" filter that didn't last 5,000 miles.
Until then, people in here need to quit confusing two diferent issues.
1: The filters pictures with problems have , unless otherwise corrected, been used on engines that have 3K OCI and went a decent % longer.
2: There have been no filters pictured in here that only went 3,000 miles on engines with 5K OCI's. Again unless otherwise corrected. Tell me, who changed their oil at 3K on a 5K engine?
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Phoenix...your comments about advertising.
Fram is the #1 brand for advertising, so your comment that only the best reported filters are the ones with the best advertising.....
As for manufaturing costs...LOL....LOL...LOL
Pray tell, do you think Champ employees earn less now than they did 5 years ago? The same number of people on the production lines are required to build the same part number.
I can tell you, as can any filter salesman or filter company person who gets to see "costs" that filter costs go up every year.
You must be a dreamer to think that costs have gone down. You relate "selling" price as costs..they are not to the manufacturer. What stores do with their retail prices is their business.
But you are onto one thing..Champs lower costs are because of two factors.
One, they don't advertise. Therefore the consumer isn't paying for advertising and racing sponsorship in the cost of the product unless the brand they private label for does the advertising and racing sponsorship.
Two: They are non-union. And even though the Unions have tried at least 3 times in the last 20 years to organize a union in the plant the employees have voted it down everytime. And it's not even been close. Because Champ offers a better compensation package than some of the "union" plants around.
Oh..and if you were around today..it's open house at the Champ plants for anyone who wants to take a tour. You might learn something..
It's for families of employees and all those who retired to come back and have a look at what's new. And anyone else who knows about it.
Drawings for gifts..tv's..the usual prizes. Free food and drink, etc.
"When a filter fails at 3K during an OCI of 5K it isnt meeting the specs."
I'll agree.
Now name which filters pictured in BITOG you are referring to?
People have gone off on 5K oil changes because a very limited amount of OEM's have them. Name me anyone who has posted in here that has found a "defective" filter that didn't last 5,000 miles.
Until then, people in here need to quit confusing two diferent issues.
1: The filters pictures with problems have , unless otherwise corrected, been used on engines that have 3K OCI and went a decent % longer.
2: There have been no filters pictured in here that only went 3,000 miles on engines with 5K OCI's. Again unless otherwise corrected. Tell me, who changed their oil at 3K on a 5K engine?
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Phoenix...your comments about advertising.
Fram is the #1 brand for advertising, so your comment that only the best reported filters are the ones with the best advertising.....
As for manufaturing costs...LOL....LOL...LOL
Pray tell, do you think Champ employees earn less now than they did 5 years ago? The same number of people on the production lines are required to build the same part number.
I can tell you, as can any filter salesman or filter company person who gets to see "costs" that filter costs go up every year.
You must be a dreamer to think that costs have gone down. You relate "selling" price as costs..they are not to the manufacturer. What stores do with their retail prices is their business.
But you are onto one thing..Champs lower costs are because of two factors.
One, they don't advertise. Therefore the consumer isn't paying for advertising and racing sponsorship in the cost of the product unless the brand they private label for does the advertising and racing sponsorship.
Two: They are non-union. And even though the Unions have tried at least 3 times in the last 20 years to organize a union in the plant the employees have voted it down everytime. And it's not even been close. Because Champ offers a better compensation package than some of the "union" plants around.
Oh..and if you were around today..it's open house at the Champ plants for anyone who wants to take a tour. You might learn something..
It's for families of employees and all those who retired to come back and have a look at what's new. And anyone else who knows about it.
My issue with that is that MAAAAAAYBE one in a million of the filters are cut open. If EVERY filter were cut open how many whould there be?
So to question "how many have been reported" is just bogus distraction. Of course they aren't reported, they are sealed units, tossed in the trash when they are changed.
This does NOT take a genius to see, but "how many" still pops up with regularity as "proof" that filters aren't failing often.
Give me a break.
I never said that.quote:
Originally posted by Filter guy:
Phoenix...your comments about advertising.
Fram is the #1 brand for advertising, so your comment that only the best reported filters are the ones with the best advertising.....
Another fine example of twisting words.
Lubeowner has posted information that refuted your claims of over 3k OCI's, and others have posted extended OCI specs for their autos, besides, you went 9k on a filter, right? So extended OCI's aren't the culprit. Another diversion away from the fact that some filters are failing in normal everyday use.
Good points, John.
The ranges of the OCI's have already been posted of the filter failures.
As far as manufacturing,I too worked in manufacturing for several years.
While the cost to make a product may go up,it is usually only to a certain degree.
When this does happen,the manufacturer usually has the option of finding a supplier at a cheaper or same cost as their previous one.
If this is not possible,the company may go the route of more automation.While this may be more expensive at first,the cost is greatly reduced over the next few years by having less man power etc.
A job that may have taken 10 people may be done by machine and only take 2.
This is a big savings in just one area.
Lets go a little deeper,a job that took 25 people may be done by a machine with 4.
Look at the savings here.
Lets break this down a little more.
Fewer employess could mean:
1.less to pay in wages.
2.less to pay in workers comp.
3.less to pay for company insurance.
4.less to pay in employee health benefits.
5.less to pay in vacation time.
6.less to pay in un-employment insurance.
7.less to pay in company upkeep.
8.less to pay in company supplies that are used by employees.(restroom supplies etc.)
9.less time training,not as many openings with machines doing most of the work.
10.a more streamlined workforce means higher company profits.
As far as manufacturing,I too worked in manufacturing for several years.
While the cost to make a product may go up,it is usually only to a certain degree.
When this does happen,the manufacturer usually has the option of finding a supplier at a cheaper or same cost as their previous one.
If this is not possible,the company may go the route of more automation.While this may be more expensive at first,the cost is greatly reduced over the next few years by having less man power etc.
A job that may have taken 10 people may be done by machine and only take 2.
This is a big savings in just one area.
Lets go a little deeper,a job that took 25 people may be done by a machine with 4.
Look at the savings here.
Lets break this down a little more.
Fewer employess could mean:
1.less to pay in wages.
2.less to pay in workers comp.
3.less to pay for company insurance.
4.less to pay in employee health benefits.
5.less to pay in vacation time.
6.less to pay in un-employment insurance.
7.less to pay in company upkeep.
8.less to pay in company supplies that are used by employees.(restroom supplies etc.)
9.less time training,not as many openings with machines doing most of the work.
10.a more streamlined workforce means higher company profits.
motorguy222
While your anaylsis of how a company can save money is accurate, All I can say is that the way that Champ builds filters is labor intensive and has been that way since day 1. Champ was founded to provide employment for those in the local area.
They may be able to shave corners in non-production areas but the actual assembly line still takes the same number of employees.
And while OEM's will send their standard letters of a 25% cost decrease over 5 years..5% per year..just how long do you think manufacturers can keep that up? Personally I don't recall any cost decreases at all to the OEM's.
Steel prices have gone from $40 per ton to near $500 in the last 3 years. So pray tell, how does one compensate for that? And there are projections of a 25% increase in steel this year.
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Phoenix:
"The best reported filters here are also the ones who don't spend tons of money on advertising.
When was the last time anyone saw a Wix ad on tv?
Baldwin?
How about Motorcraft"
Wix sponsors racing or haven't you noticed? Their NASCAR sponsorship probably runs in the neighborhood of 25-30 million per year. If you buy a Wix product, you're paying for it.
Wix also makes NAPA, which sponsors Nascar racing. And although "Wix" isn't responsible for the Napa racing dollars, they do manufacture more NAPA filters than Wix brand. and the selling price of NAPA filters is impacted by their advertising budget..
Same as Purolator and their Nascar racing.
Motocraft has a Nascar sponsorship.
Baldwin sponsor a race car as well. I think in the truck series. But then again, they aren't interested in selling automotive filters as a "Baldwin" brand. They are a heavy duty filter company.
Fram does the most racing sponsorship, in all series... probably to the tune of 75 million.
It isn't just tv ad's that are part of advertising.
But all advertising dollars impact the price of the goods.
I hope I didn't twist your "meaning" again..
------------------------------
John W. Colby
Filters cut open or not cut open----it's the same for all brands.
I have stated before that the total percentage of filters cut open is small compared to the 400 million or so on the roads--of all brands.
However, those that are cut open is a representative sample for the manufacturer in question. ALL filter companies have their filters cut open from field tests.
As for an individual consumer, that's up to them isn't it. If someone trades their car every 3-4 years, they usually don't care. And the next person pays the price.
If it's a lease car that's rotated out every year or two..to most of them..who cares. The second owner might.
---------------------------------------------
I'll give everyone another personal experience.
I know of two distributors who import Japanese makes of vehicles ( outside the USA). And between 1/3 to 1/2 of them all need their oil pan dropped and the sludge cleaned out of the oil pan before they would sell the car to one of their customers.
Why, one might ask? These are employees cars who sell them at about 2 years and get a new vehicle.
What I was told by the two distributors is that for company employees in Japan who routinely sell their cars every 2 years, they NEVER change their oil. All they do is top their oil off when it gets low, change the filter once a year and then sell the car on. They told me that the cars engine area was kept clean. The interior was spotless. But the idea of oil change maintenance was something they didn't worry about.
Now consider those same employees who get to come to the USA to work a 2 years shift before returning home. And you just might be buying one of their "company" cars. Their mentality on maintenance is different than ours.
But you're not to worry, you got a great price on your used car. And if the filter fails because of sludge in the oil...well the filter is supposed to be bullet proof.
While your anaylsis of how a company can save money is accurate, All I can say is that the way that Champ builds filters is labor intensive and has been that way since day 1. Champ was founded to provide employment for those in the local area.
They may be able to shave corners in non-production areas but the actual assembly line still takes the same number of employees.
And while OEM's will send their standard letters of a 25% cost decrease over 5 years..5% per year..just how long do you think manufacturers can keep that up? Personally I don't recall any cost decreases at all to the OEM's.
Steel prices have gone from $40 per ton to near $500 in the last 3 years. So pray tell, how does one compensate for that? And there are projections of a 25% increase in steel this year.
---------------------------------
Phoenix:
"The best reported filters here are also the ones who don't spend tons of money on advertising.
When was the last time anyone saw a Wix ad on tv?
Baldwin?
How about Motorcraft"
Wix sponsors racing or haven't you noticed? Their NASCAR sponsorship probably runs in the neighborhood of 25-30 million per year. If you buy a Wix product, you're paying for it.
Wix also makes NAPA, which sponsors Nascar racing. And although "Wix" isn't responsible for the Napa racing dollars, they do manufacture more NAPA filters than Wix brand. and the selling price of NAPA filters is impacted by their advertising budget..
Same as Purolator and their Nascar racing.
Motocraft has a Nascar sponsorship.
Baldwin sponsor a race car as well. I think in the truck series. But then again, they aren't interested in selling automotive filters as a "Baldwin" brand. They are a heavy duty filter company.
Fram does the most racing sponsorship, in all series... probably to the tune of 75 million.
It isn't just tv ad's that are part of advertising.
But all advertising dollars impact the price of the goods.
I hope I didn't twist your "meaning" again..
------------------------------
John W. Colby
Filters cut open or not cut open----it's the same for all brands.
I have stated before that the total percentage of filters cut open is small compared to the 400 million or so on the roads--of all brands.
However, those that are cut open is a representative sample for the manufacturer in question. ALL filter companies have their filters cut open from field tests.
As for an individual consumer, that's up to them isn't it. If someone trades their car every 3-4 years, they usually don't care. And the next person pays the price.
If it's a lease car that's rotated out every year or two..to most of them..who cares. The second owner might.
---------------------------------------------
I'll give everyone another personal experience.
I know of two distributors who import Japanese makes of vehicles ( outside the USA). And between 1/3 to 1/2 of them all need their oil pan dropped and the sludge cleaned out of the oil pan before they would sell the car to one of their customers.
Why, one might ask? These are employees cars who sell them at about 2 years and get a new vehicle.
What I was told by the two distributors is that for company employees in Japan who routinely sell their cars every 2 years, they NEVER change their oil. All they do is top their oil off when it gets low, change the filter once a year and then sell the car on. They told me that the cars engine area was kept clean. The interior was spotless. But the idea of oil change maintenance was something they didn't worry about.
Now consider those same employees who get to come to the USA to work a 2 years shift before returning home. And you just might be buying one of their "company" cars. Their mentality on maintenance is different than ours.
But you're not to worry, you got a great price on your used car. And if the filter fails because of sludge in the oil...well the filter is supposed to be bullet proof.
I was using Fram for a long time.
Now it's MoCraft FL820-S and AC-Delco PF-59 all the way.
Now it's MoCraft FL820-S and AC-Delco PF-59 all the way.
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Why? Lubeowner is in a unique environment to collect failed filters. We have plenty here that open many (or all) of their filters. How is one extremely high volume source ..with no statistical indexing for failure rate worth anything compared to a near 100% non-failure rate in lower volume sources?? How many out of 1000? 2000? You don't know? So far we've seen (I think I linked all the pictures) about 30 -40 images.
No, you give me a break.
You guys are never going to agree with each other, so why keep arguing?
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wayne, this isn't about filters. It's a lesson in social dynamics. Some of us like to argue. Some have refined the art of it where they make concession where it is due. Others have the insatiable need to "win" ..by hook or crook or whatever. Others like to "scatter" ..or employ "shaken, not stirred" techniques".
As I said, this is entertainment. It isn't the topic that is important ..it's the personalities and the interesting modalities that they employ in achieving their goals ...or stiffling others in achieving theirs.
At this point it's a game of assertiveness and tenacity. Certain people are into scores
It's a show.
Otherwise, I'm at a loss of how to stop it without restricting the small amount of information that can actually be exchanged here. Every thread gets highjacked and on it goes. As long as everyone can keep the insults to a minimum ...then the thing gets locked after it's gotten boring ..and we wait for the next one.
In fact, wayne, your post is probably the cue that this thread has run its course.
As I said, this is entertainment. It isn't the topic that is important ..it's the personalities and the interesting modalities that they employ in achieving their goals ...or stiffling others in achieving theirs.
At this point it's a game of assertiveness and tenacity. Certain people are into scores
It's a show.
Otherwise, I'm at a loss of how to stop it without restricting the small amount of information that can actually be exchanged here. Every thread gets highjacked and on it goes. As long as everyone can keep the insults to a minimum ...then the thing gets locked after it's gotten boring ..and we wait for the next one.
In fact, wayne, your post is probably the cue that this thread has run its course.
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